As I was walking through the park today I had a vision - probably a figment of my own imagination rather than something from God. There was a man walking behind me and it occurred to me that if he was to grab me and drag me into the bushes, nobody would hear my screams. The "vision" then changed to me overpowering him and savagely beating him to death. I wondered if this would be justifiable murder. My mind then switched to thinking about something which I almost can't bring myself to think of - what if my son was with me and his life was in danger? Anger rose up in me as I imagined savagely beating the imaginary perpetrator to death a second time, and this time enjoying it! Wow, I thought, God has got A LOT of work to do to with me, my mind is so corrupt. Then it occurred to me - would I actually have to go through scenarios like this in hell to purify me? I am starting to think that the purifying process I might have to endure after death is actually going to be A LOT WORSE than a physical never-ending fire. I have also been thinking recently about the shame I may have to endure as part of the purifying process if I don't start confessing certain sins - to the right people. Yes a never-ending hell of physical fire will actually let me off the hook on many things! People who say hell as corrective punishment somehow softens the idea of God's justice are blind.
Another thought that has come up: What if I go to hell for my correction but once I am there I am over-whelmed with fear that the nominal Christians were right all along and I will remain there forever? Will I know I am being corrected and still have some hope inside me or will it seem totally hopeless?
hell
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Eric Courtemanche
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:08 am
- Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
Re: hell
Hi Bertin and Rachel,
I would recommend reading the following letters:
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... f-hell.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... orever.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... ddeath.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Take your time reading them, and then if you still have questions, go ahead and seek answers to them from all here.
Eric C.
I would recommend reading the following letters:
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... f-hell.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... orever.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... ddeath.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Take your time reading them, and then if you still have questions, go ahead and seek answers to them from all here.
Eric C.
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Bertin Pelletier
Re: hell
to tell you the truth; i myself don,t realy beleive that doctrine of hell. anniliation is another one that is more palatable but if god did create man and he knew that he would fall in sin and he knew who would be saved and who would go to eternal torment well there is a word i can,t say about his charater. the problem all so called christian beleive this diabolical doctrine and you can,t reason with them on this. they listen to their lying pastors instead of studying the bible. it gives them a sense of importance with this that they are special and those outside the church are lost. im in those churches and i want to get out of it. my wife likes it there but for me i don,t. if hell does exist like they say well god is the worse being in the universe and i would rather be a cat than a human.
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Rachel Gerrard
Re: hell
Thanks Eric, I've just finished reading what you recommended. I guess my original question was referring to the second death. I am still wondering if I enter this particular state will I have any knowing that it is all for good ultimately, or will I believe it to be a hopeless state once I have entered it, even though it is not?
Also, I am confused about who is being addressed and referred to in the New Testament - saved believers only, a mixture of saved believers and those who confess Christ but are not actually saved, or everyone (saved, called but unsaved or those who are in complete darkness)? For example:
“If the fire puts an end to any man’s work, it will be his loss: but he will get salvation himself, though as by fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15 BBE).
I thought the above verse was talking about saved believers only (saved in this life).
Also, I am confused about who is being addressed and referred to in the New Testament - saved believers only, a mixture of saved believers and those who confess Christ but are not actually saved, or everyone (saved, called but unsaved or those who are in complete darkness)? For example:
“If the fire puts an end to any man’s work, it will be his loss: but he will get salvation himself, though as by fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15 BBE).
I thought the above verse was talking about saved believers only (saved in this life).
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: hell
Hi Rachel and Bertin,
Rachel, what you experienced was only imagination; it wasn’t a vision of God, but what you saw and felt was the reality of your nature and expressing what you would do if you had the choice and opportunity. It’s what any of us would do if left to ourselves. Some may deny it, even sincerely, but they aren’t being honest. The Bible is very clear on the unregenerate human nature:
Romans 3:10-18 MKJV
(10) as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;
(11) there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
(12) "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."
(13) "Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips;
(14) whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;"
(15) "their feet are swift to shed blood;
(16) destruction and misery are in their way,
(17) and the way of peace they did not know."
