Subject: Amish faith
From: Sam Zook
To: Victor Hafichuk
Date: 12/12/2015 12:39 PM
Hello. I have a few questions on Matthew 18:18.. I grew up Amish and when I was 17 my whole family left the old order amish because we felt they were teaching a works based salvation.. We were Mennonite (drove cars and had electricity etc) for 2 years.. Then my parents wanted to go back to some kind of amish, so we could communicate with our relatives a little more.. So they found a new-order type amish church that thought salvation through faith.. And being born again etc. They don’t have man made rules tied to the church.. They live solely on the bible.
Anyway, I met a girl from a strict old order church and we fell in love and are planning on getting married in May…. But in order to marry her I have to move to her church and become a member there.. At first I didn’t like that idea cause they believe in a lotta stuff that I don’t believe is 100% truth..
(they have very low morals, their young people party, get drunk and are very wild…not unlike the young of this world, almost everyone smokes.. They don’t talk about God much except in church.. And even then its only the preachers talking about God… They believe we cannot know if we are saved, that we just go through life in good hopes that we did good enough and attended church enough to reach salvation when they meet Jesus.. There’s lot more stuff but I will touch on that later)
But I decided I will do that so we can get married and then after we’re married we can move to where I came from. But I just found out they are talking to my girlfriend and warning her to not let me talk her into moving to any new order church… (Or any other church for that matter). Because “that church is bad” because “they can have phones” and “they preach in English at church” etc.
Now its very hard to talk to my girlfriend on the subject… I started asking questions about why it would be so bad moving to that church? And they said its because when I become of this church I have go promise to take my place and help build this church up.. And never to leave the faith. Then I told them I don’t think its right to tie someone to the church.. That we should only be committed to Christ.. Then they quoted Matthew 18:18 and said that if I join this church I am tied to live here forever.. Cause whatever the church (the whole church in agreement) decides, or binds, God will bind it also in heaven..therefore if I leave this church I will be shunned and treated like an unbeliever… And all their man made rules aren’t man made anymore because the bound them here.. And now God has bound them in heaven.. Making the rules appear to be coming directly from God.. .
But don’t believe that’s what the Jesus in Matthew 18 was talking about… But I haven’t really studied the subject enough to be able to give them a clear answer on that.. So that is my question.. What exactly was Jesus talking about? How do I answer them on that?
From: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 8:01 AM
To: Sam Zook
Subject: Re: Amish faith
Hi Sam,
So your Amish church is bad because you use phones but this other Amish church is good while “they have very low morals, their young people party, get drunk and are very wild…not unlike the young of this world, almost everyone smokes…”? Wow; talk about the kettle calling the stove black!
So if Paul and Peter had phones available, they wouldn’t have called each other about life-giving matters, but they would have allowed the young among their flock to party like the world? How great is the hypocrisy of the religious!
You need to stay out of your fiancé’s church and if she wants to remain there, you dare not marry her. You shouldn’t threaten or plead with her to leave, either. If she isn’t freely with you in your faith in Christ (if you’re in His faith and keep His commandments), then it would be very foolish to marry her. You would be like Solomon who, though the wisest man of his age, violated God’s commandment to not marry wives who followed strange gods.
As for the interpretation of Matthew 18 – this church spokesperson is perverting the Lord’s Words in order to usurp His authority. It’s downright antiChrist thievery (taking His place).
Here’s the context:
Matthew 18:15-20 MKJV
(15) But if your brother shall trespass against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
(16) But if he will not hear you, take one or two more with you, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
(17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he neglects to hear the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax-collector.
(18) Truly I say to you, Whatever you shall bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven; and whatever you shall loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.
(19) Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
(20) For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there I am in their midst.
Was the Lord speaking of “Amish” brothers? Was Jesus saying where two or three Amish were gathered in His Name, He was there among them, or where two or three believers were gathered?
