We received these responses to The Issues of Life from Bruce:
Jesus is not God……and an invented human……. He never existed
And:
i masterbate to Mary
Victor’s reply:
Bruce, we are not talking Catholicism or religion of any kind. We are speaking reality. We are speaking truth. Jesus said, “You will know the truth and the truth will make you free. When I make you free, you will be free indeed.”
Even many of those who do not profess Christ admit that He did indeed exist. There is too much evidence for anyone but a fool to deny it. Even unbelieving Jewish historians and pagans have made reference to Him. You do not present any substance for your statements. You express mere opinion, which is never good enough anywhere, in Heaven or on earth.
The Bible is also a solemn and sure record, historically, archaeologically, intellectually, socially, and especially spiritually. Many hundreds of thousands have gladly laid down their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ, knowing Him to be the Savior of the world sent to bring life. Many lives have been changed for the better, much better… life from the dead.
We have that life now, know it, and share it with those who do not. Obviously, by your ignorance and coarse language, you are in death and not life. In the Name of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior of all mankind and very God, I come against the evil spiritual powers that bind you. I come against you, spirits; I rebuke you sharply and call on Heaven to disband and ban you to the pit. Lord, thank You for this power and awesome privilege. Your perfect will be done.
Victor
Bruce’s reply:
Frankly, I believe the God of the bible is a horrible, evil, hypocritical,sexist, racist, and mind-boggling figment of the imagination of the irrational human psyche. In regards to your comment as to the validly of the bible, particularly its historical truth,,,,,I implore you to wake up. From it’s very first lie, historical accuracy has never been a motive, or implicit aim of the bible. Did God create the earth in six days and then rest on the seventh. Did one day mean 1000 years 1000000 million. How have you twisted this superstition explanation of life to be a reflection of a greater truth. As I am civil, and do not wish to offend you, I apologize about my “masturbation” comments. I made them only because I suspect Mary a) either does not care in heaven, and is praying for my soul….as a good loving Christian or b) she dead, and have not the ability of cognition, as her particles (energy) has been disbursed long ago.
I hope we can continue to conversed, if I am convinced of Jesus and your God I will gladly convert to avoid the burning fire of hell, with flying human like reptiles/bad angels fanning the flames.
MY TRUTH IS THIS HOWEVER: IF CHRISTIANS TRULY BELIEVED IN GOD/JESUS/HEAVEN AND HELL……….AS A DECENT HUMAN BEING…WHICH I FIND MUST CHRISTIANS ARE NOT…………………..THEY SHOULD COMMIT THIER SOUL, AND SOUL DUTY SHOULD BE……TO DO EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO ENSURE THOSE THEY LOVED…….AND ALSO THEIR NEIGHBORS (AS GOD COMMANDMENT) HELL WILL BE THEIR FATE IF THEY DON’T CONVERT. IN ESSENCE, BEGGING THEM, CRYING, AND PLEADING WITH THEM EVERY WAKING MOMENT TO BECOME CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, JEWISH……….WHATEVER RELIGION WAS NECESSARY IN THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF TRUTH TO GET TO HEAVEN. AS I THINK EVEN THE RELIGIOUS CAN CONCEDE THAT THE LIFE SPAN OF A HUMAN IS INFINITELY SMALLER, AND LESS WORTHY OF AN ETERNITY IN BLISS.
Furthermore, I will tell you this: I am no demon, no angel, and I’m not out to send you to hell. This email is coming from a decent, kind, loving, empathetic human being. A human who believes that our religions are not a reflection of God as I perceive Him to be (the word Him also being an unintended insulst). Yes, that’s right I believe that Atheism is more illogical, and irrational then western religions.
We can only assume that a) we have limits to our knowledge and understanding of the Universe, by or nature b) we have not come close to realizing our potential c) we evolved over time (blink of an eye) and have a long way to go d) that life alone is a blessing from our creator e) we should assume this is it and begin to have true love and compassion for our fellow humans, and mother earth which sustains us and all of Gods creations f) the idea God posed as a human for 35 years in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years, and on one planet in an infinite number is an insult and self defeating…….
I’m not a demon, and I rebuke myself in the name of jesus Christ abogarogdogabooodalooli (speaking in tongues) I hope you can discern it….
