The Path of Truth Forum

Hi Victor,

What are your views on this position of the atonement?

- Mark

Hi Mark,

I have no literature from you to reference. Did you miss an attachment?

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Hi Victor,

There was no attachment - just the question . . .

Mark

Hi Mark,

We aren't theologians, parsing the intellectual debates of religious scholars who speak from theory because they don't have the reality of a walk with God. He has revealed Himself to us in Christ, so we speak plainly of what we know of Him.

Could you reframe your question by taking whatever it is you understand of “Christus Victor” and relate it to us in your own simple words, presenting us with what it is you're wondering about?

Paul

Hi Paul,

Sorry, I was under the impression that you were theologians - I mean aren't we all, to some degree or another, with or without a degree?

How I understand "Christus Victor" is that it - being a latin term - means "Christ is Victorious"......often those who strongly hold fast to this position (as a way to describe the Atonement) put the Enemy (Satan, and other demonic forces) into the location of God - as being whom the payment for sin was made. God demanded justice for sin - Jesus Christ was satisfied that. Where does this all fit into your reality.....both/and perhaps?

Mark

Mark, we can unequivocally declare to you that Jesus Christ is indeed victorious, gloriously so, although the world cannot see it. How do we know? He has told us so and proven it in our lives countless times. He lives, having raised Himself from the dead, thus overcoming death; He reigns, having overcome the world and all authority is His, as He declared. The Father didn't pay a ransom for sinners to the Devil; He redeemed that which the serpent had usurped; He destroyed the destroyer's destruction:

“He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil” (1 John 3:8 MKJV).

Finally, and most importantly, as that verse and these following ones declare, He has acquired the victory for us in that we are no longer slaves to sin. We are made free through faith in Him, His resurrection and the power of His blood to atone for us:

“Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother” (1 John 3:9-10 MKJV).

You'll have to speak for yourself if you consider yourself a “theologian,” which is one who speculates about God with his carnal sensibilities. There is an arrogant quality to such an approach that God isn't pleased with.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV).

Praise God, Jesus Christ has delivered us from the presumption of theologians, to know Him according to His thoughts and ways. He IS victorious!

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in Your sight” (Matthew 11:25-26 KJV).

To further answer your question about the payment Jesus made, try this writing:

To Whom Did Jesus Pay the Ransom for Us?

And add to the list of supplemental readings at the end:

The Origin and Identity of Satan

Let us know how these serve you.

Victor and Paul

Thank you for the reply . . .

Mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=736WkmsngaA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi Mark,

The video you sent us reminds us of the Scripture and commandment of the Lord, “But you shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves” (Exodus 34:13 KJV).

Did you know that the musicians are worshipping Ashtoreth of the groves in the Name of the Lord? She is the queen of emotional praise and worship that substitutes for obedience and death by the cross. The Lord has sent us to preach the latter, in order that those who repent will worship Him in spirit and in truth, having eternal life.

Have you red the writings we sent you? What do you have to say?

Paul

Paul,

In regards to the video, my apologies for your the reminder of idol worship and potential for enticing after the same. Causing a stumbling was surely not the intent, if that has happened, please forgive me . . . the worthiness of Christ was the reason for attaching it - for HE is worthy.

I wonder if you listened to the song before your comment/charge of idol worship? The lyrics certainly don't line up with what you say, for there is NO ONE that can be sung about in this way . . . however, should you (and yours) feel that way it is understandable. But just so we are clear, cheer up/chill out “...there is no God but one..” 1 Corinthians 8:6 - the meat isn't defiled, you can eat should your conscious allow - if not, don't worry too much about it.

We all need to be cautious, so as to not project our own shortcomings onto others (see Titus 1:15) . . . the problem in doing so is the potential that we turn some away.

I have read some of what was attached previously . . . and I thanked you for your reply.

- Mark

Mark, there's nothing wrong with a label on a package of organic peas provided the contents are what the label has specified. Truly, even if the label is on a package of false goods, it's still a good label, except misplaced, deceptively so when giving the impression of what the label promises.

