Hey guys,
I'm not sure where to post this topic, but it is safe to say that I have many questions, and instead of trying to figure things out for myself, I will take God at face value: Come now, and let us reason together
So, I doubt that we can deny that we are to humbly follow the "laws of the land", unless God specifically instructs us to do otherwise, whether by law or personal admonition. I also want to emphasize that I am not looking to cheat the system for my own unjust gain; I am simply trying to get to the root of what seems to me a matter of importance.
It could hardly be denied that our tax money, wherever we may live, supports many, many things of dubious or outright evil nature. I don't presume to declare an exhaustive list, but some things that come to mind:
1.) Abortion [clearly violating Thou Shalt Not Kill, and I doubt that killing by proxy is justified, since even unrighteous anger is judged to be murder]
2.) "Homosexual" and "transsexual" indoctrination of children, even going so far as to perform heinous "hormone replacement therapy" and "sex change" surgeries
3.) Subsidies for terribly destructive agricultural and industrial practises
4.) Support for ecumenism, Islam, and all manner of false religion
5.) Unjust war (this is a big one), leading to the murder of millions
6.) Covert drug trafficking and "big pharma", destroying the lives of millions dependent on "medicine" such as Xanax
7.) Payroll for corrupt officials
8.) Satanic Marxist indoctrination in "higher education"
Now, I understand that God is in control of all things, and that these things have to run their course. I cannot help but perceive a contradiction, however--if the state should urge a believing physician to perform abortion, ought he humbly to accept and do as he's told? What is the difference between paying taxes, knowing that they serve to accomplish such abomination, and getting our own hands dirty?
In the context of the US [I'm Swedish, but I want to use an internationally well-known example], the Federal Reserve is an unconstitutional institution, and it is commonly recognized (and even more commonly overlooked, but does this excuse us?) that the constitution (though authored by Satanic Freemasons and Deists) is the foundation of law, and that no law is valid if not in agreement with it?
I would appreciate counsel on this. Note that I have not committed tax fraud--I just desire to hear what you have to say.
Paying taxes
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Dennison Rivera
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:53 am
Re: Paying taxes
Hi Adam,
Matthew 22:17-21 (KJV)
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Matthew 22:17-21 (KJV)
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: Paying taxes
Hi Adam,
Well, this reply took a while didn't it?
I understand your concern about taxation - whom we should honor and under what conditions. The Bible answers all questions by the power of the Lord.
What government is justified in God's sight? You mention the US government with its constitution - formed by Freemasons and Deists. You mention the Federal Reserve - an unconstitutional institution, and Satanic Marxists, under permission in the US republic - all rulers of a sort.
Which of these are of God or not of God?
"Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God" (Romans 13:1 MKJV).
What did Jesus say to Pilate?
"Then Pilate said to him, Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to crucify you, and I have authority to release you?
"Jesus answered, You could have no authority against Me unless it were given to you from above. Therefore he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin" (John 19:10-11 MKJV).
To the Jews who tried to incriminate Him, Jesus said:
Mark 12:13-17 MKJV
(13) And they sent certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians to Him, to catch Him in His words.
(14) And coming, they said to Him, Teacher, we know that you are true and you care about no one. For you do not look to the face of men, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
(15) Shall we give, or shall we not give? But knowing their hypocrisy, He said to them, Why do you tempt Me? Bring me a denarius so that I may see.
(16) And they brought it. And He said to them, Whose image and inscription is this? And they said to Him, Caesar's.
(17) And answering Jesus said to them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at Him.
Are not all these governments in the jurisdiction of the prince of this world, albeit for appointed times? Was pagan, anti-Christ Rome a legitimate government in God's sight? What does Daniel have to say about that?
Daniel 2:31-45 MKJV
(31) You, O king, were seeing. And, behold! A great image! That great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before you. And its form was dreadful.
(32) This image's head was of fine gold; his breast and his arms were of silver; his belly and his thighs were of bronze;
(33) his legs were of iron; his feet were part of iron and part of clay.
(34) You watched until a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image upon its feet which were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
(35) Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were broken to pieces together. And they became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors. And the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
(36) This is the dream. And we will tell its meaning before the king.
(37) You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of Heaven has given you a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
(38) And wherever the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens live, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all. You are this head of gold.
(39) And after you shall arise another kingdom lower than you, and another third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
(40) And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron. Since iron crushes and smashes all things; and as the iron that shatters all these, it will crush and shatter.
(41) And as to that which you saw: the feet and toes, part of potters' clay and part of iron; the kingdom shall be divided. But there shall be in it the strength of the iron, because you saw the iron mixed with miry clay.
(42) And as the toes of the feet were part of iron and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
(43) And as you saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mix themselves with the seed of men. But they shall not cling to one another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
(44) And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
(45) Because you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it crushes the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what shall occur after this. And the dream is certain, and its meaning is sure.
