A reader sent us the following note:
What do you have on Ray Prinzing, etc.?
I was visiting this site Rayprinzing.com and saw this.
“Ray’s writings are as important as those writings in the scriptures. Most scripture writings were designated by the writers name. So it is with Ray.”
So I sent the site admin this:
From: T Mac
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 8:15 PM
To: Caretaker
Subject: “Ray’s writings are as important as those writings in the scriptures.”
“Ray’s writings are as important as those writings in the scriptures.” Rayprinzing.com
Wow! What a statement. As important and God’s own Word. It is impossible to believe that your prayer on what to do with the web site and material was answered by God, considering the above statement of faith.
We can not do with out the scriptures.
We can do with out all other writings.
May God truly direct you in a more clear, straight, and narrow path.
Amen
He replied with the following below [in blue] and my green is my last reply. Not looking to get real deep into this with that site. But my parents are New Agers and love Ray Prinzing. They are lost. And they have taken my siblings with them down this path of universalism, new ageism, ecumenism, etc. And insight, assistance, or even rebuttal towards me is appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Peace and Blessings
Tim
(Click here to skip to Paul’s reply.)
From: caretaker
To: T Mac
Subject: RE: “Ray’s writings are as important as those writings in the scriptures.”
I prayed about what to do about your letter. For me it would have been just fine ignoring it, because if you are not in that frame of mind nothing I can say will change that view. My frame of mind is in the Scriptures where it belongs. I may be a novice where that belongs. I may not. But then this morning, I was filled with compassion, and I felt I needed to respond.
I am sorry if you were offended by what was written on the website. Actually, I am not offended. Simply sad. Sad that someone would use God and the perfectness of His gospels in order to elevate a simple man. Comparing man to God as any sort of equal has never and will never be true. But I stand on what I said to be true. EVERYONE as they take their place in the Kingdom of God, speak truths given by our Father. No, they don’t. Even the best of men are fallible. Period. You declared Prinzing equal to God. You declared his writings to be as important as God’s. You then followed it up with a statement about Scripture Writers in such a way as to sell P as a scripture writer. He is not. The learning, the revelation is still in effect until the last day. But the God inspired Word is complete. Do you think the truths of God ended because the bible was printed? New truths no in line with scripture? Yes. Unrevealed truths man has yet to learn? No. Every man’s live is a living epistle and a witness of God. So, we each add to the book? It is a living Word in the sense that we all add to it’s teachings and make them part of the Word and part of Salvation? Absolutely not. Each of our lives is a Chapter in the Lambs book of Life. For it is because of Christ in us that we have this hope of glory. Therefore as we find ourselves inspired by Christ, and we write concerning those truths that God gives to us through Christ, then our writings are too inspired by the Spirit of God, and the truths that are allowed to unfold and be shared with others, become light as God opens their hearts and minds to the truth and understanding. This is incorrect. The only Light Is God. Not incomplete man. We may be born again in the spirit, but our flesh is yet to be. Further, any one of us can be considered a ‘prophet’ in that we share and spread the Word. However, that falls dramatically short of your belief, and none of us can add to the Word. Else, God would be an Respecter of Persons.
The 7th day, Jews, JW’s, Catholics; to name a few, claim the same as you do for P. To have the Rosetta stone. That their way is the Only way. You may not verbally claim this for P, but your actions do, since you and P invalidate all the others because they do not line up with P at all. Per your beliefs, founded I know not where, but not on scripture, you would have to accept that P has additional divine Revelations. Thus, God IS in fact, a respecter of persons and did not give that Rosetta stone to the 7th dayers and Ellen G White/their prophet, JW’s, Mormons and their living prophets, etc., but instead actually gave it to P. Thus, P is a mouth piece for God providing new revelation for God to His people.
But this can not be. Because God is Not a respecter of persons, And because it is not of Personal Interpretation. And since P does not line up with the others claiming Personal Interpretation. Thus someone is wrong. Thus everyone but P is wrong. And if P can be shown to be wrong where scripture is concerned, he and you are proven incorrect in your beliefs. Are you willing to say that P is perfectly correct in all that he writes? Or does he get to clear up mistakes as he progresses?
