Kelechi, here's an article that just came in today, rather relevant to our discussion Sunday night.
https://www.prageru.com/courses/politic ... ice-racist" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Listen to the Audio Recording: Kelechi's Bitterness Exposed About "The System" - August 21, 2016
The System
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Tang Williams
Re: The System
To me, those facts are not surprising. From 1986 to 1987 I went to New Zealand and stayed with my grandma. She lived in the highest crime rate and most violent suburb in Auckland. We lived in a black community mostly Polynesians (including Maori's) and other Pacific islanders.
I have seen gang fights and other forms of violence on the streets in our suburb. I was always on edge walking the streets and, in the middle of the night I would hear police sirens all night. It was always black against black crime. Alcohol and drugs was a very normal part of life. Every black home I visited always had parties and violence, even on a school night. If you have seen the movie, 'Once were warriors' you would know what I am talking about. The movie was not an exaggeration but a watered down version of what it was really like, to suit the audiences pallet. The movie was made in the suburb where my grandma lives.
Although, I lived in a black neighbourhood, I had to travel (30 minutes) over the bridge to go to the 'white' high school on my bicycle. Yet, there was a 'black' high school just a few minutes walk from grandma's doorstep. The kids there were different at the 'white' school. They were well mannered, extremely academic and had a good command of the english language. They lived in a no crime neighbourhood and still living with their two original parents unlike us black kids from the other side of the motorway. They had clean and beautiful homes too.
Big differences in behaviour. However, in my personal observation, I saw culture not race as the biggest effect on behaviour hence crime rate. Even my own family [I'm not talking about my kids and wife] would commit a crime towards me, and they have.
However, the media are always distorting the facts. Just like the hirelings distorting the truth. They both hook people who don't know the truth into bondage! And, some would protect their bondage, even with violence!
I have seen gang fights and other forms of violence on the streets in our suburb. I was always on edge walking the streets and, in the middle of the night I would hear police sirens all night. It was always black against black crime. Alcohol and drugs was a very normal part of life. Every black home I visited always had parties and violence, even on a school night. If you have seen the movie, 'Once were warriors' you would know what I am talking about. The movie was not an exaggeration but a watered down version of what it was really like, to suit the audiences pallet. The movie was made in the suburb where my grandma lives.
Although, I lived in a black neighbourhood, I had to travel (30 minutes) over the bridge to go to the 'white' high school on my bicycle. Yet, there was a 'black' high school just a few minutes walk from grandma's doorstep. The kids there were different at the 'white' school. They were well mannered, extremely academic and had a good command of the english language. They lived in a no crime neighbourhood and still living with their two original parents unlike us black kids from the other side of the motorway. They had clean and beautiful homes too.
Big differences in behaviour. However, in my personal observation, I saw culture not race as the biggest effect on behaviour hence crime rate. Even my own family [I'm not talking about my kids and wife] would commit a crime towards me, and they have.
However, the media are always distorting the facts. Just like the hirelings distorting the truth. They both hook people who don't know the truth into bondage! And, some would protect their bondage, even with violence!
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Luan Cartwright
Re: The System
May I add?
It's chilling to know Tang that once were warriors is watered down, it hardly surprises me though, after some of the things I've witnessed from people of all races, cultures and so called creeds. I confess I've been just as despicable as Jake the muss in my former drunken days (our Lord has put it on me to be totally abstinent from all forms of addiction I was in bondage to)
I just cannot even imagine what it was like for you to go through all that first hand. I've seen and experienced some pretty horrifying things growing up in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. I recall a time my sister and I were in our teens and a group of about 10 Arab men violently harassed us and stole my sisters bag, then again we shouldn't have been walking home at 3am.
That's just one thing I care to mention in any sort of detail right now, there's a lot more but I feel even reminiscing on such evil could invite it back into my life, and I get quite sad thinking about it. I have a lot of growing in Christ to do. But I digress..
Black crime has been highlighted in the media here too recently. With the emergence of a so called "apex gang" consisting mainly if not entirely of African youths who have been responsible for recent violent home invasions and car jackings, to such a degree there have been comparisons drawn between Melbourne and the crime rate in Johannesburg.
I honestly cannot tell if it's the media fear mongering or if it actually is getting that bad. My 18 year old brother has a lot of African friends, and has said he knows some of them are in this gang, which has been strongly influenced by black american gangster rap culture.
Godlessness really is most heinous isn't it? Ultimately it is part of His plan though, and I dare not question it on any sort of fundamental level anymore.
May He give us the strength to endure.