Save me from the buring ambers of Hell, please I beg you….. or at least help me understand where your coming from? Why you believe what you do ? What is your history, were you born into a Chrstian family, or society ? Did you have a vision or were you choosen as you claim and had an epiphany like I did when I was 17, staring into the clouds.
“Lord, thank-you for this power, and awsome privilige”.
Bruce Tonkin
Victor’s reply:
Hi Bruce,
I am able to say that I have true, not religious or bigoted, answers for your objections and questions, and I am still willing to address them. However, seeing you ask me what my experience has been, I ask you at this point to go to our site and read about it. Go to Our Testimonies to start. You may also read The Good News, The True Marks of a Cult, and Here Is the Way It Is. There is much more you can read, of course, but let us start there and see if you are interested in who we are and, more importantly, Whom we represent.
For now, know that you have a mixture of ideas and notions borrowed from wherever, and very little of it is true. Your conception of the God of the Bible could not be further from the truth, I guarantee you. Your life’s condition and course, determined by conclusions based on errors and false information, is not good. Would you not agree? Yet that is the way it is with the vast majority of people, including, yes, most of those who believe they have the answers. It will be for you to decide whether God has truly favored us with truth and life or not, and whether you are prepared to listen and partake. Truly, without His grace, your decision is vain. I know mine was.
Bruce, we look forward to hearing from you soon.
Victor
Bruce wrote to Paul:
Paul,
The name Paul, how befitting. Paul was the Mohammed of Islam, the Saint of Christian Saints….If he had not traveled to the Mediterranean, and convinced the depraved there was something better awaiting in “heaven”, I suspect Christianity would not be practice today. Christianity would have been a long forgotten Jewish sect/cult. Paul, in essence, created a movement that had Constantine, the King Pagan seeing crosses on the battlefield, and convinced of Christianity, and its usefulness in controlling the masses. You need only examine the Nicene Creed and compare it’s doctrine with early Christianity (before the establishment of Christianity as the state religion of Rome,) or examine the Bible itself, to elucidate this point. You should also know that the Nicene Creed established the Trinity as biblical revelation, by reading "between the lines" to find its hidden truth. Thus, you believe God, the Tri-Omni meant to confuse His flock from the inception of this, and every other religion. However, if we are to be fair: is it not absurd to believe this Tri-Omni, loving, just God would confuse his flock and doctrine? If the Tri-Omni, Tri-present “God” was to be so mischievous, would he then not constitute His own self-defeating proposition (think about that carefully). Clearly, God of the Bible makes a point to reinterate that He is a just and loving God, who makes His covenants and truths very clear (and masculine if you haven’t caught on by now). I will save you the trouble in our forthcoming correspondence, of trying to explain of this Double-Tri-Absurdity. You already know it is impossible to provide a rational explanation! I believe sticking with the Christian maxim of “some things can’t be explained, but felt spiritually” is best applied here. To anyone who has even a remote understanding of the Bible, the Trinity is ironically, heresy.
On a separate note, I did not jest when I said I had a neurotic teenage epiphany myself, as I stared into the clouds searching God (of the Bible). My ignorance of the complexity and enormity of the Universe was appeased by the false notion God conveyed truth through the clouds, and their complexity. My ignorant teenage conclusion was there has to be God, and He is air apparent in nature, particularly the clouds. (no pun intended) As my neurosis was fanned by church conditioning, and indoctrination, so too did the grandiose nature of Gods revelations appear to me. I could eventually picture Jesus in heaven, with large number worshiping him in white robes. It was a blessing, a gift, a sneak peak if you will; whereby, Jesus was beckoning me to service. I once anointed every door in my high-rise building, in order to send the Holy Spirit towards the unbelievers, in an attempt to save their souls from the burning depths of hell. I also believed in Angels (although their purpose is still unclear to me, as God is all-powerful). Oh yes I forgot, it was the concentration of the Holy Spirit that brought the angels down from the heavenly “skies”.