That fact is that you have made P your idol. And because of that you are not standing on the foundation of Jesus, but on P’s foundation. And Prinzing is a man.
Further, with all your talk above about our epistles, our inspiration, our truths; how can you put P above yourself or me? I am here to correct your mistaken belief. If all you say is true, then I ‘may’ be as inspired or more then P was. You may be.
The Kingdom of God is built precept upon precept, and line upon line. Nothing is done away with or thrown out. I never implied that we should do away with the scriptures, or do away with Christ, or with God. Nor did I indicate that Ray was greater than all of this. No. But what you are saying is that with out scripture, we still have P and that is Just as Good. That is what you imply by your statement. Consider that to a new Child of God. Someone new to the faith, the teachings, the Word. What I said was that his writings were every bit of importance as the scriptures. Thus, we can do with out the scriptures. If they are every bit as important, and prior to P the scriptures were the only thing, then now, either we can dispense with them because we have P or since P’s teachings are newer they in fact carry more weight. Word for our times… Further, now P is every bit as important as God because God gave us the scriptures as our way to grow, learn, and join in a relationship with Him. Now you are saying that this relationship is imperfect with out P’s teachings because his teachings are not only valid, but Equal to the Word. You can not have it both ways. If one is equal to, then that automatically makes one of the two at a minimum potentially dispensable. I would say the same about J Preston Eby, and a few others in our day. These people are very careful not to take any credit for their selves, always deferring any praise or glory to God. For they write about God, and about Christ, not themselves. They know where their strength lies, and it is not within themselves, but with God, and our Savior Christ Jesus. So, why did you do the opposite of what you say they do? Why did you elevate P’s teachings to that of the scripture? Why did you equate God’s Word to be equal to Man’s Word? There is only one God. How many P’s are there over the generations? Do you see the problem? God is obfuscated by Man, elevated by other men. And thank God we do not do away with scripture. Because that is how we know the wolves from the sheep. We use the Word, the whole counsel of God to determine true and false teachers. But now that you have elevated P to the equal status of God’s Word, we can not consider anyone that disagrees with P as a wolf? Any one that stand strong and firm against a significant amount or any bit of P’s teachings is now a Wolf.
I do not think you have thought this through half as much as you think you have.
I think you fail to see that God needs No Man to write about Him, even in support, in order for God to carry out His Salvation Plan. And in fact, Man only and always distracts and compromises God’s Word. God’s Word is perfect. Man’s Never is. I know that. But your position is the opposite.
Do you think what Prinzing and Eby writes is any less inspired by God as was Paul? Absolutly! Paul came on the scene long after Christ died, yet his ministry takes up a huge portion of the New Testament. Jesus taught the Kingdom. Paul taught the Mystery. What does P teach? There are many through out the ages since that time who has had truth for their time, and it changed peoples lives. God always has a voice in every generation. Absolutely He does. And He tells us that Satan does as well. And that if they teach according to the scriptures all is well. But if it is of and for itchy ears it is Doctrine of Demons. And again, the only requirement is the Word. Faith through hearing that Word. Not by any other means. Not by any other man. And not through New Word. But now you have changed that. Now the tool of comparison can be the Word. But does not have to be, since P’s teachings are equal to them. Now we can use P’s teachings to find the wolfs and the DofD’s.
Those who are moving into the deeper realms of God understands this, and understands their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and knows where their life, their power, and their faith lies. Without God, without our Lord Jesus Christ, we are nothing. Everything comes from God; everything exists because of Him, and everything will return to Him. There is nothing that happens outside of God, and we are all contained within Him.
And now, there is something equal to God. RP. At least equal on where it matters in peoples day to day lives. Hours of P’s teachings, or hours in the bible? The former may be true or false. That latter Never is.