It's chilling to know Tang that once were warriors is watered down, it hardly surprises me though, after some of the things I've witnessed from people of all races, cultures and so called creeds. I confess I've been just as despicable as Jake the muss in my former drunken days (our Lord has put it on me to be totally abstinent from all forms of addiction I was in bondage to)
I just cannot even imagine what it was like for you to go through all that first hand. I've seen and experienced some pretty horrifying things growing up in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. I recall a time my sister and I were in our teens and a group of about 10 Arab men violently harassed us and stole my sisters bag, then again we shouldn't have been walking home at 3am.
That's just one thing I care to mention in any sort of detail right now, there's a lot more but I feel even reminiscing on such evil could invite it back into my life, and I get quite sad thinking about it. I have a lot of growing in Christ to do. But I digress..
Black crime has been highlighted in the media here too recently. With the emergence of a so called "apex gang" consisting mainly if not entirely of African youths who have been responsible for recent violent home invasions and car jackings, to such a degree there have been comparisons drawn between Melbourne and the crime rate in Johannesburg.
I honestly cannot tell if it's the media fear mongering or if it actually is getting that bad. My 18 year old brother has a lot of African friends, and has said he knows some of them are in this gang, which has been strongly influenced by black american gangster rap culture.
Godlessness really is most heinous isn't it? Ultimately it is part of His plan though, and I dare not question it on any sort of fundamental level anymore.
May He give us the strength to endure.
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Kelechi Ogbaa
Re: The System
So in short, black people are the most wicked and disgusting of all men and we deserve everything that's happening to us.
It's our conduct that merits our treatment.
And there's no such thing as racism, people don't hate our skin color, they hate how we behave.
We need to stop whining about us being killed and take responsibility for our actions and not do the things that would get us killed.
O and we have no right to be angry about cops killing us because we kill eachother. So it's ok for that to continue until we clean up our conduct and community because that's our judgement.
It's our conduct that merits our treatment.
And there's no such thing as racism, people don't hate our skin color, they hate how we behave.
We need to stop whining about us being killed and take responsibility for our actions and not do the things that would get us killed.
O and we have no right to be angry about cops killing us because we kill eachother. So it's ok for that to continue until we clean up our conduct and community because that's our judgement.
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Martin Van Popta
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:03 am
- Location: Iron Springs, Alberta
Re: The System
I'm not sure what you're saying here, Kelechi. It seems sarcastic, but I'm not certain.
I don't believe that anybody is saying that "black people are the most wicked and disgusting of all men." It's not a matter of categorizing or labeling. However, the part where they deserve everything that is happening to them is certain fact. And yes, it is conduct that merits reward, whether good or bad.
Could you clarify where you're coming from?
I don't believe that anybody is saying that "black people are the most wicked and disgusting of all men." It's not a matter of categorizing or labeling. However, the part where they deserve everything that is happening to them is certain fact. And yes, it is conduct that merits reward, whether good or bad.
Could you clarify where you're coming from?
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Kelechi Ogbaa
Re: The System
I'm paraphrasing everything that has been said on the subject.
Skin color means nothing, it's all about the culture and psychology of the individual or groups of individuals.
Not every black person fits the category people want to place them in.
Has God never given His Spirit to a black person before?
The judgement isn't on black people, it's on a group of people who happen to be black.
That is the only point I've been trying to make.
Black is not a culture of people. It's a skin pigmentation.
There are wicked sub cultures who happen to be black but when you use the phrase "black people" that's all inclusive, spanning every culture and heritage, touching everyone with dark skin.
Skin color means nothing, it's all about the culture and psychology of the individual or groups of individuals.
Not every black person fits the category people want to place them in.
Has God never given His Spirit to a black person before?
The judgement isn't on black people, it's on a group of people who happen to be black.
That is the only point I've been trying to make.
Black is not a culture of people. It's a skin pigmentation.
There are wicked sub cultures who happen to be black but when you use the phrase "black people" that's all inclusive, spanning every culture and heritage, touching everyone with dark skin.
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Kelechi Ogbaa
Re: The System
Racist white men may have made it about skin color but you're not certainly suggesting God hates black skin too? Or that His judgement is based on the black skin? Or rather His judgement is on people who happen to have black skin?
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Dennison Rivera
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:53 am
Re: The System
Kelechi,
You may hate what I'm about to say, and you may even think that it may have nothing to do with what you're saying.
You're simply not getting it.
"Rokkaman", "K-Rock", needs to go.
There are black people in Latin American countries that are not treated any different based on their skin color, they are simply Honduran, Colombian, or etc.
This isn't about your skin color, however you're missing the crux of the issue. Simply because your refusing to accept the real issue, and you rather identify yourself as a victim. You get obsessed and suffer through these tangents because you are not believing what is actually being said.
You may hate what I'm about to say, and you may even think that it may have nothing to do with what you're saying.