I was continually told by the church that many are called but very few except their calling (see Ecclesiastes, I cannot remember the chapter). Ironically, as people were dropping like mental patients from the holy spirit, and speaking in tongues, I became quickly aware of the brainwashing, and irrationality of religion. Further, the corruption of the Church was abundantly clear when “gifted pastors” were receiving discernable truth from the mumbles of severally sick and demented individuals. In truth, I have always thought the above mentioned behaviors were indications of straightforward and implicit insanity. However, to my benefit I eventually came to the realization that I too was a nut, and no different from the nuts who acted out seizures in order to show Gods power, or rather how close Gods power was to them. It became abundantly clear that I suffered from what can be referred to as a form of mass-hysteria, and egomania. A phenomenon that is commonly associated with the statistical propensity for teenage religiosity. I was even bamboozled into believing that the end times were upon us, the Great Lord Jesus, human messiah turned son/sun-God by pagans would have an imminent return to earth. As an impressionable teenager, made to believe he was chosen by God, destined to bliss, and communicating with the creator of the Universe, it was very hard to snap back into reality and rid myself of this nasty neurosis. In effect, every time I tried to question doctrine I either convinced myself it was the devil at work, or that I was being manipulated by the devil as manifest in absolutely anything anti-Christ. That is, science, your best friend, absolutely anything was demonic if it worked against my religiosity, and neurosis. I was even carefully conditioned to rebuke these “evil” thoughts in the name of Christ. And of coarse God could only hear, and protect me if I said his name (Christ). Wow! Irrespective of your denomination, or minor nuances, I already know my experience bears a striking resemblance to your current state of belief. And no I’m not the devil.
It may be difficult to think rationally, or objectively about religion but I implore you to step back a re-read this. I took the time to explain my history, in order to enlighten you. Remember, we are all human and suffer uniformly with the same juvenile urges and desires. Stop wasting your precious life on irrational fantasies. As I stated in our previous communication, I cannot prove God exists yet it is still more logical to me, or (innate to the human condition) to believe that something binds the Universe, and is above our level of perception, permanently. It is this “God” I believe, who created the vast universe, and started the clock in motion; whereby eons later galaxies have appeared and our planet developed life, gradually to its current state where (we) human, mammal, earthlings have the power of cognition. We have been endowed with advanced cognition to the extent that we (by our nature) ask the questions of life and existence, and search for the truth. God may play an active role, or he may not; however, the blessing remains, and it is consciousness. If there is a hereafter, it cannot be explained by any foreseeable improvements in scientific understanding. That is, it is self-evident that the brain is the mechanism for perception and cognition, and responds to stimuli as other animals do, however complex those interactions may be.
Paul, it is the year 2001 and we must start to progress. It is only you who can cure yourself of this innate neurosis, and help fight the widespread hysteria of organized religion, and its utilization of the pervasive fear of death, and the unknown. By accepting your ignorance in relation to the vast Universe, you will rid yourself of this great fear, and ego-centric lie. The earth is not at the center of the Universe, and we are only slightly different than the chimpanzee.
Sincerely,
Bruce Tonkin
Paul’s reply:
Bruce,
Only the sincere seeker of truth will be brought through the confusion of men’s religions and doctrines, such as the pagan inspired “trinity.” There is nothing self-defeating about what God does, though it is impossible for the carnal mind, no matter how clever or seemingly “logical,” to comprehend it. It is also not a matter of “feeling” it, as you say. We do not feel these things; we know them. We can articulate them, and have. Our website is full of the knowledge of the Lord, and it is at your disposal. Are you availing yourself of it, since we have directed you to specific documents that answer your ignorant assumptions about what and Whom we preach?
But unless you have the spiritual faculty with which to receive truth, it is no different than trying to teach calculus to a dog, except that the dog does not presume to understand and insist that he knows better!
As for your religious epiphany, we did not think you were jesting. Thank you for sharing more of your experience. No, it is not the same as what we had. Not in the least. You had an emotional and delusional experience, whereas we were apprehended by God. The counterfeit (your delusional beliefs) does not disprove the real (true faith). We were not taught in the churches of men, and we did not take any man’s word for what we know; we are in fellowship with God outside of men’s religions. This is not imaginary, leading to vain and silly things like anointing doors or dropping like mental patients. He has kept us for over 60 years combined, day-in and day-out, doing wonderfully in our everyday lives.