The Lord was speaking of HIS brothers, which are all true believers no matter when or where they lived. The hallmark of true believers is that they take His Name, not one of the many names of the churches of men. This Amish spokesperson is no different than the Catholic Church from which he mistakenly thinks his cult has escaped. They’re just another flavor of sectarian, condemned by the Word of God:
“For you are yet carnal. For in that there is among you envyings and strife and divisions, are you not carnal, and do you not walk according to men” (1 Corinthians 3:3 MKJV).
Isaiah 65:2-5 MKJV
(2) I have spread out My hands all the day to a rebellious people who walk in the way not good, after their own thoughts;
(3) a people who without ceasing provoke Me to anger to My face; who sacrifice in gardens, and burn incense on the bricks;
(4) a people who remain among the graves, and sleep in the tombs, who eat swine’s flesh, and broth from hateful things in their vessels;
(5) who say, Keep to yourself, do not come near me; for I am holier than you. These are a smoke in My nose, a fire that burns all the day.
This Amish cult, with their evil attitude, treats Christ’s brothers who aren’t part of their group in the same manner Diotrephes treated the apostle John and his companions:
“I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, did not receive us” (3 John 1:9 MKJV).
They think they serve Christ while rejecting Him in those who come in His Name. And this is no strange thing – the Lord told us it would be this way:
“They shall put you out of the synagogue. But an hour is coming that everyone who kills you will think that he bears God service” (John 16:2 MKJV).
If you’re going to walk with the Lord, Sam, that is believe and obey Him, you’ll be parting with all of men’s religions:
“Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty” (2 Corinthians 6:17-18 MKJV).
“And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues. For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds” (Revelation 18:4-5 MKJV).
Read and read at our site, Sam. Hear, believe, and obey the Word of God. There’s much more at stake here than marriage. How about your soul? You have to go all the way with the Lord Jesus Christ if you’ll be saved, forsaking all, even as He solemnly warned.
Victor
From: Sam Zook
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 1:16 PM
To: Victor Hafichuk
Subject: Re: Amish faith
Thank you for you’re reply.. I can agree with what you said..and I’m praying to God for strength to do the right thing here..
From: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 7:21 AM
To: Sam Zook
Subject: Re[3]: Amish faith
Believe and obey, Sam. His grace is always there for doing the right thing.
Victor
From: Sam Zook
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:00 AM
To: Victor Hafichuk
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Amish faith
I am gonna stay away from that church now.. But I don’t wanna just drop my girlfriend… Because if I leave her here she will probably not get another chance at seeing the truth… She wants to come with me… But she is very close to her family and its gonna take her a little time to let go.. I love her and I don’t want her to be blind the rest of her life.. please pray for us.
From: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2015 7:11 AM
To: Sam Zook
Subject: Re[5]: Amish faith
“Because if I leave her here she will probably not get another chance at seeing the truth…”
Sam, do you think you’re God? Of course you’ll say, “No,” but the answer above says, “Yes.” God will do with your fiancée as He pleases and has no need of you whatsoever if He chooses to save her. If she is blind to the Lord and the truth, the reality of her background, it’s because God hasn’t given her sight, and it’s not up to you to choose for her to see. To paraphrase:
“Or how do you know, fiancé, whether you will save your fiancée?” (1 Corinthians 7:16 ESV)
Your thought that you need to be there to save your fiancée isn’t truly for her sake, but for your own. You’re trying to save your life – that is, keep your life in this world with what you want. You’re not laying down your life for the truth and Lord’s sake.
Not good, Sam, not good at all. You need to walk away from the bait (not saying your fiancée is purposely acting as a lure to make you compromise), or you’ll get hooked and there’ll be no future with the Lord. You’ll be serving the gods of your wife’s people, just as Solomon was warned and happened to him.
The prayer would be for you to hear the truth. You’ve heard it by us as given by the Lord. Now, will you obey Him, forsaking your girlfriend, or will you lose your soul?
Matthew 16:24-26 MKJV
(24) Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.
(25) For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, and whoever desires to lose his life for My sake shall find it.
(26) For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Victor