So what more can I say? There is nothing else to say. Either you understand or you don’t, but either way it does not really matter. If you are offended, you do not have to go on the site. If you think that because you object I will take it down, I have not received that word from God. Ray’s writings are a gift from God, and they open doors of understanding to many people. People who accept the writings for what they are, inspired by God for our day, our hour. Who would I be in God if I cowered every time someone said they didn’t like something; Am I to please man, or God? I stand on my belief in God, and I do as I hear my Father tell me to do.
And who told you they were inspired? Did that same entity tell you those that also claimed this status but were not? Does P claim his writings to be inspired by God and Equal to God? Or did you make this statement on your own through prayer?
You are responsible to God. That automatically implies that you are also responsible to other Children of God. You are telling and wanting every one to know the truth. That RP’s teachings are equal to God. This is patently false. P is not an idol. He is not to be set equal to God. RP is a man. And no man’s ways are God’s ways. We are all fallen and broken and seeking to be healed.
Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundations of the earth. He Is the Word. He was there before the beginning. The Word was before time. RP was not there, was not part of the Word.
Peace and Blessings
<— Blessings Charity Faith Hope Love —>
1Cr 13:13 “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these charity.”
Paul’s reply:
Hi Tim,
We have received your request for help and appreciate your conditions: “And insight, assistance, or even rebuttal towards me is appreciated.”
We don’t see any call for rebuttal, but there are some things you say that are in error. This is an excellent opportunity to correct those things, pointing out what is true and right and helping to direct you in the grace of God, so you might receive all of His counsel. After all, it is not our insights as men that will help you, but what we have as men of God that will. If, by the grace of God, you are open to that, you will surely be blessed by what we are given to say.
To answer your first question – “What do you have on Ray Prinzing?” – we can answer that we have enough to post him as a false teacher on our site. That hasn’t happened yet, but your letter helps serve as a catalyst to do that now [we do have him posted now – click here]. I have attached the file that contains our correspondence with Lenella Maxwell, who publishes Prinzing’s writings on the net. Did you know that she is the “caretaker” with whom you have been conversing? (We include her as a recipient of this correspondence.)
You will see that we are not judging Prinzing’s doctrines, but the man himself. Some of Ray’s doctrine was true, and we don’t dismiss those truths because he is found to be a false teacher. We have judged him by his fruits, the only true way to judge by the Lord and His commandment. And what Ray’s fruits tell us is that he walked in the ways of men, not in the ways of God. (For a practical overview of the difference between the two, see The True Marks of a Cult.)
In your criticism of Ray Prinzing, you have two major lines of thought, one true, one false.
The true line of thought is this, as expressed to Lenella:
“And if P can be shown to be wrong where scripture is concerned, he and you are proven incorrect in your beliefs.”
This is a true principle, as it is written:
“To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20 KJV).
But the converse is also true, and here is where you miss the mark. If we speak according to the Word of God, His Law and the prophets, then there is light in us. And if there is light in us, our testimony is of Christ, the Light of all men. And if our testimony is of Christ, then it is prophetic:
“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See, do not do it! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Revelation 19:10 MKJV).
And if our testimony is prophetic, it is not limited to what is written in the Bible. Jesus Christ’s mind, mouth, and hands by which He works, have not been shut down. He lives! He still has things to say and do (though not in conflict with anything He has said or done before).
Who will dare say that God is not actively involved in ruling over His creation and not particularly interested in, or available to, His children – those whom He has begotten for fellowship with Him?
What would make the testimony of Jesus Christ have less value today than at any other time? Do we not more urgently need to hear what the Spirit says today?
“While it is said, ‘Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation’” (Hebrews 3:15 MKJV).
Let me cite some specific things you have written, Tim, with more explanation of how you are denying the Lord speaking presently and are thereby cutting yourself off from hearing and obeying His voice. I begin with this:
“I think you fail to see that God needs No Man to write about Him, even in support, in order for God to carry out His Salvation Plan.”