Since you have not had our experience, you cannot recognize what we have. Your world is colored by a false experience, which, amazingly enough, you even admit, yet you think it qualifies you to judge everything! You are yet in delusion, friend. I say that as your friend.
We personally know the living Lord Jesus Christ and He is not at all what you describe in your religious experience; He is also not what you ascribe to us and Him (by virtue of His presence in our lives). Not in the very least.
While it was good to come out of your delusion, in some respects it seems only to have been out of the frying pan and into the fire. You certainly have no rest or peace in your current condition. You are agitated, bitter, cynical, and arrogant regarding things of which you have no knowledge or firsthand experience. Although I am not committing to anything, I think you could benefit greatly from meeting us in person and spending some time working on our farm. You are yet neurotic, unbalanced, unreal, and ultimately unhealthy. I am not slamming you, Bruce. I describe what I see. Truly, I have pity on you. Not that I am better than you, though I am certainly better off.
In your last paragraph you write:
“Paul, it is the year 2001 and we must start to progress.”
Was that a typo [this conversation took place after 2004], or are you sending me a personalized form letter you use for people you deem to be religious fundamentalists? I can ask that question because you clearly have not delved into or understood what we affirm. That is typical of people who send form letters.
“It is only you who can cure yourself of this innate neurosis, and help fight the widespread hysteria of organized religion, and its utilization of the pervasive fear of death, and the unknown.”
If you had been paying attention to The Issues of Life, of which you are critical without knowing what you criticize, you would know that we refute the lies and darkness that comes in the Name of Christ, besides all others that deny His sovereignty and goodness towards man. You would know that we are preaching Jesus Christ, Who is Life and the cure for all fears including fear of death, even the cure for death itself.
“By accepting your ignorance in relation to the vast Universe, you will rid yourself of this great fear, and ego-centric lie.”
Physician, take your own prescription.
“The earth is not at the center of the Universe, and we are only slightly different than the chimpanzee.”
Man likes to think he is the center. That is his problem. Though made in the image of God, which can be said of no other animal, he is cut off in his self-importance.
“Man in honor, but without understanding, is like the animals; they shall perish” (Psalms 49:20 MKJV).
Is that where you wish to remain?
“Be not like the horse, or like the mule, who have no understanding, whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, so that they do not come near you” (Psalms 32:9 MKJV).
Contending for the faith in the Spirit of God, which is not one of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind,
Paul
Victor’s reply:
Hi Bruce, Victor here,
You did not indicate whether you red any of my proposed topics. I wrote: “Go to Our Testimonies to start. You may also read The Good News, The True Marks of a Cult, and Here Is the Way It Is.” If you had red these and considered responsibly, you would not have said many of the things you say in your second letter. Many of your points are moot. So you are either careless or only interested in what you have to say. Which is it? Will you answer my questions so that I can be assured you are “home” and that this is a two-way conversation?
Secondly, you make several false assumptions about what we know or believe. Why would you do that? There is a Biblical proverb well worth heeding by anyone, believer or otherwise:
“If one answers a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him” (Proverbs 18:13 MKJV).
Now we have two letters from you to address. I would like to begin by quoting those things you wrote in which you are right, starting with your first letter:
You say:
“IF CHRISTIANS TRULY BELIEVED IN GOD/JESUS/HEAVEN AND HELL……….AS A DECENT HUMAN BEING…WHICH I FIND MUST CHRISTIANS ARE NOT…………………..THEY SHOULD COMMIT THIER SOUL, AND SOUL DUTY SHOULD BE……TO DO EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO ENSURE THOSE THEY LOVED…….AND ALSO THEIR NEIGHBORS (AS GOD COMMANDMENT) HELL WILL BE THEIR FATE IF THEY DON’T CONVERT. IN ESSENCE, BEGGING THEM, CRYING, AND PLEADING WITH THEM EVERY WAKING MOMENT TO BECOME CHRISTIAN …”
I will qualify your statement as to with what I agree. I agree that if Christians truly believed in an eternal torment for the unsaved, they should be doing all they can to save them, Lord willing. If the Lord is not willing, then they should not be doing anything contrary to His will. Now, if He is not willing, then we have ourselves a problem as to the kind of God we have. However, the True God is not that kind of god. The Bible says:
“The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9 MKJV).