You're simply not getting it.
"Rokkaman", "K-Rock", needs to go.
There are black people in Latin American countries that are not treated any different based on their skin color, they are simply Honduran, Colombian, or etc.
This isn't about your skin color, however you're missing the crux of the issue. Simply because your refusing to accept the real issue, and you rather identify yourself as a victim. You get obsessed and suffer through these tangents because you are not believing what is actually being said.
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Kelechi Ogbaa
Re: The System
I haven't disagreed with anything except the fact that it's not about "black skin"
If anyone is saying there is an issue with black skin or black people. I cannot agree
Now if there's an issue with people who you can describe and identify as having black skin, then I wholly agree. These people have a problem and are receiving the judgement for their problem. But it has nothing to do with them being black as far as God is concerned.
If people mistreat them because of their blackness, may it very well be one of the many forms of judgement God is using, their reason isn't God's reason.
God is dealing with sin whereas others may be dealing with skin...
Am I wrong in saying it's not about the skin color?
And what you're saying about Honduras is true for some, not for all. You live in a fantasy world if you think people aren't mistreated for black skin all over the world, including hondurus...
I don't care to be a victim, anything the Lord has me to drink, I'll drink it regardless how bitter. I've tasted His sovereignty and know I have no choice or power over anything He declares to happen. What does being a victim gain me when I know who's in control of every detail in my life?
If anyone is saying there is an issue with black skin or black people. I cannot agree
Now if there's an issue with people who you can describe and identify as having black skin, then I wholly agree. These people have a problem and are receiving the judgement for their problem. But it has nothing to do with them being black as far as God is concerned.
If people mistreat them because of their blackness, may it very well be one of the many forms of judgement God is using, their reason isn't God's reason.
God is dealing with sin whereas others may be dealing with skin...
Am I wrong in saying it's not about the skin color?
And what you're saying about Honduras is true for some, not for all. You live in a fantasy world if you think people aren't mistreated for black skin all over the world, including hondurus...
I don't care to be a victim, anything the Lord has me to drink, I'll drink it regardless how bitter. I've tasted His sovereignty and know I have no choice or power over anything He declares to happen. What does being a victim gain me when I know who's in control of every detail in my life?
Last edited by Kelechi Ogbaa on Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dennison Rivera
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:53 am
Re: The System
The things you are stating have nothing to do with the real issue.
It's not a question of whether I understand you, rather it's pointing out that your not understanding because you don't believe.
That's all I'm saying, you have an issue in your heart that your not addressing. This whole skin color thing your attempting to grasp for understanding is simply a scapegoat.
It's not a question of whether I understand you, rather it's pointing out that your not understanding because you don't believe.
That's all I'm saying, you have an issue in your heart that your not addressing. This whole skin color thing your attempting to grasp for understanding is simply a scapegoat.
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Dennison Rivera
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:53 am
Re: The System
Where your heart is at, K. Or simply put, your heart.
Get rid of "Rokkaman" in every way possible.
I'm heading to sleep. Good night.
Get rid of "Rokkaman" in every way possible.
I'm heading to sleep. Good night.
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Beryl Knipe
Re: The System
Hi everyone,
In response to Luan's note: "...to such a degree there have been comparisons drawn between Melbourne and the crime rate in Johannesburg..."
I live and have lived in Johannesburg my entire life, having spent three years in the then Rhodesia and a year in Botswana. As I sit here, now, reading and writing, I hear the birds singing, the distant sound of dogs barking; the sun is shining and there's a cool breeze blowing. Life is good and I thank God.
I can't explain exact circumstances, but, since democracy (not skin colour) hit our shores in 1994, every single thing has gone down, down, down. Crime, corruption and greed are soaring in the present government. Cities, towns and suburbs, once beautiful, are in ruins! There isn't one government department that is run correctly and justly - not one! I have red the book, Capitalist Nigger, written by Chika Onyeani, which explains much of what is happening in Africa.
What I have been given to understand is... virtually every person, here, in South Africa clings on to their "tribal" roots and culture (which leave much to be desired), whether they're in a boardroom or in a dilapidated shack - they have forsaken Almighty God, under the pretense of calling themselves "Zionists." Approximately 40% of the population are Zionists, besides all the hundreds of little offshoots, calling themselves "Christians" (and, sad but true,) each offshoot - including Zionists - stems from the doctrine of the Catholic Church - a most wicked doctrine.
As far as black on white and white on black and black on black violence - the media and the left-wing limousine liberals have a lot to answer for!
Jeremiah 7:23 "But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey My Voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you." (KJV).
Which government - on this earth today - and how many people on the earth today (around 7.125 billion?) obey His Voice and His Commandments? (Deuteronomy 28).