It is true that no man can do the work of God, of himself, but it is also true that God always does His work through man, by His Spirit. The Bible was written by flesh and blood human beings, inspired by God. And what is recorded there? How God manifested Himself and worked through man.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached by flesh and blood human beings. As it is written:
Romans 10:14-17 MKJV
(14) How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without preaching?
(15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!”
(16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
(17) Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
So we see that Paul is not talking about the written Word, but the Word spoken by God’s ministers, those filled with His Spirit and sent to preach the Gospel. He also wrote about this to the Thessalonians:
“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when you received the Word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the Word of God, which effectually works also in you that believe” (1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV).
Paul was not preaching from the New Testament, because there was no such written work at the time. Paul and the saints were the New Testament. So it is today; the Body of Christ is the New Testament; His Body is Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh. Being of His Body, His flesh and blood, and members in particular, we speak in and by Him and bear witness of Him to the world. “The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy” (Revelation 19:10).
Are you not taking the position that there is no longer any possibility that the Word of God can be spoken to others by servants of God? That the testimony of Jesus Christ and the spirit of prophecy are quenched forever? The context of your words, “And again, the only requirement is the Word. Faith through hearing that Word. Not by any other means,” indicates you are limiting the Word to the ancient writings called the Bible. But the Word made flesh is alive and yet speaks today! You are effectively denying that reality, and you are denying yourself the potential privilege of hearing Him speak and knowing what He has to say to you personally.
How can He be your Savior if you don’t have this personal connection to Him? The Bible is not your Savior, and it doesn’t claim to be! You need to know what He has to say and requires of you, personally, as did Abraham; or how will you be saved? (Read Obedience.)
I am telling you in no uncertain terms that the God Who dwells in us and sends us to do His work today is in no way diminished from His former glory or power. He is still speaking and communicating with people, both directly and through His servants. We know this by personal experience, which agrees with the testimony of the saints recorded in the Bible.
The Message delivered by His servants will always be in harmony with the Bible, just as Christ and His apostles were in harmony with the Scriptures (the Tenach) that existed in their days. And as they were vehemently opposed and disbelieved by the religious custodians of the written Word in their day, so are those sent by God today opposed by Bible scholars and Bible thumpers. All those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, particularly from the religious who, with Bible in hand, crucified the Lord and martyred His servants, thinking to do God service. Our ministry and The Path of Truth website is a living testament to this reality.
Here is an exchange that showcases your error:
Caretaker: “But I stand on what I said to be true. EVERYONE as they take their place in the Kingdom of God, speak truths given by our Father.”
You: “No, they don’t. Even the best of men are fallible. Period. You declared Prinzing equal to God. You declared his writings to be as important as God’s.”
Were not the apostles who wrote the New Testament, fallible men? Were not the writers of the Old Testament and the prophets of old, fallible men?
James 5:16-18 MKJV
(16) Confess faults to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous one avails much.
(17) Elijah was a man of like passion as we are. And he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for the time of three years and six months.
(18) And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth caused its fruit to sprout.
Was Elijah causing it to rain by his own power or by the Word of God made flesh? You are looking to and seeing only man, but Jesus Christ comes in the flesh, and those in whom He now comes have much more than Moses or Elijah had, men who did many great things – Elijah didn’t even see death. This is not our opinion, but according to Jesus Christ Himself:
“For I say to you, Among those who are born of woman there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist. But he who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he” (Luke 7:28 MKJV).
How can you justify contradicting Jesus Christ, Whose prophets of old spoke the truth to the world, and how much more those sitting with Him in His Kingdom today, in this new dispensation of His Spirit (Ephesians 2:5)?
How can you say that those in His Kingdom are not speaking truths (or truth) from the Father?
“Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, unless he reveals His secret to His servants the prophets. The lion has roared. Who will not fear? The Lord GOD has spoken. Who can but prophesy?” (Amos 3:7-8 HNV)
Because God has given us His Spirit and shares His secret with us, causing us to prophesy, doesn’t mean that we are equal to God. Even Jesus, the Son of God, lowered Himself by taking on the form of a servant:
“For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:5-7 MKJV).