If God is not willing that any should perish, why would He not want Christians to warn everybody night and day, using all available means to save the majority of mankind from eternal torment, everlasting hell? That is because there is no such thing as an everlasting hell, certainly not as people have conceived it. Therefore there is no need for such a drastic concerted effort on the part of Christians.
However, millions of “Christians” teach and profess to believe in eternal torment, that is, an intense suffering that never ends, an everlasting hell (of fire), and one from which the subject may never be released. This makes them hypocrites (and calloused murderers, as far as I am concerned), that they should be able to view their families, friends, and neighbors as they do, “knowing” their horrible fate, and doing nothing about it. On the contrary, they jump into bed with their wives and husbands, drink, go to movies, watch TV, play cards, and whatever else.
So, Bruce, while you are right in some of what you say, you are beating a dead horse where we are concerned. You will find that we are not guilty of many of your accusations.
Furthermore, it is sadly true that “most Christians are not decent human beings.” The Bible says that no human beings are decent:
“As it is written: There is none righteous, no not one; there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their way, and the way of peace they did not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes’” (Romans 3:10-18 MKJV).
However, the sin is not that they (Christians) are not decent human beings, but that they claim they are:
“Jesus said to them, ‘If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see. Therefore your sin remains’” (John 9:41 MKJV).
A final point in your above statement: Religion will save nobody from eternal torment or anything else. Religion puts people in hell and torment. Jesus Christ, however, is the only hope of salvation and life for us. Therefore, Islam or Judaism or Buddhism or any other religion will not suffice, not even Christianity as a religion, as you know it.
You write: “I am no demon, no angel, and I’m not out to send you to hell.”
I agree. I know that.
You write: “Yes, that’s right I believe that Atheism is more illogical, and irrational then western religions.”
I agree, I think. It depends on what aspects, however. I don’t know how much it matters. Both are wrong, but the Bible does say this:
“The fool has said in his heart, There is no God! They acted corruptly; they have done abominable works, there is none who does good” (Psalms 14:1 MKJV).
On the other hand, it also says:
“You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble” (James 2:19 MKJV).
The Pharisees seemed quite logical in their beliefs (they prayed, gave alms to the poor, shared their knowledge, etc.), but they are also the ones who crucified the Christ. Most who call themselves Christians do not believe or, if they do, they believe as the devils believe.
Continuing in those things on which you and I agree, you write:
“We can only assume that a) we have limits to our knowledge and understanding of the Universe, by or nature”
While I agree, it should not be assumed that we couldn’t be brought beyond the limits of those who have never known God. Please read Our Testimonies.
“We have not come close to realizing our potential”
True. Our potential can only be, and will be, realized in our Maker, Jesus Christ.
“that life alone is a blessing from our creator”
I agree, if by “alone” you mean, “That in itself is a blessing.” If you say that only life is a blessing, meaning this life, I disagree.
“We should assume this is it and begin to have true love and compassion for our fellow humans”
If by “this is it,” you mean that there is nothing beyond this life and mental consciousness, I disagree, but I can agree that we need to consider this life important; its purpose for the believer is to learn to love and have compassion. God’s purpose for the believer is to be formed into His image. However, only for those called can it be so. It is in God’s hands. If we try to assume the state of love and compassion, we only make a mockery of the true.
For example, Bruce, you tell me that you are a decent, kind, loving, empathetic human being, yet you wrote us a vile note, which was received by our webmistress. I see little decency, kindness, love, or empathy. Yes, you apologized, and we do accept your apology; by the knowledge we have been given by God, however, we know that you are not what you claim to be, and you also know it. You claim what you would like to be, knowing it would be good and desirable to be so, but if you were absolutely honest with us and with yourself, you would admit that you are not that kind of person. You know what? Nobody is. I gave you the Biblical indictment on all mankind. Look at this world! According to your philosophy of evolution and progress, we ought to be much better off, but we are not.