No matter our pigmentation, Lord Jesus Christ has given us ALL the very same opportunity - but, do we "endure sound doctrine" or do we "turn away?"
2 Timothy 4:3-4
"(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(4)And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (KJV).
I didn't know what was meant by "Rokkaman." I looked it up. It reads: "Not often will you find a diamond in the dirt, a rose growing out of the concrete, nor an anomaly such as RokkaMan." Really??
Beryl.
In response to Luan's note: "...to such a degree there have been comparisons drawn between Melbourne and the crime rate in Johannesburg..."
I live and have lived in Johannesburg my entire life, having spent three years in the then Rhodesia and a year in Botswana. As I sit here, now, reading and writing, I hear the birds singing, the distant sound of dogs barking; the sun is shining and there's a cool breeze blowing. Life is good and I thank God.
I can't explain exact circumstances, but, since democracy (not skin colour) hit our shores in 1994, every single thing has gone down, down, down. Crime, corruption and greed are soaring in the present government. Cities, towns and suburbs, once beautiful, are in ruins! There isn't one government department that is run correctly and justly - not one! I have red the book, Capitalist Nigger, written by Chika Onyeani, which explains much of what is happening in Africa.
What I have been given to understand is... virtually every person, here, in South Africa clings on to their "tribal" roots and culture (which leave much to be desired), whether they're in a boardroom or in a dilapidated shack - they have forsaken Almighty God, under the pretense of calling themselves "Zionists." Approximately 40% of the population are Zionists, besides all the hundreds of little offshoots, calling themselves "Christians" (and, sad but true,) each offshoot - including Zionists - stems from the doctrine of the Catholic Church - a most wicked doctrine.
As far as black on white and white on black and black on black violence - the media and the left-wing limousine liberals have a lot to answer for!
Jeremiah 7:23 "But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey My Voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you." (KJV).
Which government - on this earth today - and how many people on the earth today (around 7.125 billion?) obey His Voice and His Commandments? (Deuteronomy 28).
No matter our pigmentation, Lord Jesus Christ has given us ALL the very same opportunity - but, do we "endure sound doctrine" or do we "turn away?"
2 Timothy 4:3-4
"(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(4)And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (KJV).
I didn't know what was meant by "Rokkaman." I looked it up. It reads: "Not often will you find a diamond in the dirt, a rose growing out of the concrete, nor an anomaly such as RokkaMan." Really??
Beryl.
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Beryl Knipe
Re: The System
Kelechi, what I mean by really, is this: Do people really place this person on a pedestal and listen to that type of stuff, really?
Sorry, Kelechi, I thought the "really" might have been clearer.
Beryl.
Sorry, Kelechi, I thought the "really" might have been clearer.
Beryl.
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Simon Hall
Re: The System
Kelechi, do you know why this conversation is going around in circles? Because of the man of sin within you. This whole thing is getting out of hand because you are lying to yourself.
And yes, I don’t think, but I know skin and racism still bothers you, and this whole conversation proves it.
As far as I am aware, neither on the conference call from over a week ago, or on the forum since, have you acknowledged you were in wrongness when you were pulled over by the police and you rejected the policeman’s request to search your vehicle. During that conference call, you were righteously judged about your attitude and rebellion, with multiple witnesses in agreement. If you have since acknowledged your wrongness and repented of it, I didn’t read about it or hear about it. I remember thinking at the time how in your mind you seemed to be justified in your attitude and actions towards the police.
And so this whole conversation topic keeps going, perpetuated by your unwillingness to accept the truth and repent of your sin.
This has nothing to do with black and white, and has everything to do with you. That spirit of antichrist, alive and well.
There are more things that could be written about the following post that you wrote,
I would suggest that a man is not hated for the things that he has, but solely because of the condition of the heart of the man doing the hating. And that is why a man is always hated as you state, but not because of what he does or does not have, but because the heart of man is wicked as the scriptures state.
If you grew up being hated for every reason, by everyone, all the time, it sounds like you’re the only one that is doing right. Are you the only righteous one, Kelechi? Your words betray you. The fact that you made a completely blanket statement including everyone and everything, all the time, shows the condition of your heart.
Why should you only have a problem with your ignorance, while especially having a problem with the ignorance of others. Sounds to me like more self-righteousness on your part.
It’s through your ignorance that you cause yourself pain.
Femi, I don’t believe that you were on the conference call from over a week ago where this all started, and therefore, more than likely you are not aware of what transpired on that call that created this whole conversation topic. And so by standing alongside of Kelechi with your
And yes, I don’t think, but I know skin and racism still bothers you, and this whole conversation proves it.