You are right in this respect, however: Those who pretend or assume to be His servants and are not (along with their supporters/promoters) are equating themselves to God, as it is written:
“Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 MKJV).
We know that Prinzing was not seated with Christ or testifying by His Spirit, so you are right that by calling his materials inspired, Lenella (“caretaker”) is equating him to God.
As you said to her: “You then followed it up with a statement about Scripture Writers in such a way as to sell P as a scripture writer. He is not.”
But then you err: “The learning, the revelation is still in effect until the last day. But the God inspired Word is complete.”
Of Jesus’ doings in the days of His flesh, it is written: “And there are also many things, whatever Jesus did, which, if they should be written singly, I suppose the world itself could not contain the books that would be written” (John 21:25 MKJV).
The Lord Jesus Christ, by His Spirit, spoke and did many more things after He ascended to Heaven as God Almighty (recorded in the Book of Acts, for examples) and still does them to this very day. Now I will ask you to read a detailed answer as to how and why you are wrong, and to read it with great attention and care (as you should read this letter):
In Defense of ExtraBiblical Inspiration
You also write: “The only Light Is God. Not incomplete man. We may be born again in the spirit, but our flesh is yet to be.”
Aren’t those who are born again (see The Baptism in the Holy Spirit) exhorted not to walk in the flesh?
“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof” (Romans 13:14 KJV).
Galatians 5:16-25 MKJV
(16) I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
(17) For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. And these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do.
(18) But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.
(24) But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
(25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
So if we walk in the Spirit of God, where is the condemnation? And who are you to deny or belittle or even underestimate what God does with His chosen vessels, whom He is not ashamed to call His brothers, because they are one with Him?
“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Romans 8:1 MKJV).
“For both He Who sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, ‘I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You’” (Hebrews 2:11-12 MKJV).
Giving us His Spirit and revelation does not make God a respecter of persons, any more than when He inspired those who wrote the Scriptures. That is faulty logic and just plain wrong. All we prove is that He is Lord, the One Who chooses whom He wills to glorify His Name!
This letter is an example of what I’m talking about, Tim. I am ministering the truth to you by capably explaining what the Scriptures are saying. And how does this happen? By Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh! It is only by His power and Spirit that any man can do such things. Flesh certainly can’t.
The Bible is a spiritual Book, which is closed to man without the Key of God’s spiritual revelation and understanding. Isn’t that what Paul was talking about to Timothy?
“Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth” (2 Timothy 2:15 MKJV).
(And if, like you say, man can’t speak the Word of God, because being flesh and blood, then how can he hear or receive it, being but flesh and blood?)
Timothy’s understanding didn’t come from his intellectual prowess, whereby he figured out what the Scriptures meant; and it didn’t come from taking seminary courses and learning from men; it came by the gift of God:
“Do not neglect the gift in you, which was given you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the body of elders” (1 Timothy 4:14 MKJV).
Timothy received this gift by the ministration of God’s servants. He also had a spiritual father in Paul, who raised and taught him in the faith. This explains how Timothy could rightly divide the Scriptures. But today, every person who has a Bible and a profession of faith thinks him or herself entitled to whatever beliefs or opinions they come up with, whether of themselves or co-opted from others. It is all works of the flesh and confusion, about which you are right, Tim, these have no right to equate themselves to the inspiration of the Spirit of God experienced by the authors of the Scriptures.
But don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, insisting that the inspiration and works of God have ceased forever because you have decided for Him that He can no longer manifest Himself to and through man. All of the Scriptures, with godly reason and truth, cry out against such a blasphemous notion. Declaring this position, aren’t you setting yourself up as a judge of right and wrong, just like those you criticize?
On a minor note, you also appear to err on what some call “universalism,” if you deny that God will reconcile all things to Himself. The Scriptures plainly say that He will, and we have spoken at length about this here: The Restitution of All Things.
But if you are finding fault with the gospel of the so-called universalists, then you may not be wrong; we have also found fault with it. See Universalism – The False Kind.