Now you may say, “According to your ‘Christian’ religion, we ought to be much better off, but we are not.” The creation of man in God’s image is in a process. We are at a stage of progress in which man is learning a very hard lesson, perhaps the hardest he will ever have to learn, and that is that he cannot, of his own power, be a decent, kind, loving, empathetic human being. You will also learn that lesson. For the moment, you condemn a huge segment of mankind as charlatans and fools, yet you praise yourself as you do so, as though you are wiser or more virtuous than they. That does not sound like decency, kindness, love, or empathy for fellow mankind, does it? Bruce, do you not see your contradiction?
“and mother earth which sustains us and all of Gods creations”
I suppose you mean we ought to have respect and care for the earth and all of God’s creation. If that is so, I agree, and rare are those who name the Name of Christ who do so. However, I do not refer to earth as my “mother,” seeing it is God Who is my Father and the Church of God that is my mother. Those of the flesh go back to the earth from where they came, but those born of the Spirit go to God.
Now matters with which I agree in your second letter:
“Constantine, the King Pagan”
Yes, he was pagan to his grave.
“convinced of Christianity, and its usefulness in controlling the masses”
I agree that he was.
“the Nicene Creed established the Trinity as biblical revelation”
Yes, I believe they tried to do so, and they convinced many to this day. In truth, however, they did not establish that doctrine as Biblical, not while leaving the Bible unadulterated, in which case it would no longer be The Bible in perfection.
“Clearly, God of the Bible makes a point to reinterate that He is a just and loving God”
Yes, and He does not lie. Men lie. You lie. He does not lie.
Speaking of explaining the doctrine of the Trinity, you write:
“You already know it is impossible to provide a rational explanation!”
Indeed, we do. Why accuse us of trying or desiring to do so? Where are your love, kindness, compassion, and empathy?
“To anyone who has even a remote understanding of the Bible, the Trinity is ironically, heresy.”
Indeed, it is heresy, although many who have more than a remote understanding of the Bible do not know it is heresy. Furthermore, there really is no irony. There are many who believe the Bible and read the same one that others do, yet do not read the Trinity into it. However, I acknowledge that there is tampering to demonstrate or declare the Trinity in many translations.
“As my neurosis was fanned by church conditioning, and indoctrination, so too did the grandiose nature of Gods revelations appear to me.”
Yes, I can see that happening.
You refer to “irrationality of religion.”
Yes, it is quite irrational indeed. Religion is the madness of man creating God in his own image.
“It became abundantly clear that I suffered from what can be referred to as a form of mass-hysteria, and egomania.”
Yes, indeed, this is very common in religion; prevalent, in fact. I have been there.
You write:
“It may be difficult to think rationally, or objectively about religion but I implore you to step back a re-read this.”
You have implored, and I have granted your request.
You write:
“As I stated in our previous communication, I cannot prove God exists yet it is still more logical to me, or (innate to the human condition) to believe that something binds the Universe, and is above our level of perception, permanently. It is this ‘God’ I believe, who created the vast universe…”
And: “God may play an active role”
Yes, you are right that it is more logical that there is a Creator God, and there is. He does play an active role. We know Him. May we enlighten you? Whether sincerely or tongue-in-cheek, you have asked us to do so.
Finally, you write: “If there is a hereafter, it cannot be explained by any foreseeable improvements in scientific understanding.”
That is true. Man is of the earth, earthy. He is quite incapable of determining that which is spiritual, unless pigs can fly. Why do you look to science, a vastly inferior ability of a creature, instead of considering the possibility that if One can be so intelligent and powerful as to create the universe, that He might also be capable of revealing to His creatures anything He pleases? He has done so for us in spite of man’s religion, weaknesses, and “neuroses.”
Contending earnestly for the genuine faith once delivered to the saints,
Victor
Bruce’s reply:
As you have had the decency to read my letters, I will do the same with your testimonials. I will do so with an open mind. I will get back to you when I am finished. Henceforth, I will attempt to reduce my natural inclination to be sarcastic. I hope that you believe I have been honest with you, however presumptuous I may appear. Please believe that I hold strong ethical convictions, and that they require a forthright conveyance. I am pleased your response to my previous email was semi-rational (no-insult intended), and your attitude has humbled me. I will read the articles you suggested. However, be prepared that I will likely find them of no use. I can at least rest assured I will not end up in Hell if I do not see the Truth to your beliefs. What is the fate of non-believers, particularly me who was called to service, and rejected his christian duty, believing it to be a neurosis. Well, I have realized that some positive traits are evident in professied Christians, and that is a pleasant reminder.