(18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
(Notice I said people can be sincere about their assertions, yet not honest?)
Salvation is all about God redeeming us and giving us a new nature. It is a process marked with very specific and dramatic events. He will do this with all men in the ages appointed each one. Each person will come to see their corruption and need for salvation; each will be granted faith and repentance; none has ever entered the Kingdom of God any other way that I know.
If you haven’t fully comprehended the intensity of pain when subjected to a physical fire, all you need to do is put your finger over a candle and try to imagine multiplying that sample to cover your entire body. The physical fire destroys, or at least converts what it burns to original elements, which are then incorporated into new forms of existence.
The spiritual fire is terrible, but not destructive to what is good or intended to be salvaged; it is there to destroy that which destroys you. It’s there to refine.
You can rest assured that the Creator Jesus Christ laid down His life for us so that we might have life – the historical cross tells us so. That cross is a promise to all men. Yes, the vilest of sinners will pass through the fires, of whatever nature or intensity, and God will bring us, one by one, to wholeness in harmony with Him. This is The Truly Good News. Those who think to come through any other way or presume they somehow applied the fire to, and decided salvation for themselves are in delusion – they don’t know what salvation is; truly, they’ve barely, if at all, heard of it.
Are you fearful about not knowing what will be or of being wrong after all about hell? What will you do about it? Believe in and fear an eternal torment? Does that sound like a viable solution to you? That fear in itself is an aspect or portion of hell. Don’t be afraid. The Bible says fear has torment. Lies torment and cause one to fear such things. You can know the Truth, as Jesus promised you could...and would, and knowing the Truth, you’ll be made free with nothing to fear.
We all have many thoughts, but the Truth alone is what counts. Counter the darkness with light. Know the Truth.
2 Corinthians 10:4-6 MKJV
(4) For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds,
(5) pulling down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ;
(6) and having readiness to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
You need to put your trust in God, not man. Even if men are technically right, so what? They can do nothing to effect your salvation, except speak the Truth of God as it’s given them to speak. They aren’t the ones who hold the keys of death and hell. Only the Risen Almighty Lord and Savior has that power. He’s the Word with the First and Last Word. He’s the Alpha and Omega, not man, not death, not hell, not the lake of fire.
You asked about the lake of fire, which being cast into is the second death. This is the death that annihilates the first death; the second death is the death of the first death with all its consequences, so it’s a good thing, as discussed. Eric gave you the link on that. And by the way, the second death is there to deal with hopelessness, as well, which is a fruit of the first death.
Truth applies to everyone. His Word is Truth. Truth is fire. It is the fire that cleanses, purifies and delivers.
\/
Rachel, what you experienced was only imagination; it wasn’t a vision of God, but what you saw and felt was the reality of your nature and expressing what you would do if you had the choice and opportunity. It’s what any of us would do if left to ourselves. Some may deny it, even sincerely, but they aren’t being honest. The Bible is very clear on the unregenerate human nature:
Romans 3:10-18 MKJV
(10) as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;
(11) there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
(12) "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."
(13) "Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips;
(14) whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;"
(15) "their feet are swift to shed blood;
(16) destruction and misery are in their way,
(17) and the way of peace they did not know."
(18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
(Notice I said people can be sincere about their assertions, yet not honest?)
Salvation is all about God redeeming us and giving us a new nature. It is a process marked with very specific and dramatic events. He will do this with all men in the ages appointed each one. Each person will come to see their corruption and need for salvation; each will be granted faith and repentance; none has ever entered the Kingdom of God any other way that I know.
If you haven’t fully comprehended the intensity of pain when subjected to a physical fire, all you need to do is put your finger over a candle and try to imagine multiplying that sample to cover your entire body. The physical fire destroys, or at least converts what it burns to original elements, which are then incorporated into new forms of existence.
The spiritual fire is terrible, but not destructive to what is good or intended to be salvaged; it is there to destroy that which destroys you. It’s there to refine.