As far as I am aware, neither on the conference call from over a week ago, or on the forum since, have you acknowledged you were in wrongness when you were pulled over by the police and you rejected the policeman’s request to search your vehicle. During that conference call, you were righteously judged about your attitude and rebellion, with multiple witnesses in agreement. If you have since acknowledged your wrongness and repented of it, I didn’t read about it or hear about it. I remember thinking at the time how in your mind you seemed to be justified in your attitude and actions towards the police.
And so this whole conversation topic keeps going, perpetuated by your unwillingness to accept the truth and repent of your sin.
This has nothing to do with black and white, and has everything to do with you. That spirit of antichrist, alive and well.
There are more things that could be written about the following post that you wrote,
.“A man is always hated. If not for his wealth, his wife. If not for his wife his children, if not for his children, his house. If not for his house, his clothes. If not for his clothes his poverty. If not for his poverty, his wickedness. If not for his wickedness his righteousness.
I grew up being hated for every reason by everyone, all the time. You really think skin and racism bothers me anymore? If I have a problem its with ignorance. My own but especially others. It's through our ignorance we cause eachother pain.”
I would suggest that a man is not hated for the things that he has, but solely because of the condition of the heart of the man doing the hating. And that is why a man is always hated as you state, but not because of what he does or does not have, but because the heart of man is wicked as the scriptures state.
If you grew up being hated for every reason, by everyone, all the time, it sounds like you’re the only one that is doing right. Are you the only righteous one, Kelechi? Your words betray you. The fact that you made a completely blanket statement including everyone and everything, all the time, shows the condition of your heart.
Why should you only have a problem with your ignorance, while especially having a problem with the ignorance of others. Sounds to me like more self-righteousness on your part.
It’s through your ignorance that you cause yourself pain.
Femi, I don’t believe that you were on the conference call from over a week ago where this all started, and therefore, more than likely you are not aware of what transpired on that call that created this whole conversation topic. And so by standing alongside of Kelechi with your
comment, without godly judgement, you are adding fuel to the fire."What then is the real issue, Dennison?”
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Paul Cohen
Re: The System
Simon is right, Kelechi and Femi.
Kelechi, your focus is on man, not God, and that's because you focus on yourself as God. That's why you didn't understand Beryl's "really," or anything else that's been said to you thus far.
"The light of the body is the eye. Therefore when your eye is sound, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is evil, your body also is full of darkness. Therefore take heed that the light in you is not darkness" (Luke 11:34-35 MKJV).
Paul
Kelechi, your focus is on man, not God, and that's because you focus on yourself as God. That's why you didn't understand Beryl's "really," or anything else that's been said to you thus far.
"The light of the body is the eye. Therefore when your eye is sound, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is evil, your body also is full of darkness. Therefore take heed that the light in you is not darkness" (Luke 11:34-35 MKJV).
Paul
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Kelechi Ogbaa
Re: The System
There's a lot for me to learn and understand. If it's not through learning and understanding, it's through faith that God gives. I've simply not been given the faith to receive anything you guys are saying because it doesn't sound right.
Your words aren't quenching whatever i'm feeling.
And i'm sure it's because I don't believe... the problem is me and has
always been... no need to blame others.
Simon you said - I would suggest that a man is not hated for the things that he has, but solely because of the condition of the heart of the man doing the hating. And that is why a man is always hated as you state, but not because of what he does or does not have, but because the heart of man is wicked as the scriptures state.
Is that fully true? Didn't God hate Esau and love Jacob? Doesn't God hate wicked sinners? Does He hate them or the sin they do? Didn't Martin just a few days ago say he hated a man who worked on the farm and it was ok to hate him? Wasn't it because of the sin the man was doing or was it because of the condition of Martin's heart?
When is it ok to hate and when is it not? When the Lord gives you to hate?
Did Martin not hate the man because of Martin's experience with him? So if I experience racism, am I disqualified from hating even when the person is clearly unrepentant and in sin?
But the difference is because Martin has the Holy Spirit right? And His hatred is a holy one from the Lord and my hatred can only be wicked i'm sure?
Even though a man is a sinner, should he not hate the sins he himself commits? or the sins other's commit? If His heart is right with the Lord, when should he ever be ok with sin?
What happened with the police officer happened maybe 8 years ago... did I think I was righteous back then? No. Do I think I was righteous back then? No.
So the "crux" is that I am not acknowledging that I was wrong for declining a search from the police officer... that it was a sin to refuse him.
I don't understand how. And so I can't acknowledge what I don't know because then i'd be lying if I did.
Sin is a transgression of the law.
The officer had no probable cause to search my vehicle. So when he asked, being well within my legal rights as a citizen, I politely declined and stated "I don't consent to a search"
That's why he had to come up with a lie to do it.
