Video on Possession Tithing

There is much misunderstanding and apprehension, even acrimony, regarding the matter of tithes and offerings as it applies to those professing faith today. There are, however, simple, Biblical, godly answers to all questions and concerns for those who believe.
Paul L.

Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Paul L. »

(This is an archived correspondence at The Path of Truth. We have sent notification to the correspondent.)

Hi,

I challenge you to watch these video on Youtube comparing the Income Tithe and the Possession Tithe. I honestly can't figure out where Christian leaders came up with the idea of the tithe being figured from what you make at your job.

Thanks!

Paul L.

https://youtu.be/FXnwysEhyLg

Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk

Re: Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk »

Hi Paul,

You quote Luke 18:12 in your video: "I fast twice on the Sabbath, I give tithes of all that I possess."

I see you're aware of how the Greek word translated as "possess" is defined in Strong's Concordance:


ktaomai

ktah'-om-ahee
A primary verb; to get, that is, acquire (by any means; own): - obtain, possess, provide, purchase.

In other words, the Pharisee was saying:

"I fast twice on the Sabbath, I give tithes of all that I get." An income is something one "gets." Simple enough.

Does that make the churches of men right in their doctrine or ways? Not at all. Don't equate the true teaching and acts of the Lord with the works of corrupt men. Read our entire section on the matter and hear what Jesus Christ has done in our lives and teaches: Tithes & Offerings.

Also read The Church.

Paul and Victor
www.ThePathofTruth.com

Paul L.

Re: Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Paul L. »

Paul,

I'm really puzzled about your assurance that a tithe should be income.

You said:

"I fast twice on the Sabbath, I give tithes of all that I get." An income is something one "gets." Simple enough.

Why do you say "simple enough". The first thing I learned in Economics 101 was that money isn't made to be possessed. It's called 'currency' because it flows - it isn't meant to be held for long by anyone. And we don't have any real examples of someone tithing from a paycheck or even on money received in their business dealings. And you can't argue that money didn't exist during Bible times.

And Paul, where did you get that version of Malachi you quoted on your website from Malachi 3:10-11? Where did you find a translation with income in it? Really? I had a hard time finding a mention of it after looking through version after version on the You Version Bible App . When I finally did see it mentioned in one translation (maybe the New Amplified) the reference to income was in parentheses.

Here is what your site posted:

"Bring one-tenth of your income into the storehouse so that there may be food in My house. Test Me in this way, says the LORD of Armies. See if I won't open the windows of heaven for you and flood you with blessings.Then, for your sake, I will stop insects from eating your crops. They will not destroy the produce of your land. The vines in your fields will not lose their unripened grapes, says the LORD of Armies" (Malachi 3:10-11 GW).

If this is the God's Word translation it is, as I thought, a very new translation (1995) that is trying to Americanize the Bible and, in doing so, has been accused by some theologians as emphasizing man's activity and effort over God's in an attempt to maximize church attendance financial growth.

Your choice of Bible Translations seems a little selective and your interpretation of ???????? a bit of a stretch.

Plus, if tithing is on 'everything you get', why don't pastors ever talk about tithing off other possessions or things acquired?
Can I ask you a simple question? Did you look at my suggestion on how to calculate the possession tithe and do you really have a problem with it?

Do you really want the poor to be overburdened by a questionable translation?
What is at stake is the heart of Christianity. Man's faith or God's work. If a farmer makes foolish errors in planting and maintenance of his crops he can work all season until his fingers bleed but he may not see much increase from God. But if he is a wise steward, makes good decisions and maintains what he has planted well, he may work far fewer hours but have a MUCH better harvest. So, tying income to what is, for most people in poverty, an hourly wage, hardly seems to make any sense. Agreed?
If the possession tithe was taught, pastors would have to get serious about teaching stewardship wouldn't they?

With Sincerity,

Paul

Feel free to respond INLINE as it would be great if you could address or react to each question I have posed.

Thanks

Paul L.

Re: Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Paul L. »

Paul,

Thanks for your reply, by the way. I have put out many other challenges and you are the first to take the time to respond. I appreciate that.

Paul

Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk

Re: Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk »

"I'm really puzzled about your assurance that a tithe should be income."

You shouldn't be puzzled, Paul. Did you read our whole section on tithes and offerings, and how the Lord taught us these things? If you had, you'd see that we're not just talking theoretically, but practically, verifying what we teach from the Scriptures by the experience of faith and undeniable blessing of the Lord.

You're splitting hairs over the matter of money, and are simply wrong not to characterize it as an asset. If I have a $300,000 in the bank and buy a house with it tomorrow - what - only now I'm supposed to tithe $30,000 because I've converted a liquid asset into a more illiquid one? You're not making sense, and you're wrong when you say:

"And we don't have any real examples of someone tithing from a paycheck or even on money received in their business dealings."

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do you. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come" (1 Corinthians 16:1-2 KJV).