If the head of the image (Babylon with Nebuchadnezzar) was of God, then so is Rome, represented by the iron legs and so are the succeeding body parts of the image down to the feet and toes of iron and clay, which are our governments in these last days.
So was Rome spending its taxation money from Joseph, Mary, the disciples and all Roman citizens, on goodly causes? We know better. Yet, we are to submit and pay tribute to all in authority, whether they tax us legitimately or otherwise, according to the Lord:
Matthew 17:24-27 KJV
(24) And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your Master pay tribute?
(25) He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
(26) Peter saith unto Him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
(27) Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee.
Should a physician who believes obey the authorities when they call on him to perform abortions, when they ask him to disobey God's Law of "Thou shalt not kill"? Of course, not. God's Law is always above man's law:
Acts 5:25-32 MKJV
(25) But one came, reporting to them, saying, Behold, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people.
(26) Then the commander went with the officers and brought them, not with force, for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned.
(27) And bringing them, they stood in the sanhedrin. And the high priest asked them,
(28) saying, Did we not strictly command you that you not teach in this name? And behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine and intend to bring this man's blood on us.
(29) And Peter and the apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
(30) The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed and hanged on a tree.
(31) This One God has exalted to be a Ruler and Savior to His right hand in order to give repentance and remission of sins to Israel.
(32) And we are His witnesses of these things. And so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.
Your duty as a believer in Christ is to pay tribute to the authorities in charge. It is not your business to determine how or where they received their authority to govern, or what they should do with your money. It is not your duty to break God's Law or to judge those in rule over you, no matter who they are - employers, police, judiciaries, governments or any others.
God has determined all authorities but your first place of obedience is to Him. He has commanded that you don't kill or do anything authorities have required of you that directly opposes or contradicts His Law or commands. There is no Law of God that directs you to disobey the rulers of this world, but He does command that we obey them.
Does that answer your questions satisfactorily? If not, ask on.
Well, this reply took a while didn't it?
I understand your concern about taxation - whom we should honor and under what conditions. The Bible answers all questions by the power of the Lord.
What government is justified in God's sight? You mention the US government with its constitution - formed by Freemasons and Deists. You mention the Federal Reserve - an unconstitutional institution, and Satanic Marxists, under permission in the US republic - all rulers of a sort.
Which of these are of God or not of God?
"Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God" (Romans 13:1 MKJV).
What did Jesus say to Pilate?
"Then Pilate said to him, Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to crucify you, and I have authority to release you?
"Jesus answered, You could have no authority against Me unless it were given to you from above. Therefore he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin" (John 19:10-11 MKJV).
To the Jews who tried to incriminate Him, Jesus said:
Mark 12:13-17 MKJV
(13) And they sent certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians to Him, to catch Him in His words.
(14) And coming, they said to Him, Teacher, we know that you are true and you care about no one. For you do not look to the face of men, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?
(15) Shall we give, or shall we not give? But knowing their hypocrisy, He said to them, Why do you tempt Me? Bring me a denarius so that I may see.
(16) And they brought it. And He said to them, Whose image and inscription is this? And they said to Him, Caesar's.
(17) And answering Jesus said to them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at Him.
Are not all these governments in the jurisdiction of the prince of this world, albeit for appointed times? Was pagan, anti-Christ Rome a legitimate government in God's sight? What does Daniel have to say about that?
Daniel 2:31-45 MKJV
(31) You, O king, were seeing. And, behold! A great image! That great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before you. And its form was dreadful.
(32) This image's head was of fine gold; his breast and his arms were of silver; his belly and his thighs were of bronze;
(33) his legs were of iron; his feet were part of iron and part of clay.
(34) You watched until a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image upon its feet which were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
(35) Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were broken to pieces together. And they became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors. And the wind carried them away, so that no place was found for them. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
(36) This is the dream. And we will tell its meaning before the king.
(37) You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of Heaven has given you a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
(38) And wherever the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens live, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all. You are this head of gold.
(39) And after you shall arise another kingdom lower than you, and another third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.
(40) And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron. Since iron crushes and smashes all things; and as the iron that shatters all these, it will crush and shatter.
(41) And as to that which you saw: the feet and toes, part of potters' clay and part of iron; the kingdom shall be divided. But there shall be in it the strength of the iron, because you saw the iron mixed with miry clay.
(42) And as the toes of the feet were part of iron and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
(43) And as you saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mix themselves with the seed of men. But they shall not cling to one another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
(44) And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
(45) Because you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it crushes the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what shall occur after this. And the dream is certain, and its meaning is sure.
If the head of the image (Babylon with Nebuchadnezzar) was of God, then so is Rome, represented by the iron legs and so are the succeeding body parts of the image down to the feet and toes of iron and clay, which are our governments in these last days.