I had nothing to hide but I also didn't have time to waste because I was on the road for 3 hours and wanted to get home quickly. I was hoping my decline would speed up the process.
He then searched and found nothing. No harm done except my time wasted. (which would've happened either way)
Was I wrong?
Not sure of what except blaming it on racism.
Did he do it because I was black? I don't know, maybe, maybe not.
To think that he did all these years "because I was black" yes I acknowledge i'm wrong for that. There was no reason to jump to that conclusion and hold in that bitterness all these years. Though his attitude and how he spoke to me made me feel he thought I was inferior, there's no telling exactly why he treated me the way he did. And to assume and blame it on racism wasn't right. I can definitely acknowledge that.
"My blanket statement" wasn't to justify myself and claim I am righteous.
I made that statement to acknowledge that even Christ was hated, albeit for his righteousness. So if even He was hated by wicked men, and wicked men hate each other... we will not escape hatred whether we are righteous or wicked. I honestly felt I was making the case for why it shouldn't bother me. It's reality...
Guess I'm yet unrepentant... the Lord deal with me as needed.
Your words aren't quenching whatever i'm feeling.
And i'm sure it's because I don't believe... the problem is me and has
always been... no need to blame others.
Simon you said - I would suggest that a man is not hated for the things that he has, but solely because of the condition of the heart of the man doing the hating. And that is why a man is always hated as you state, but not because of what he does or does not have, but because the heart of man is wicked as the scriptures state.
Is that fully true? Didn't God hate Esau and love Jacob? Doesn't God hate wicked sinners? Does He hate them or the sin they do? Didn't Martin just a few days ago say he hated a man who worked on the farm and it was ok to hate him? Wasn't it because of the sin the man was doing or was it because of the condition of Martin's heart?
When is it ok to hate and when is it not? When the Lord gives you to hate?
Did Martin not hate the man because of Martin's experience with him? So if I experience racism, am I disqualified from hating even when the person is clearly unrepentant and in sin?
But the difference is because Martin has the Holy Spirit right? And His hatred is a holy one from the Lord and my hatred can only be wicked i'm sure?
Even though a man is a sinner, should he not hate the sins he himself commits? or the sins other's commit? If His heart is right with the Lord, when should he ever be ok with sin?
What happened with the police officer happened maybe 8 years ago... did I think I was righteous back then? No. Do I think I was righteous back then? No.
So the "crux" is that I am not acknowledging that I was wrong for declining a search from the police officer... that it was a sin to refuse him.
I don't understand how. And so I can't acknowledge what I don't know because then i'd be lying if I did.
Sin is a transgression of the law.
The officer had no probable cause to search my vehicle. So when he asked, being well within my legal rights as a citizen, I politely declined and stated "I don't consent to a search"
That's why he had to come up with a lie to do it.
I had nothing to hide but I also didn't have time to waste because I was on the road for 3 hours and wanted to get home quickly. I was hoping my decline would speed up the process.
He then searched and found nothing. No harm done except my time wasted. (which would've happened either way)
Was I wrong?
Not sure of what except blaming it on racism.
Did he do it because I was black? I don't know, maybe, maybe not.
To think that he did all these years "because I was black" yes I acknowledge i'm wrong for that. There was no reason to jump to that conclusion and hold in that bitterness all these years. Though his attitude and how he spoke to me made me feel he thought I was inferior, there's no telling exactly why he treated me the way he did. And to assume and blame it on racism wasn't right. I can definitely acknowledge that.
"My blanket statement" wasn't to justify myself and claim I am righteous.
I made that statement to acknowledge that even Christ was hated, albeit for his righteousness. So if even He was hated by wicked men, and wicked men hate each other... we will not escape hatred whether we are righteous or wicked. I honestly felt I was making the case for why it shouldn't bother me. It's reality...
Guess I'm yet unrepentant... the Lord deal with me as needed.
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Martin Van Popta
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:03 am
- Location: Iron Springs, Alberta
Re: The System
Kelechi, the ability to edit your post is available for repairing grammar and spelling or adding something moments after posting if you posted prematurely. It's not for adding or subtracting from the content or message of your posts. It makes the other people speaking to you sound schizophrenic and irrational.
If you want to retract something that you wrote because you regret it, then write a new post explaining your regret. If you made a point that wasn't clear, then write a new post to clearly explain that point. If you forgot to include a thought or want to respond to something that somebody said then it's best to do it in a new post.
This way everybody can clearly understand why people are responding the way they are and are quoting you as saying certain things. It's always best to let the record stand so everybody can deal with the facts.
If you want to retract something that you wrote because you regret it, then write a new post explaining your regret. If you made a point that wasn't clear, then write a new post to clearly explain that point. If you forgot to include a thought or want to respond to something that somebody said then it's best to do it in a new post.