The poor widow had no problem placing her two mites as an offering to God, and God had no problem receiving it (Matthew 12:42-44). We know she wasn't "overburdened." Her offering was free and she was blessed, her needs provided.

You accuse us of overburdening the poor. We impose nothing at all, but we have witnessed that where the poor gave, not only according to, but beyond their ability, God blessed them in many ways, providing, revealing, healing and pleasing. How's that for sure evidence against your mercenary position?

Yes, YOUR mercenary position, the one you accuse us of. You don't believe in giving to God or His ministers because you're selfish. The irony and hypocrisy is that you posture as one doing both God and man great favor. In your presumed wisdom and nobility, you greatly err, robbing worshippers who, if they heeded your error, would fail to be blessed. Of course, should they choose your counsel, it's because they aren't innocent or worshippers of God, willingly receiving your rationalizations and justifications to keep that which they should free up.

The major problem here is that you're trying to reform false Christianity, converting into your version of true Christianity. But like all reformations preceding you, you too will fail because you're not building on the Foundation of Christ. We are with Him outside the camps of men, the only place you can meet and dwell with Him, and He with you.

Rather than focus on the tithing issue, Paul, read our site in order to be introduced to the true Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel. You need to come to Him - that's the issue here.

Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
www.ThePathofTruth.com

Paul L.

Re: Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Paul L. »

Paul,

Your response seems to insinuate that, because I believe the tithe should be calculated in a way that is scriptural and easier on the poor that I am not a Christian with a genuine relationship with Christ. How could you possibly know that about someone? And do you also assume that I don't give to my church?

Also, if you want to calculate the tithe once a year (as the Israelites did) and include money in the bank (as they did not) that's fine with me (but that still wouldn't include regular income). But the church has conveniently blended a number of different Old Testament traditions into one for its convenience. First fruits? Not traditionally a tenth. Giving as you've been prospered once a week so that there be no collections when I come? Where is the word tithe mentioned in the aforementioned scripture? Really? What scripture specifically teaches tithing on income once a week?

I think the reason pastors don't want to hear anything about the possession tithe has more to do with it conflicting with their traditions and the hundreds if not thousands of teachings and sermons they have made referencing the income tithe - not because there is anything wrong with the possession tithe scripturally.

Here is another truth - you can browbeat the ignorant poor into giving more than they should, but the rich will simply not have any of it. Those who are truly wealthy can hide lots of their wealth and income in their business accounting and won't pay tithes or taxes on it. They aren't stupid.

In addition pastors often conveniently benefit from free meals and vacations all paid for by the church all in the name of ministry. They also often get very generous personal gifts and donations from wealthy members of their church who are more than happy to pay for some influence and notoriety in the church. I don't figure these pastors are tithing on any of these things - are they?

And your story of the widow's mite that pastors love to cite... What have you proven? If this was a reference to the early days of the Church then, as a widow, she would have been THE MAIN recipient of assistance from the church should she need it. There were no paid pastors at the time because most of the Church was still meeting in people's homes and the practice of a paid pastor was nowhere near beginning to be a norm. And also, how does her offering equate to a tithe? You just want it as a justification to fleece the poor - making them feel guilty if they won't do like the old lady. If you don't think Jesus had a problem with mistreatment of the poor - he taught for people to lend to the poor without any expectation of a return. Have you condemned usury lately? Nah, we would hate to offend bankers wouldn't we? Yeah, the church used to be against usury when the Jews completely dominated lending but when that changed during the late Middle Ages and Renaissance (when Italians began to prosper in banking) teaching against usury also disappeared.

And let me add, that if someone decides to give a large offering to bless God and the church, that's wonderful - but to hold them hostage under the scriptures in Malachi that were directed at the priests is despicable.

You and income tithe loving teachers are destroying the Christian Church. It leaves you with no serious burden to teach Godly Stewardship (pay your tithe first - we'll show you a Dave Ramsey video when you get yourself into trouble). The church's fleecing of the poor gives ammunition to atheists and the secular world in general and your robbing God teaching that alienates the poor and/or fails to teach them Christian stewardship is just going to benefit Islam where the poor are given a totally free ride (which I am NOT advocating).

You sir are the one who needs to repent. I am not going to presume to know whether or not you believe in God (as you did of me). And as for your treatment of Russell Kelly, you are way out of line. There are so many things that he says that are true that the best you can hope to do in your criticism is to nit pick a few of his claims. Additionally, Russell Kelly is not against the support (even generous support) of the Christian Church. He is simply against doctrines that abuse the poor.

As for myself, I like Kelly's teaching and suspect that they are technically correct, but I think the church needs consistent support and I know that people don't tend to give much in church when they feel like it is up to them to decide what to give week to week.
Why don't you just admit it Paul? There is nothing wrong with someone tithing directly from their possessions calculated once a year (count money if you wish in the bank as you suggested - the poor won't have any and are often I the negative) and then adding an additional amount on a weekly basis as they are able.