You can rest assured that the Creator Jesus Christ laid down His life for us so that we might have life – the historical cross tells us so. That cross is a promise to all men. Yes, the vilest of sinners will pass through the fires, of whatever nature or intensity, and God will bring us, one by one, to wholeness in harmony with Him. This is The Truly Good News. Those who think to come through any other way or presume they somehow applied the fire to, and decided salvation for themselves are in delusion – they don’t know what salvation is; truly, they’ve barely, if at all, heard of it.
Are you fearful about not knowing what will be or of being wrong after all about hell? What will you do about it? Believe in and fear an eternal torment? Does that sound like a viable solution to you? That fear in itself is an aspect or portion of hell. Don’t be afraid. The Bible says fear has torment. Lies torment and cause one to fear such things. You can know the Truth, as Jesus promised you could...and would, and knowing the Truth, you’ll be made free with nothing to fear.
We all have many thoughts, but the Truth alone is what counts. Counter the darkness with light. Know the Truth.
2 Corinthians 10:4-6 MKJV
(4) For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds,
(5) pulling down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ;
(6) and having readiness to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
You need to put your trust in God, not man. Even if men are technically right, so what? They can do nothing to effect your salvation, except speak the Truth of God as it’s given them to speak. They aren’t the ones who hold the keys of death and hell. Only the Risen Almighty Lord and Savior has that power. He’s the Word with the First and Last Word. He’s the Alpha and Omega, not man, not death, not hell, not the lake of fire.
You asked about the lake of fire, which being cast into is the second death. This is the death that annihilates the first death; the second death is the death of the first death with all its consequences, so it’s a good thing, as discussed. Eric gave you the link on that. And by the way, the second death is there to deal with hopelessness, as well, which is a fruit of the first death.
Truth applies to everyone. His Word is Truth. Truth is fire. It is the fire that cleanses, purifies and delivers.
\/
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Rachel Gerrard
Re: hell
It is so refreshing to receive straight answers to straight questions instead of the usual "you better get down on your knees and pray" or some other spiritual jargon which has nothing to do with the question. I'm just going to re-read Victor's reply then I can absorb it.
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Rachel Gerrard
Re: hell
"Are you fearful about not knowing what will be or of being wrong after all about hell?"
I think my honest answer to that has been that I am NOT as fearful as I feel I should be! I have definitely never truly believed in a never ending punishment because if I really did believe that I would probably have cracked up long ago - how can anyone really believe in such a thing and even sleep at night?? My big fear has been that I am deceived and that I need to actually be in MORE fear! But paradoxically, since discovering what I think may be the truth about universal reconciliation, I feel more reverently fearful of God than I ever have in my life! Also paradoxically, those people who declare that they believe in never ending torment are the ones who tell me "none of us are perfect and God knows this" - and you guys who DO believe in reconciliation of all things seem to be the most God fearing ones, and from what I have seen already you do not stand for any nonsense at all when it comes to sin and lies!
"What will you do about it? Believe in and fear an eternal torment? Does that sound like a viable solution to you?"
No! It has been totally fruitless me trying to believe in everlasting torment - and not understanding why I wasn't quite buying those who claimed to believe this and wondering why I just couldn't get to grips with it like they could. There is a spirit of fear within the Baptist Church and other denominations - we dare not question any of the doctrines. Even when I ask my fellow church goers what they think about certain things their eyes kind of glaze over and they recite doctrines like robots instead of giving their honest opinion - it's so weird! And I've done it myself so many times, leaving me with a strange feeling that I had done something wrong - which I would then blame the devil for!
"And by the way, the second death is there to deal with hopelessness, as well, which is a fruit of the first death."
Amazing, honestly I really appreciate having these things answered then I can stop worrying!
I think my honest answer to that has been that I am NOT as fearful as I feel I should be! I have definitely never truly believed in a never ending punishment because if I really did believe that I would probably have cracked up long ago - how can anyone really believe in such a thing and even sleep at night?? My big fear has been that I am deceived and that I need to actually be in MORE fear! But paradoxically, since discovering what I think may be the truth about universal reconciliation, I feel more reverently fearful of God than I ever have in my life! Also paradoxically, those people who declare that they believe in never ending torment are the ones who tell me "none of us are perfect and God knows this" - and you guys who DO believe in reconciliation of all things seem to be the most God fearing ones, and from what I have seen already you do not stand for any nonsense at all when it comes to sin and lies!