This way everybody can clearly understand why people are responding the way they are and are quoting you as saying certain things. It's always best to let the record stand so everybody can deal with the facts.
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Kelechi Ogbaa
Re: The System
OK, I'm sorry Martin.
Sometimes I reread and think I wasn't clear enough or concise. I'll do that from now on.
Sometimes I reread and think I wasn't clear enough or concise. I'll do that from now on.
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: The System
Amen, Simon, well spoken in Truth for Kelechi and Femi.
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Martin Van Popta
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:03 am
- Location: Iron Springs, Alberta
Re: The System
Kelechi, I'd like to respond to your thoughts including the ones about me hating Mark Benson.
The Lord was dealing with my heart in that whole mess.
Mark was a wicked man. He was a lazy, lying, thieving, murdering devil. I had many confrontations with him over the course of the six months that I was in authority over him. I fancied myself a nice guy at the beginning. Much nicer than him. I tried to be diplomatic. I tried hating the sin and not the sinner. I thought I was such a long suffering, patient, forgiving guy. I learned otherwise. I was constantly frustrated with him, and always found myself trying rebuke him with some hope for him. Kind of like the way that a father has hope for a son, or a teacher has hope for the student. It was so foolish.
I tried so hard to keep myself from hatred. Now let me clarify this. I had always been a condescending, cynical, arrogant man. I hated everyone but I covered it up with good intentions and a righteous composure.
In reality, I was trying hard to keep my righteous composure and it was killing me. I was the religious self righteous man trying to keep the letter of the law (as in "thou shalt not hate your neighbor."), rather than keeping the Spirit of the Law.
I had to come to terms with a few things.
I hated Mark. Inside and out. I could hardly look at him.
I was so intent on being a "better person" that I couldn't come to terms with it. I was resisting the Lord. He was requiring me to be honest about my unrighteous hatred and cynicism towards others AND requiring me to hate Mark for His sake.
I believed somewhere inside that righteous hatred was "hating the sin but not the sinner". The Lord showed me this was religious garbage. Righteous hatred has nothing to do with separating the crime from the criminal. I was very wrong.
Righteous hatred = hating those that the Lord hates the way the He hates them for the reasons that He hates them. In other words, hating as He hates.
Kelechi, you asked "When is it ok to hate and when is it not? When the Lord gives you to hate?"
Yes, exactly.
You ask, "Doesn't God hate wicked sinners? Does He hate them or the sin they do?"
There are times when despite a person's sin the Lord gives us to love them because He loves them. It's about His Heart and Will in the matter. After all, didn't he die while we were yet sinners? Isn't that loving the sinner? He always hates sin and there are always consequences for sin, but whether He loves or hates a man is up to Him. Who can understand? Surely none of us deserve His Love!
You ask, "Did Martin not hate the man because of Martin's experience with him?"
No, I have had many bad experiences with people and lots of people have done wrong against me, but I've forgiven them and don't hate them. I hate Mark because the Lord hates him. The Lord hates Mark because of HIS experience with him.
You ask, "So if I experience racism, am I disqualified from hating even when the person is clearly unrepentant and in sin?"
Yes, you are. 100% disqualified. After all, you haven't repented of racism yourself. Hating a racist would make you a murderer AND a hypocrite. Should we hate you?
You ask, "But the difference is because Martin has the Holy Spirit right? And His hatred is a holy one from the Lord and my hatred can only be wicked i'm sure?"
I can only guess that this is bitter sarcasm. Not good. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You ask, "Even though a man is a sinner, should he not hate the sins he himself commits? or the sins other's commit? If His heart is right with the Lord, when should he ever be ok with sin?"
Nobody should be okay with any sin. You are asking silly questions for the sake of confusion. I think we all agree that sin is bad.
You say, "So the "crux" is that I am not acknowledging that I was wrong for declining a search from the police officer... that it was a sin to refuse him."
Yes. You confess that you weren't righteous back then, while simultaneously insisting that your actions were righteous. If the tree is diseased, isn't the fruit diseased as well? Can a wicked man have righteous conduct? No, you were fully antiChrist then, just as you are now.
You say, "Sin is a transgression of the law", and then you carry on to carnally defend your wicked conduct by the letter of the carnal law.
Sin is a transgression of HIS LAW, which you've trashed and continue to trash.
You say, "And so I can't acknowledge what I don't know because then i'd be lying if I did."
Translation: I'm right and you're wrong and I'm so righteously honest that I'll boldly declare it.
You say, "Guess I'm yet unrepentant... the Lord deal with me as needed."
Yes you are and yes He has, is, and will.