Sincerely,
Bruce
P.S.
The two Proverbs that I partucuraly like are the following: “walk with the wise grow wise, a companion of fools suffers harm”, and “ The teaching of the wise takes a man from the snares of death”. Solomon was an interesting King. I found his thoughts and ideas, to be highly intelligent, particularly for that era.
Victor’s reply:
Thank you, Bruce, for your consideration. You write (likely tongue-in-cheek, but I shall respond as though you were serious):
“What is the fate of non-believers, particularly me who was called to service, and rejected his christian duty, believing it to be a neurosis.”
You rejected that which was false, and you can be thankful that God delivered you from it. He has left many others in that delusion to serve their time to the full. He had different plans for you. He will also deliver them in the fullness of time. It is written:
“And then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of His presence, him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie, that they may be judged–all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness” (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 YLT).
That man of sin is within each and every person; it is each and every person, and God will take care of him in each of us in our turn. You chose not to believe the lie. That speaks better for you than for some who are quite satisfied believing it, not that your virtue will win the day; you don’t have any, none of us does. Isaiah says our righteousnesses are as filthy menstrual rags. Only Christ’s righteousness will avail and prevail.
We expectantly await your letter, Bruce.
Victor
Bruce’s reply:
I will read what I promised, as I have read the passages below.I am certainly not trying to be cheeke. I think it better I read everything tommorow when I am fresh…..I used the word neurosis by the way…..in the Freudian tradition of the word, particularly whe applied to religion. I am attempting to be “fair”. I hope you will read carefully, and respect the right to our opinion in future correspondance. In doing so, both you and I, should avoid the passive aggresive, antagonistic approach. I do wish to be “saved” if that is possible, and sincerely wish in the end to establsih a common ground, or respect, if you will. You are a litaralist, and that is a start. I believe it is important to be straightforward, and completely dedciated to ones religion. Not to pick and choose what best fits them for instance, and call that “Christianity”. The question of creation, as it was earlier mentioned, will be my first sincere question. What is your interpretation…….Well I should at least get started on some of the testemonials tonight.
(I didn’t go through the spell check…to tired)
Good-night.
Bruce
Bruce replied again, six months later:
I have finally completed reading the various items you provided…
…and unfortunetly this is my sincere response, and I do so with no disrespect intended.
At this point I know that I know nothing. With or limited faculties, and the surprising increase in knowledge throughout recorded history, it is safe to say that current scientific, or “objective” fact is mere conjecture. In fact, I think even the greatest ideas are limited notions, handicapped by the capacity (or incapacity) of the human brain. We, like other mammals, have evolved (recently) to have an innate awareness of our existence in relation to the Universe. We (humanity) have merely reached the capacity whereby we are certain, and fearful of a certain physical death; accordingly, humans have invented religion, and God to deal with our innate inability to overcome, or comprehend the essence of life, how it started, or where it will end. In retrospect, we are incapable of understanding anything non linear. It is my opinion that as it says in the bible, “the dead have no memory”. We are simply an evolution of life itself, from primordial ooze, to amphibians, to cognizant primates.
Bruce
Paul’s reply:
Hi Bruce,
You are right that man is fearful of death. That goes for all men, whether religious or not. The only ones who are free of this fear are those in Christ. I am not just talking about fear of physical death, but of the very real death of being separated from this world while being in it. Only those who identify with God through Christ, standing outside of this world and its systems (particularly its religious systems) by the faith that is in Him, are truly delivered from fear of death, because having died.
That is how Jesus Christ lived and walked on this earth, and all those in Him are empowered to do the same. We have died, being crucified with Him, and are raised from the dead by His resurrection life and power. It is the very opposite of what you say. We are delivered from religion and all bondage of fear through Christ, the living God. We have no fear except of Him, which is reverence, the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.
So if man has invented religion that has not delivered him from his fears, Who can it be but God Who has actually accomplished what is impossible for men?