"What will you do about it? Believe in and fear an eternal torment? Does that sound like a viable solution to you?"
No! It has been totally fruitless me trying to believe in everlasting torment - and not understanding why I wasn't quite buying those who claimed to believe this and wondering why I just couldn't get to grips with it like they could. There is a spirit of fear within the Baptist Church and other denominations - we dare not question any of the doctrines. Even when I ask my fellow church goers what they think about certain things their eyes kind of glaze over and they recite doctrines like robots instead of giving their honest opinion - it's so weird! And I've done it myself so many times, leaving me with a strange feeling that I had done something wrong - which I would then blame the devil for!
"And by the way, the second death is there to deal with hopelessness, as well, which is a fruit of the first death."
Amazing, honestly I really appreciate having these things answered then I can stop worrying!
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Paul Cohen
Re: hell
Yes, Stephen; and if Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, how can torment be the end?
Appreciated this observation, Rachel:
But paradoxically, since discovering what I think may be the truth about universal reconciliation, I feel more reverently fearful of God than I ever have in my life! Also paradoxically, those people who declare that they believe in never ending torment are the ones who tell me "none of us are perfect and God knows this" - and you guys who DO believe in reconciliation of all things seem to be the most God fearing ones, and from what I have seen already you do not stand for any nonsense at all when it comes to sin and lies!
I had a couple thoughts regarding your first posting:
I wondered if you knew there’s such a thing as justifiable homicide and warfare in this world. The commandment not to kill addresses murder and maintaining an ungodly attitude like Cain’s, which led to physical murder.
Also, you’re right, if I understand you correctly, that it’s far better and easier to address the matters brought to your attention by the Lord right away than to delay or cast them aside altogether. That will only make the correction harder. But correction, “the act of setting right,” will succeed, because it’s God at work, and He doesn’t fail.
Appreciated this observation, Rachel:
But paradoxically, since discovering what I think may be the truth about universal reconciliation, I feel more reverently fearful of God than I ever have in my life! Also paradoxically, those people who declare that they believe in never ending torment are the ones who tell me "none of us are perfect and God knows this" - and you guys who DO believe in reconciliation of all things seem to be the most God fearing ones, and from what I have seen already you do not stand for any nonsense at all when it comes to sin and lies!
I had a couple thoughts regarding your first posting:
I wondered if you knew there’s such a thing as justifiable homicide and warfare in this world. The commandment not to kill addresses murder and maintaining an ungodly attitude like Cain’s, which led to physical murder.
Also, you’re right, if I understand you correctly, that it’s far better and easier to address the matters brought to your attention by the Lord right away than to delay or cast them aside altogether. That will only make the correction harder. But correction, “the act of setting right,” will succeed, because it’s God at work, and He doesn’t fail.
-
Rachel Gerrard
Re: hell
Paul: "I wondered if you knew there’s such a thing as justifiable homicide and warfare in this world. The commandment not to kill addresses murder and maintaining an ungodly attitude like Cain’s, which led to physical murder."
I am now beginning to see that whatever is Spirit led is acceptable to God, regardless of the outward action and whatever other people may think of it. Cain and Abel's offerings may have even looked identical but they were so different in the WAY in which they were offered - Abel's was Spirit led and Cain's wasn't. Ecclesiastes also says "there is a time to kill". Abraham was ready to offer up his son as a sacrifice, choosing to heed God's message personal message to him above choosing what he previously knew to be "right".
On this note, could I ask if you are pro-death penalty - meaning, is it right that secular law can put a criminal to death? Would a Christian have the authority to do this in God's eyes, and if so, would it only be in particular cases?
Paul: "Also, you’re right, if I understand you correctly, that it’s far better and easier to address the matters brought to your attention by the Lord right away than to delay or cast them aside altogether".