Femi, will you takes sides with race or the Risen Lord?
Dennison, Beryl, Simon and Paul are right on. Kelechi, it appears you are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Your move.
The Lord was dealing with my heart in that whole mess.
Mark was a wicked man. He was a lazy, lying, thieving, murdering devil. I had many confrontations with him over the course of the six months that I was in authority over him. I fancied myself a nice guy at the beginning. Much nicer than him. I tried to be diplomatic. I tried hating the sin and not the sinner. I thought I was such a long suffering, patient, forgiving guy. I learned otherwise. I was constantly frustrated with him, and always found myself trying rebuke him with some hope for him. Kind of like the way that a father has hope for a son, or a teacher has hope for the student. It was so foolish.
I tried so hard to keep myself from hatred. Now let me clarify this. I had always been a condescending, cynical, arrogant man. I hated everyone but I covered it up with good intentions and a righteous composure.
In reality, I was trying hard to keep my righteous composure and it was killing me. I was the religious self righteous man trying to keep the letter of the law (as in "thou shalt not hate your neighbor."), rather than keeping the Spirit of the Law.
I had to come to terms with a few things.
I hated Mark. Inside and out. I could hardly look at him.
I was so intent on being a "better person" that I couldn't come to terms with it. I was resisting the Lord. He was requiring me to be honest about my unrighteous hatred and cynicism towards others AND requiring me to hate Mark for His sake.
I believed somewhere inside that righteous hatred was "hating the sin but not the sinner". The Lord showed me this was religious garbage. Righteous hatred has nothing to do with separating the crime from the criminal. I was very wrong.
Righteous hatred = hating those that the Lord hates the way the He hates them for the reasons that He hates them. In other words, hating as He hates.
Kelechi, you asked "When is it ok to hate and when is it not? When the Lord gives you to hate?"
Yes, exactly.
You ask, "Doesn't God hate wicked sinners? Does He hate them or the sin they do?"
There are times when despite a person's sin the Lord gives us to love them because He loves them. It's about His Heart and Will in the matter. After all, didn't he die while we were yet sinners? Isn't that loving the sinner? He always hates sin and there are always consequences for sin, but whether He loves or hates a man is up to Him. Who can understand? Surely none of us deserve His Love!
You ask, "Did Martin not hate the man because of Martin's experience with him?"
No, I have had many bad experiences with people and lots of people have done wrong against me, but I've forgiven them and don't hate them. I hate Mark because the Lord hates him. The Lord hates Mark because of HIS experience with him.
You ask, "So if I experience racism, am I disqualified from hating even when the person is clearly unrepentant and in sin?"
Yes, you are. 100% disqualified. After all, you haven't repented of racism yourself. Hating a racist would make you a murderer AND a hypocrite. Should we hate you?
You ask, "But the difference is because Martin has the Holy Spirit right? And His hatred is a holy one from the Lord and my hatred can only be wicked i'm sure?"
I can only guess that this is bitter sarcasm. Not good. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You ask, "Even though a man is a sinner, should he not hate the sins he himself commits? or the sins other's commit? If His heart is right with the Lord, when should he ever be ok with sin?"
Nobody should be okay with any sin. You are asking silly questions for the sake of confusion. I think we all agree that sin is bad.
You say, "So the "crux" is that I am not acknowledging that I was wrong for declining a search from the police officer... that it was a sin to refuse him."
Yes. You confess that you weren't righteous back then, while simultaneously insisting that your actions were righteous. If the tree is diseased, isn't the fruit diseased as well? Can a wicked man have righteous conduct? No, you were fully antiChrist then, just as you are now.
You say, "Sin is a transgression of the law", and then you carry on to carnally defend your wicked conduct by the letter of the carnal law.
Sin is a transgression of HIS LAW, which you've trashed and continue to trash.
You say, "And so I can't acknowledge what I don't know because then i'd be lying if I did."
Translation: I'm right and you're wrong and I'm so righteously honest that I'll boldly declare it.
You say, "Guess I'm yet unrepentant... the Lord deal with me as needed."
Yes you are and yes He has, is, and will.
Femi, will you takes sides with race or the Risen Lord?
Dennison, Beryl, Simon and Paul are right on. Kelechi, it appears you are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Your move.
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Simon Hall
Re: The System
Kelechi, I had started to right a response for everything that you wrote in your last post, but I deleted it all.
The truth is, you are confused and you contradict yourself in the things that you say.
I see a person who is still acting the victim, even though you will probably disagree.
Comparing yourself to others, is unbelief.
The truth is, you are confused and you contradict yourself in the things that you say.
I see a person who is still acting the victim, even though you will probably disagree.
Comparing yourself to others, is unbelief.