You know that I'm right. I don't think you'll even respond.

Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk

Re: Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk »

"We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error"
(1 John 4:6 MKJV).


Paul, whether deliberately twisting what we preach or not understanding us doesn't matter because you don't want to understand; you have twisted our words and falsely accused us.

Why? There can be only one reason for it. You're an unbeliever speaking against unbelievers to other unbelievers (if anyone is listening to you).

You have nothing to do with true believers, the Lord Jesus Christ, or His Kingdom. Go your way, Satan. Your time has come to the full to be put away for good.

Paul and Victor

Paul L.

Re: Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Paul L. »

Paul,

Amusing, you can't refute my simple statements on tithing because you are used to getting to jump from scripture to scripture as you debate anti-tithers. But I am not taking that position and you don't have any scriptural way of denying the meaning of the verb in Luke 18:12 that is in question.

The way you guys have chosen to decide for yourselves how you think different books of the New Testament are corrupted is interesting - and I wouldn't doubt if you aren't right about some of it. But I'm sure you have had you fair share of Christians saying that you are the evil ones for challenging the innerancy of the Bible.

Along those lines, I have my doubts how many folks are listening to you guys (I'm sure you have a small following).

Will anyone listen to me? Perhaps not, anytime you touch or challenge the newly constructed tithing teachings (which only started becoming popular in the mid 1900's) pastoral types start saying you are straight from Satan. Lol.

Everyone else is either brainwashed by tithe teachings they have been listening to their whole life or completely tired of the subject. For whatever reason people get excited when you promise them great wealth (an electric bill refund!) so long as they give their magical 10%. You can't get people that excited about being good stewards because that requires real change.

As Americans we have witnessed Christianity do next to nothing to improve the poverty and crime in the black community. Yet these pastors preach tithing on income like it is nobody's business. These pastors get everybody in their churches on Sunday morning plenty excited, but they aren't making any strides what so ever. Islam will soon be taking over in these neighborhoods thanks to this foolish focus on income (which is a terrible indicator of real prosperity and wealth).

What you and Victor ought to do is endorse these teachings. You've got plenty of other ideas that show how much different you are from the traditional church. These ideas ought to be perfect for you, unless, of course, you have been benefitting from income tithes, and like most pastors, don't want to lose some substantial income from givers or risk losing people's faith in the teachings that assure your income.

Do you have any idea of how many VERY influential Christians in the past and present aren't advocates of tithing? I guess we are all the spawn of Satan, huh? What a joke. To call me that when I am actually okay with either tithe and think that people are being irresponsible not to give consistently, sacrificially, and joyously is an even bigger one.
I'll grant that I may have attributed to you guys some motivations and intentions that are presumptuous.

You still won't admit that for someone to tithe off what they POSSESS and not from their income from a job - not what they plundered in war is not to God and scriptural? It's your strange first fruits/ income tithe mix and nothing else? Are you open to possession tithing (that's actually much closer to what Abraham tithes from) at all? That's what I really want to know. Scriptural, sacrificial, consistent - it passes all the test.

If not, according to what you have said so far, you better start teaching people to tithe from ALL THEIR WEALTH. Calculate income plus property plus money in the bank and any other investments. EVERYTHING! Nope, the rich would tell you to go jump in a creek wouldn't they?

Like it or not, the more informed people are becoming, the more legalistic tithing is being brought into question. Want to know why such the percentage of devoted tithers is so low in our churches? Pastors expected too much from the poor, taught them too little stewardship, and now, broker than ever - they have nothing left to give - they can't give and still cover their debts. You're standing on a contrived teaching that is hurting the church, families, and becoming obsolete all at the same time.

Paul

Victor Hafichuk
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am

Re: Video on Possession Tithing

Post by Victor Hafichuk »

See how these inventors of anti-Christ and anti-Biblical doctrine try to shine as lights in a counterfeit worship so as to be praised by simpletons whose god is retention and gain of goods. We ask for no tithes and we will not cease to freely give the Truth away even as we have received it, though some may not be inclined to give. We have brought offerings, have been blessed in doing so, and others have brought offerings and have been blessed in every way.

Let this ox insist on laboring while muzzling himself…or is he an ass? He's free to do so. So are we, and have done so, but we have also seen the blessing of God upon people who have freely given, not tithing legalistically, but giving out of a willing heart. This fellow has the two motivations confused.

This fellow Paul Luther also makes a bizarre distinction between possessions and income. Isn't income a possession? Have we not heard of evaluating and selling goodwill as an asset, which is potential income in a business?

And didn't Abraham have an income in his war booty before it became an asset? Don't all assets first come as income? But this silly fool is wise in his own eyes and will be told nothing. See his final arguments that we have passed on replying, seeing we've already soundly answered the objections he stubbornly repeats.

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