Victor’s reply:
Hi Bruce,
Paul has answered much of what you say, and, if you are still uncertain of our position, you could read his letter again, as well as our writings at The Path of Truth. You have been more attentive, respectful, and responsible than many of the religious, nominal Christians who think they know much but know nothing. I believe you when you say you intend no disrespect.
I hope you have red Our Testimonies, primarily because I want you to know that while you are right about this dimension of existence, saying, “we are incapable of understanding anything non linear,” you are not right in principle. There is another world, another life, another dimension, the Kingdom of God, that being in the living Jesus Christ, Who clearly stated, “I am the Resurrection and the Life.” He was speaking of a present (both time and space) reality. Paul the apostle said this:
“We speak about the mystery of God’s wisdom. It is a wisdom that has been hidden, which God had planned for our glory before the world began. Not one of the rulers of this world has known it. If they had, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory. But as Scripture says: ‘No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love Him.’ God has revealed those things to us by His Spirit. The Spirit searches everything, especially the deep things of God” (1 Corinthians 2:7-10 GW).
You wrote: “Paul, it is the year 2001 and we must start to progress,” and, “We are simply an evolution of life itself, from primordial ooze, to amphibians, to cognizant primates.”
As you should be able to tell, this world draws to a close, and the signs are everywhere, scientifically. There is no sure proof of the theory of evolution, but there is all-encompassing and pervasive evidence or manifestation of regression or devolution. While there are sure indications of adaptation, there is no example of progression from one species to another or even within the same species. On the contrary, everything is declining, not even remaining unchanged. Many species have disappeared, the planet is polluted as never before (that we know of), and all is wearing out; for example, the electromagnetism of the earth can only support life for another 800 years, according to some scientists.
We are now on the brink of annihilation through nuclear warfare, a scenario of which the devout Muslims are not only unafraid, but to which they are eagerly looking forward. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran, along with many other Muslims, sincerely and solemnly believes that by turning the world into a chaotic mess in warfare against the West, he will usher in the 12th and final Imam who will introduce a new world order under Allah, while those who have sacrificed their lives in the enterprise automatically qualify for paradise. How can they lose? They have incentive! The Catholics in times past have been no better.
Here is what Jesus Christ had to say concerning the state of the world at the end time (as you likely know):
“But God has already reduced the number of days; had He not done so, nobody would survive. For the sake of His chosen people, however, God will reduce the days” (Matthew 24:22 GNB).
You write: “The question of creation, as it was earlier mentioned, will be my first sincere question. What is your interpretation…?”
Please read (without taking it personally) Theories of Evolution – The Vain Imaginations of Fools.
You write: “I believe it is important to be straightforward, and completely dedciated to ones religion. Not to pick and choose what best fits them for instance, and call that ‘Christianity’.”
Religion is not what it is all about. That has been the bane of all men. Many Muslims are dedicated to their religion. Many Catholics are devoted to their paganism, as are so many other “Christian” entities. What good will it do or has it done? You are, however, correct in concluding that many believe fables and silly notions, and selfishly and ignorantly attribute them to Jesus Christ and the Bible, and somehow associate them with true worship of God.
You say, “In fact, I think even the greatest ideas are limited notions, handicapped by the capacity (or incapacity) of the human brain.”
You are right, Bruce.
Now allow me to correct you personally. You say, “At this point I know that I know nothing.”
Yet you contradict yourself by expressing all your theories, speculations, surmisings, and opinions, speaking as though you know and making judgments on what we do or do not know. False humility will never win the day. Either you know nothing or you know something. It is better for you to sincerely realize that you know nothing than for you to jump to unlearned conclusions, which at best lead nowhere, and at worst lead into a pit of loss, destruction, failure, and disappointment. The apostle Paul said this:
“And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has come to know nothing yet as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, this one has been known by Him” (1 Corinthians 8:2-3 EMTV).
Solomon said this:
“To have knowledge, you must first have reverence for the LORD. Stupid people have no respect for wisdom and refuse to learn” (Proverbs 1:7 GNB).
By God, by the Scriptures, and by firsthand experience, I know the truth of those words, as applied to me. Try reading The Purpose of Evil.
As you have not intended to be disrespectful, so with me. I have not meant to be offensive or contrary. I appreciate this conversation and the opportunity to talk with you.
Victor