Discussion of the Trinity

[Emmanuel Okpanachi]

I posted the writing of 'Diabolical Doctrine: The Trinity (God Is Three Persons)' at the
TheologyOnline forums. On that same thread I got into a discussion with someone about the idea of the trinity. I will copy and paste the discussion below, in the following posts.

I'm still engaged in the discussion but I think I ought to stop now; as it seems like I'm beginning to strive with him.

Here's the thread: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/sh ... p?t=108711" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've also posted other writings from ThePathofTruth, onto the TheologyOnline forums:

'God Does Only Good, Not Evil' - http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/sh ... p?t=108841" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'Never-ending Torment' - http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/sh ... p?t=108842" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And other topics:

'Surely you love to debate...' - http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/sh ... p?t=108536" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'Even Satan will be Saved' - http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/sh ... p?t=108646" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TheologyOnline seems to be full of brainy intellectuals who are puffed in knowledge. They have 'Battle Royale' debates and theological discussions with each other. It appears that they try to come to knowledge of the Truth through mere speculative discussion. An example of one such discussion is this: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/sh ... p?t=108058" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

[Emmanuel Okpanachi]

PART 1 of the Discussion

'What horrid confusion, vainglory, and strife have been produced by philosophers posing as Christians, putting God under a microscope in their intellectual laboratories and dissecting Him into three beings...'

In repsonse to this, Cruciform writes:

Here you've merely engaged in a Straw Man Fallacy, since the doctrine of the Trinity is an entirely monotheistic view of God. The designation of your religious affiliation as "Other" is accurate.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform

My reply:

How can they maintain a monotheistic view of God when they divide Him into tri-persons? How can they believe that God is three, and also one? That's quite like saying the world is both flat and round. Which is it, trinitarians... is God three or one? Choose one! Seriously... choose one.

From what I'm aware of their convoluted idealogy, trinitarians believe that the Father is a person, that Jesus Christ is a person and that the Holy Spirit is a person. Thus they make God into a compounded, confounded, confused being. Their doctrine is as confused as the god whom they worship. Their theological, trinitarian god is definitely not the singular, indivisible God Almighty.

Cruciform's reply:

"How can they maintain a monotheistic view of God when they divide Him into tri-persons?"

Because Trinitarianism has to do with the Being (Nature) of God, not his personhood. Trinitarians hold that God is one Being, and so are entirely monotheistic in their theology.

"How can they believe that God is three, and also one?

We believe that God is three Persons in one Being (God). In short, He is three in one thing (Person), and one in another thing (Being).

"That's quite like saying the world is both flat and round."

Your comparison would only apply if Trinitarians held that God is both three in Being, and also one in Being. But that certainly is not what we believe. Rather, God is three in Person, and one in Being. Big difference there.

"Which is it, trinitarians... is God three or one?"

God is three in Person, and one in Being. No contradiction whatsoever. This is the historic Christian view of God, and to rejct it is to reject the true God himself.


Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform

MannyO:

By attempting to explain the trinitarian viewpoint, you make it sound even more illogical, incomprehensible, convoluted, and most of all... ridiculous.

''Because Trinitarianism has to do with the Being (Nature) of God, not his personhood. Trinitarians hold that God is one Being, and so are entirely monotheistic in their theology.''

Being doesn't equate to Nature, so I don't know why you put one in brackets next to the other.

Now, let me ask you: How can personhood be different from being? Being a person and being a Being are both one and the same. When have you known a person who wasn't a being and a being who wasn't a person? If God is one Being - as you claim to believe - then it must be logically concluded that He is one person. And it must also be logically concluded that the Being that He is, is the person that He is.

You say that your god is one Being, and that he is also a person (which you recognise as being different from a Being). So that makes 1 being and 1 person. 2 entities! Then you go on to say that one of those two entities - the person, and not the being - is comprised of three people (father, son, holy spirit). Trinitiarians, behold your monstrous creation! As a product of your devilish and depraved carnal minds you have given birth to a freakish siamese twin (one is a being, the other a person) and out of one of their heads grows three arms (father, son and holy spirit). What a complete deformity your god is!