That's the problem in this case, one you don't recognize because you've never received the Spirit of God and are unable to exercise spiritual discernment. You judge after the appearance and not by revelation, by God's gift of discernment. You're only looking at the label, but we see the contents and entirely disagree with the spirit and attitude therein, which leads people astray by coming as an angel of light.

The label doesn't match the contents of the container, if in fact the label is correct - I don't understand all the words to the song (if you wish to send us the lyrics, we might tell you the error in them, as well, Lord willing). Frankly, the presentation is affected, pretentious, presumptuous, and in contempt of God.

Do you honestly think those persons would consider their attitudes and performance as pleasing to God if He were visibly standing in front of them? The answer is they wouldn't; they'd be ashamed of themselves. However, if you think they would presume to be pleasing Him, it would only prove what we say of you now. Consider prayerfully if you can. You aren't right; you are deceived.

You haven't created the possibility of stumbling us with this presentation. God has granted us the grace to see through these things. You're the one stumbling and we're here to tell you so...for your sake, and the persons “entertaining” in the name of worship. That's it - her voice and intonation is for impressing earthly audiences, which is an abomination to God, especially when using Him to accomplish her ambitions.

Victor

Victor,

WOW, would you eat of the peas that you consider false with the good label? How about sitting down with the peas that you know are good - knowing the label contents are genuine, yet because these peas are so immeasurably good that the best attempts to describe the contents will always fall short . . . of course you would. You do, each day.

With respect to discernment (that you describe in terms of “case”, as in an inquest), the interesting thing about deception is that it is deceiving. In order to lead people astray there are a few ingredients, one key ingredient is intent . . . the second motive. Jesus Himself refers to this as fruit. Is your fruit organic? (careful in your answer, a quick “of course, but yours is not” is deception)

To discern(judge) the content of the package one actually has to test it. Not from afar, but actually, because you haven't done so and then proclaim, one can discern that your attitude is the one in contempt, that won't be news to you - you are expert in this.

Here are the lyrics:
Verse 1:
No pen or quill, no scribe in perfect skill, With flawless words could capture all You are,
No lofty thought, no scholar of this world, Could grasp an inch of such infinity
Pre-Chorus:
Though we cannot comprehend such a mystery Just a glimpse of You revealed is compelling us to sing
Chorus:
Holy, holy is the Lord God almighty
Worthy, worthy is Your Name
All of Heaven joins the universe ever crying Worthy, worthy is Your name
Verse 2:
With hearts amazed and songs that never frame The fullness of your worth and majesty
We come again and fall on bended knee, And here adore the God that we don't see
Pre-Chorus
Chorus
Bridge:
When You return, we'll hear the trumpet sound You'll lead us home riding on the clouds
Where we will stand and sing forevermore, The honor and the praise, the glory is the Lord's
Chorus

What attitudes can you possibly discern that would cause embarrassment or shame, is it the one finger pointed forward, with three backward thing?
(God Himself IS standing in front of us all, not visibly though - Jesus intercedes for those in Christ - but I think you know this.)

Would you have picked up a stone as described in John 8:7?

Many will define discernment based on a proclamation of others. The fruits of the Adversary are: accusation, slander and pride.

There may have been a previous stumbling and an angel of light that has come to you also . . . or are you?

- Mark

“For as I passed by and saw the things you worship, I also found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Not knowing then whom you worship, I make Him known to you” (Acts 17:23 MKJV).

Mark, you ask:

“WOW, would you eat of the peas that you consider false with the good label?”

Of course not. But it's not just a matter of what we consider something to be, but what we see and know it is by the Spirit of God. You don't know because you don't have the Spirit of Christ. You consider something good or evil by the knowledge you've gained eating from the illicit Tree, which has left you dead in the ditch with those you follow.

We see the poison and avoid it, but you eat it up, saying, “Can't you see what a wonderful banquet of praise for our mighty God this is?”

Silly man; if anyone comes extolling God with their lips you accept it without question or discernment. You'll accept anything except what is actually of Him, as you reject the truth we've spoken to you in Christ, the essence of true praise and worship.