So was Rome spending its taxation money from Joseph, Mary, the disciples and all Roman citizens, on goodly causes? We know better. Yet, we are to submit and pay tribute to all in authority, whether they tax us legitimately or otherwise, according to the Lord:
Matthew 17:24-27 KJV
(24) And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your Master pay tribute?
(25) He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
(26) Peter saith unto Him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
(27) Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee.
Should a physician who believes obey the authorities when they call on him to perform abortions, when they ask him to disobey God's Law of "Thou shalt not kill"? Of course, not. God's Law is always above man's law:
Acts 5:25-32 MKJV
(25) But one came, reporting to them, saying, Behold, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people.
(26) Then the commander went with the officers and brought them, not with force, for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned.
(27) And bringing them, they stood in the sanhedrin. And the high priest asked them,
(28) saying, Did we not strictly command you that you not teach in this name? And behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine and intend to bring this man's blood on us.
(29) And Peter and the apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
(30) The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed and hanged on a tree.
(31) This One God has exalted to be a Ruler and Savior to His right hand in order to give repentance and remission of sins to Israel.
(32) And we are His witnesses of these things. And so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.
Your duty as a believer in Christ is to pay tribute to the authorities in charge. It is not your business to determine how or where they received their authority to govern, or what they should do with your money. It is not your duty to break God's Law or to judge those in rule over you, no matter who they are - employers, police, judiciaries, governments or any others.
God has determined all authorities but your first place of obedience is to Him. He has commanded that you don't kill or do anything authorities have required of you that directly opposes or contradicts His Law or commands. There is no Law of God that directs you to disobey the rulers of this world, but He does command that we obey them.
Does that answer your questions satisfactorily? If not, ask on.
-
Kelechi Ogbaa
Re: Paying taxes
Hi Adam, I am no man of God but if I may share some input; for this question makes me ponder...
The Lord Himself submitted Himself to the punishment of sin as it was ordained
by the Father.
You have been submitted to sin and the rulers of it as ordained by the Same. You cannot escape where the Lord has placed you. If you think you're honoring God by not feeding into the tax system to which you are obliged, are you not offering your own sacrifices which are of no value to Him? Rather your concern may really be for your own benefit rather than for His. Are you more concerned about evil than He is? Are you more concerned with where your money shall go, than He is? Do you have the power to direct righteousness and evil? (Whether you pay or don't pay, will you be contributing to righteousness in doing so? How do you know?)
If you trust and rely on Him, all your issues and concerns will be satisfied in Him.
It's not your money or your land (where you dwell)... If they desire you to pay taxes, would you do them evil and refuse? Are you not a citizen with rights?
Do you think those rights are free because your nation loves you? Or because you pay for them in the form of taxes?
If the children of your own household did not obey your commands as a father, how much more is it an insult to not obey the commands of the nation you dwell in? What about not obeying the commands required in the Kingdom of God, where I suppose you desire to dwell in?
What do you hope to gain by not paying taxes? Will they save you from sin? Or destruction? or death?
As you said, if the Lord gives it to you, to do otherwise, that's one thing. If you decide it for yourself though, that's another... what has He said about such matters?
Matthew 6:25
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Do we desire our desires? Or do we desire His desires? And what if His desires are unpleasant to us? What shall we choose? The Lord or our pleasures?
I'm sorry it seems these questions are more for me than for you...
I think on these things....
The Lord Himself submitted Himself to the punishment of sin as it was ordained
by the Father.
You have been submitted to sin and the rulers of it as ordained by the Same. You cannot escape where the Lord has placed you. If you think you're honoring God by not feeding into the tax system to which you are obliged, are you not offering your own sacrifices which are of no value to Him? Rather your concern may really be for your own benefit rather than for His. Are you more concerned about evil than He is? Are you more concerned with where your money shall go, than He is? Do you have the power to direct righteousness and evil? (Whether you pay or don't pay, will you be contributing to righteousness in doing so? How do you know?)
If you trust and rely on Him, all your issues and concerns will be satisfied in Him.
It's not your money or your land (where you dwell)... If they desire you to pay taxes, would you do them evil and refuse? Are you not a citizen with rights?
Do you think those rights are free because your nation loves you? Or because you pay for them in the form of taxes?
If the children of your own household did not obey your commands as a father, how much more is it an insult to not obey the commands of the nation you dwell in? What about not obeying the commands required in the Kingdom of God, where I suppose you desire to dwell in?
What do you hope to gain by not paying taxes? Will they save you from sin? Or destruction? or death?
As you said, if the Lord gives it to you, to do otherwise, that's one thing. If you decide it for yourself though, that's another... what has He said about such matters?
Matthew 6:25
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Do we desire our desires? Or do we desire His desires? And what if His desires are unpleasant to us? What shall we choose? The Lord or our pleasures?
I'm sorry it seems these questions are more for me than for you...
I think on these things....