You worship a mutant; a mutant of your own invention. Are you aware that your god is a frankenstein freak? Your god reminds me of the hindu gods who have numerous heads and multiple limbs. This mutant god of yours is both multiplied and divided in itself. What a strange looking idol your god is! Such an odd god!

"We believe that God is three Persons in one Being (God). In short, He is three in one thing (Person), and one in another thing (Being)."

So that makes him two things, not one...

"This is the historic Christian view of God, and to rejct it is to reject the true God himself."

You simply do not know, or know of, the true God Himself. If you did you would discard your trinitarian viewpoint. If you knew Him you would go against that which is false. Your belief in, and adherence to falsity only shows that you do not know the one true God

Cruciform:

"By attempting to explain the trinitarian viewpoint, you make it sound even more illogical, incomprehensible, convoluted, and most of all... ridiculous."

Expressed as a logical syllogism, your response amounts to this:

I don't get it!
Therefore, it cannot be true!

In any case, whether or not you comprehend it, the doctrine of the Trinity is in fact the historically Christian view of God. Your reply here merely engages in a Non Sequitur Fallacy.

"Being doesn't equate to Nature..."

In the language of theology, it does. "Being," "Essence," "Substance," and "Nature" are all used more or less interchangeably by theologians.

"Now, let me ask you: How can personhood be different from being?"

Being involves WHAT something is, while Person involves WHO something is. The two are categorically distinct. For a detailed treatment of these issues, I highly recommend this excellent text: Bowman & Komoszewski, PUTTING JESUS IN HIS PLACE: The Case for the Deity of Christ (Kregel, 2007)

"Being a person and being a Being are both one and the same."

For human beings, yes. We are one person and one being (one WHO and one WHAT). But God is not a man---he is three WHOs and one WHAT (i.e., three Persons and one God). This is as simple as I can make it for you.

For the biblical position on the Trinity, see this: http://www.equip.org/PDF/DT160.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The remainder of your post has already been answered.


Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform

[Emmanuel Okpanachi]

PART 2 of the Discussion:

MannyO:

Originally Posted by Cruciform:

"Expressed as a logical syllogism, your response amounts to this:

I don't get it!
Therefore, it cannot be true!

In any case, whether or not you comprehend it, the doctrine of the Trinity is in fact the historically Christian view of God. Your reply here merely engages in a Non Sequitur Fallacy."

It's not that I don't get it. It's that it's utter and complete nonsense - to tell you the truth. Your trinitarian ancestors conceived such nonsense as a result of their warped, carnal minds. They attempted to figure out God through their own reasoning; and in doing so they formulated a warped view of God. Rather than believing what the bible plainly states, they decided to conceive their own baseless conceptions. You're on the same wrong path that they were on, by believing what they believed. Only God can save you from such falsity. Only He can enlighten and unblind you. In due time He will do that, Cruciform.

"In the language of theology, it does. "Being," "Essence," "Substance," and "Nature" are all used more or less interchangeably by theologians."

What do I care for theology and the language thereof? Truth is what should be desired, not speculative reasoning - which is what theology is.

"Being involves WHAT something is, while Person involves WHO something is. The two are categorically distinct."

Suppose these questions were asked of God: 'What are you?' and 'Who are you?'. He could give the same answer to both questions. Simply, 'I am God'. What He is is Who He is.

If someone asked me, 'What are you?' I needn't have to tell them I'm a being. I can just as easily tell them I'm a person, and that would be sufficient. For their comprehension and understanding as to what I am, telling them that I'm a person would be just as satisfactory as telling them I'm a being. Now if someone asked me 'Who are you?', I could reply with a more specific answer: 'I'm a man'. And that too would be a sufficient answer, because that is who (and what) I am.

There is no distinct difference between 'who' and 'what', as you say. For what someone is, is who they are, and who they are is what they are.

"For human beings, yes. We are one person and one being (one WHO and one WHAT). But God is not a man---he is three WHOs and one WHAT (i.e., three Persons and one God). This is as simple as I can make it for you."