So it's not a matter of your religious musical group coming up short. They have nothing to begin with. They worship God according to their conception of Him, and as grand as that might be in their and your mind, it's insulting and vexing to Him. They don't know Him because they aren't worshipping Him - they're worshipping themselves by falling prostrate before the god they've made in their own image:

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV).

How can they adore Him Whom they don't know or see, even according to their own words?

“We come again and fall on bended knee, And here adore the God that we don't see”

How can you begin to describe what you haven't seen or known? These musicians don't have the testimony of Jesus Christ as do those who have seen and known Him:

1 John 1:1-3 MKJV
(1) That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of Life,
(2) (for the Life was revealed, and we have seen it and bear witness, and show to you the everlasting Life, Who was with the Father and was revealed to us),
(3) that which we have seen and heard we declare unto you, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

“Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?” (1 Corinthians 9:1 MKJV)

“Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father” (John 14:9 MKJV).

“He is the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15 EMTV).

“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye has seen You” (Job 42:5 MKJV).

These musicians, with their spirit and lyrics, are like you, Mark, affecting worship of the God they haven't seen or known, Whom you have made into something else altogether, an idol of your minds. That's why you're caught up in debate on theories about God, because all you and your companions have is mental grasping at theory rather than the fellowship and comfort of Reality.

“No lofty thought, no scholar of this world, Could grasp an inch of such infinity"

You also are a scholar of this world, a theologian analyzing God with his carnal mind, which spiritual men abhor and reject:

“Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not submit to the law of God, nor indeed can it” (Romans 8:7 EMTV).

You and your musical entertainers have not had Jesus Christ, Almighty God, revealed in you. You haven't seen or heard:

“But as it is written, 'Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,' nor has it entered into the heart of man, 'the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.' But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God” (1 Corinthians 2:9-10 MKJV).

“Though we cannot comprehend such a mystery Just a glimpse of You revealed is compelling us to sing”

This “glimpse” is a mirage of your minds that leaves you dead and empty, whereas we who believe behold His glory and are transformed into His image, filled with His fullness:

“But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord” (2 Corinthians 3:18 EMTV).

“…that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height, and to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3:17-19 MKJV).

“When You return, we'll hear the trumpet sound You'll lead us home riding on the clouds”

According to you and your companions, Christ hasn't returned, but for us He is here. You have seen Him in us and you despise Him, just as it's written of you.

Isaiah 53:1-3 ESV
(1) Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
(2) For He grew up before Him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; He had no form or majesty that we should look at Him, and no beauty that we should desire Him.
(3) He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from Whom men hide their faces He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.

Can you hear or receive these things? We know you can't and won't - “The full soul despises a honeycomb” - but the lowly will hear and rejoice, because God has visited them - “to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet” (Proverbs 27:7 MKJV).

Paul

Paul,

Interesting, (but not surprising) that the scripture you reference less than contextual. (much of it is)

Also interesting: You “say” you have the Spirit of Christ and therefore I (and many others) don't . . . how can you be sure the tree you've (or are) eating from is good?

Why use the term, “silly” - “You fool” may have been a stronger use of language.

Don't we all worship in Spirit and in Truth when we worship Jesus Christ as God, oh right only you (Paul and Victor) have the Spirit, therefore can act as though THE judge - how convenient.

God's thoughts are not my thoughts but you perceive yours to be as His? Dangerous.

The song is a song, not infallible scripture - your criticism is misguided.

A but yes, again - your God like thoughts condemn you, as you condemn others, pitiful really.

You being wise ascribe your ideas and thoughts to God. Discrediting.

Has Christ returned as He said He would in Revelation 22:20?

You ask if I can receive these things, as if you are dispenser of all truth. Sketchy

I originally emailed you to ask a question (that was my mistake) . . . you both began the bludgeoning attacks - only you know why.

I will begin to pray for you both, and for Sara.

- Mark

You're not liking what you see in the mirror, Mark. Out comes the bitterness and snarkiness. And you're going to pray for us? No you're not, not in that spirit. You lie.

James 3:10-16 ESV
(10) From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
(11) Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water?
(12) Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.
(13) Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
(14) But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.
(15) This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
(16) For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice.

Paul