Someone online talked about this chapter in Judges and implied it contradicted that God is Love since there seemed to be rape and worse. (The discussion comment thread is here on Reddit) I then talked with Dennison about it and we agreed to post this topic here. So that someone online pointed out this quote:
"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes." Judges 21:10-24
But he left out this last part: Jdg 21:25 "In those days there was no king in Israel. Every man did the right in his own eyes."
So what's going on in this chapter? Men perverting God's Law would be my assessment, but I am pretty new to this stuff. In addition, after I talked to Dennision about this, he told me, "Consider this though. God doesn't endorse people sinning."
Judges 21 Questions
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Paul Cohen
Re: Judges 21 Questions
Alan,
Some atheists and God-haters like to do nothing more than try to find fault with Him through apparent contradictions or atrocities in the Scriptures. But since God IS love and doesn’t condone sinning, anything He does that men claim isn’t in the character of love, or that promotes sin, is their carnal thinking. Their perverse perceptions do not reflect on Him or His ways. Men are wrong and God is always right; simple enough.
A couple things can be noted about the story told in Judges 21.
First, the Scriptures don’t say the Lord commanded the Israelites in the matter of obtaining wives for Benjamin.
Second, to say that the Israelites were endorsing rape is an evil accusation, based on what we do know about the situation.
There had just been a horrible crime committed by the tribe of Benjamin in Israel, followed up Benjamin’s unwillingness to take responsibility for the evil done, which led to much bloodshed. After Benjamin had nearly been wiped out as a tribe in the ensuing battle, the Israelites were looking for a way, in mercy, to restore Benjamin to the nation. They ended up endorsing a way to provide wives for the wayward tribe, not rape victims to satisfy their own lusts (such as we find in Islam) or the lust of the Benjamites. It was about honorable marriage. No one was raped.
As for the necessity of bloodshed, that’s often the outcome of sin. David was told in the matter of Bathsheba:
“Why have you despised the Word of the LORD, to do what is evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife” (2 Samuel 12:9-10 ESV).
Paul
Some atheists and God-haters like to do nothing more than try to find fault with Him through apparent contradictions or atrocities in the Scriptures. But since God IS love and doesn’t condone sinning, anything He does that men claim isn’t in the character of love, or that promotes sin, is their carnal thinking. Their perverse perceptions do not reflect on Him or His ways. Men are wrong and God is always right; simple enough.
A couple things can be noted about the story told in Judges 21.
First, the Scriptures don’t say the Lord commanded the Israelites in the matter of obtaining wives for Benjamin.
Second, to say that the Israelites were endorsing rape is an evil accusation, based on what we do know about the situation.
There had just been a horrible crime committed by the tribe of Benjamin in Israel, followed up Benjamin’s unwillingness to take responsibility for the evil done, which led to much bloodshed. After Benjamin had nearly been wiped out as a tribe in the ensuing battle, the Israelites were looking for a way, in mercy, to restore Benjamin to the nation. They ended up endorsing a way to provide wives for the wayward tribe, not rape victims to satisfy their own lusts (such as we find in Islam) or the lust of the Benjamites. It was about honorable marriage. No one was raped.
As for the necessity of bloodshed, that’s often the outcome of sin. David was told in the matter of Bathsheba:
“Why have you despised the Word of the LORD, to do what is evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and have taken his wife to be your wife and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife” (2 Samuel 12:9-10 ESV).
Paul
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Alan Agnew
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:54 am
Re: Judges 21 Questions
Ah, yes, it makes more sense after I read Judges 20 today, and I'll post my thoughts on this. Gibeah of Benjamin intended to kill a man. They didn't kill him, but they raped and killed his concubine. Then the tribe of Benjamin did not serve justice, and they warred to prevent justice. Cost them many men, nearly ended the tribe. So, then, it seems Benjamin was the tribe of rapists or supporters of rapists in a war they started. I didn't even know of this war until today, but it was needed.
Then there was Jabesh-gilead, a group that did not participate in the battles against Benjamin and violated the oath. How disloyal they were. Everyone of that group, save the virgins, were killed. As a peace offering, Benjamin received these virgins. I took it for granted that what happened here was rape, but it actually reads a lot better than that now that I've seen more context. The men took wives and rebuilt cities, and it was done in the interest of maintaining a tribe.
I'm impressed that the sons of Israel did the last part in Judges 21 without Jehovah commanding them to, nonetheless. They could have just killed Benjamin and kept the virgins to the rest of Israel. They could have decided to not bother telling fathers, "We need your daughter for Benjamin to restore them." They went through more trouble with what they did for peace.
So, people in Israel did things right in their sight. Benjamin felt fine with the rape and murder, war happened, and the other tribes were merciful and supported Benjamin's growth after the fighting. All done without a king, just Jehovah's commands in Judges 20 and the tribes resolving everything in Judges 21.
Thank you, Cohen. I believe I understand what happened better now. I shouldn't have so easily believed what LowlyParadox implied in his post about the sons of Israel doing evil. It's easy for non-believers to suggest Judges 21:23 is a euphemism for rape, and when I read them, such accusations confuse me.
Then there was Jabesh-gilead, a group that did not participate in the battles against Benjamin and violated the oath. How disloyal they were. Everyone of that group, save the virgins, were killed. As a peace offering, Benjamin received these virgins. I took it for granted that what happened here was rape, but it actually reads a lot better than that now that I've seen more context. The men took wives and rebuilt cities, and it was done in the interest of maintaining a tribe.
I'm impressed that the sons of Israel did the last part in Judges 21 without Jehovah commanding them to, nonetheless. They could have just killed Benjamin and kept the virgins to the rest of Israel. They could have decided to not bother telling fathers, "We need your daughter for Benjamin to restore them." They went through more trouble with what they did for peace.
So, people in Israel did things right in their sight. Benjamin felt fine with the rape and murder, war happened, and the other tribes were merciful and supported Benjamin's growth after the fighting. All done without a king, just Jehovah's commands in Judges 20 and the tribes resolving everything in Judges 21.
Thank you, Cohen. I believe I understand what happened better now. I shouldn't have so easily believed what LowlyParadox implied in his post about the sons of Israel doing evil. It's easy for non-believers to suggest Judges 21:23 is a euphemism for rape, and when I read them, such accusations confuse me.