My thoughts exactly! Things have festered in my head, even more so since I sought answers from the wrong people. Up until about three weeks ago I was listening to sermons by Paul Washer daily and reading Spurgeon thinking they had the truth and that I and the rest of the world were doomed. It switched me off from being able to love and I have been completely fruitless for two years of being a professing Christian.
I am now beginning to see that whatever is Spirit led is acceptable to God, regardless of the outward action and whatever other people may think of it. Cain and Abel's offerings may have even looked identical but they were so different in the WAY in which they were offered - Abel's was Spirit led and Cain's wasn't. Ecclesiastes also says "there is a time to kill". Abraham was ready to offer up his son as a sacrifice, choosing to heed God's message personal message to him above choosing what he previously knew to be "right".
On this note, could I ask if you are pro-death penalty - meaning, is it right that secular law can put a criminal to death? Would a Christian have the authority to do this in God's eyes, and if so, would it only be in particular cases?
Paul: "Also, you’re right, if I understand you correctly, that it’s far better and easier to address the matters brought to your attention by the Lord right away than to delay or cast them aside altogether".
My thoughts exactly! Things have festered in my head, even more so since I sought answers from the wrong people. Up until about three weeks ago I was listening to sermons by Paul Washer daily and reading Spurgeon thinking they had the truth and that I and the rest of the world were doomed. It switched me off from being able to love and I have been completely fruitless for two years of being a professing Christian.
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Paul Cohen
Re: hell
Hi Rachel,
Romans 13:1-4 MKJV
(1) Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.
(2) So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves.
(3) For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire to be not afraid of the authority? Do the good, and you shall have praise from it.
(4) For it is a servant of God to you for good. For if you practice evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, a revenger for wrath on him who does evil.
Doesn’t this answer your question? I believe so. God has put the sword in the hand of secular authorities, which serve under Him to dispense justice.
But because men have been selfish and wicked, they have sought to avoid the reality of God’s verdict on murder and other violent sins. This “compassionate” stance of governments, such as you presently have in England, has greatly spread evil rather than curtailed it. What else should we expect when there is no fear of retribution for evildoing?
Let me ask you a question, Rachel. How would you feel if you lived in Israel, which also doesn’t exercise the death penalty, and one of the many terrorists they let out of jail (as they’ve been wont to do in prisoner trades), committed a suicide attack that killed your son? Would you be against capital punishment after that?
Of course, such a tragedy wouldn’t happen without reason under God’s sovereignty, and I can tell you one of the prime reasons that it does happen is because people who justify letting murderers live reap what they sow.
As believers, however, we’re not given to exercise authority in contradiction to the secular authorities. We don't take the law into our own hands. But if a believer is a secular judge, and the death penalty is an option under the law of the land, then he could exercise it, and certainly should where appropriate.
Paul
Romans 13:1-4 MKJV
(1) Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.
(2) So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves.
(3) For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire to be not afraid of the authority? Do the good, and you shall have praise from it.
(4) For it is a servant of God to you for good. For if you practice evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, a revenger for wrath on him who does evil.
Doesn’t this answer your question? I believe so. God has put the sword in the hand of secular authorities, which serve under Him to dispense justice.
But because men have been selfish and wicked, they have sought to avoid the reality of God’s verdict on murder and other violent sins. This “compassionate” stance of governments, such as you presently have in England, has greatly spread evil rather than curtailed it. What else should we expect when there is no fear of retribution for evildoing?
Let me ask you a question, Rachel. How would you feel if you lived in Israel, which also doesn’t exercise the death penalty, and one of the many terrorists they let out of jail (as they’ve been wont to do in prisoner trades), committed a suicide attack that killed your son? Would you be against capital punishment after that?
Of course, such a tragedy wouldn’t happen without reason under God’s sovereignty, and I can tell you one of the prime reasons that it does happen is because people who justify letting murderers live reap what they sow.
As believers, however, we’re not given to exercise authority in contradiction to the secular authorities. We don't take the law into our own hands. But if a believer is a secular judge, and the death penalty is an option under the law of the land, then he could exercise it, and certainly should where appropriate.
Paul