The bible says that humans were made in His image (Genesis 1:27). Do you not understand, therefore, that if God were 'three WHOs' we also would be 'three WHOs'? But that is not the reality. The reality is that we are one 'who' just as He is one person - one being. If one were to go by what the bible states and your reasoning, I would have to be two entities - a person and a being - not one. Then - still going by the bible and your reasoning - there would have be three of one of me. Cruciform, can you not see how nonsensical your theology is ?

You are blind, and if you desire to grasp as tightly as you can onto what is false , rather than be open to truth, then what else can be said to you? I've told you the truth but if you are insistent on staying in darkness...well, I can't force you to come into the Light. Only God can guide you into Himself.

Cruciform:

" Originally Posted by MannyO:

It's not that I don't get it.It's that it's utter and complete nonsense - to tell you the truth.Your trinitarian ancestors conceived such nonsense as a result of their warped, carnal minds.They attempted to figure out God through their own reasoning; and in doing so they formulated a warped view of God.Rather than believing what the bible plainly states, they decided to conceive their own baseless conceptions.You're on the same wrong path that they were on, by believing what they believed.Only God can save you from such falsity.Only He can enlighten and unblind you.In due time He will do that, Cruciform.What do I care for theology and the language thereof?Truth is what should be desired, not speculative reasoning - which is what theology is.Suppose these questions were asked of God: 'What are you?' and 'Who are you?'.He could give the same answer to both questions.Simply, 'I am God'.What He is is Who He is.If someone asked me, 'What are you?'I needn't have to tell them I'm a being.I can just as easily tell them I'm a person, and that would be sufficient.For their comprehension and understanding as to what I am, telling them that I'm a person would be just as satisfactory as telling them I'm a being.Now if someone asked me 'Who are you?', I could reply with a more specific answer: 'I'm a man'.And that too would be a sufficient answer, because that is who (and what) I am.There is no distinct difference between 'who' and 'what', as you say.For what someone is, is who they are, and who they are is what they are.The bible says that humans were made in His image (Genesis 1:27).Do you not understand, therefore, that if God were 'three WHOs' we also would be 'three WHOs'?But that is not the reality.The reality is that we are one 'who' just as He is one person - one being.If one were to go by what the bible states and your reasoning, I would have to be two entities - a person and a being - not one.Then - still going by the bible and your reasoning - there would have be three of one of me.Cruciform, can you not see how nonsensical your theology is ?You are blind, and if you desire to grasp as tightly as you can onto what is false , rather than be open to truth, then what else can be said to you.I've told you the truth but if you are insistent on staying in darkness...well, I can't force you to come into the Light.Only God can guide you into Himself."


Already answered---and corrected---in Post #37 above.

Mannyo:

"Already answered---and corrected---in Post #37 above."

Actually you didn't answer this question that I put forward to you:

'The bible says that humans were made in His image (Genesis 1:27). Do you not understand, therefore, that if God were 'three WHOs' we also would be 'three WHOs'? '

Cruciform:

"Actually you didn't answer this question that I put forward to you: 'The bible says that humans were made in His image (Genesis 1:27). Do you not understand, therefore, that if God were 'three WHOs' we also would be 'three WHOs'? ' "

The image of God (imago Dei) in man does not apply to his essential nature---we are not "gods" by nature, nor is God a "man" by Nature. You've simply misapplied the concept of the image of God.

I've already sufficiently answered you and your OP in Post #37 above.

MannyO:

"The image of God (imago Dei) in man does not apply to his essential nature---we are not "gods" by nature, nor is God a "man" by Nature. You've simply misapplied the concept of the image of God.

I've already sufficiently answered you and your OP in Post #37 above."

According to your position - and bearing in mind Genesis 1:27 - what do humans, as His creations, reflect from Him; do we reflect His 'personhood' or his 'Being ?

You say that we are not 'gods', so we can't therefore reflect his Being (which, to you, is his Nature); so the only other option, according to your position, is that we must reflect His personhood, which you, trinitarian, say is three persons. Tell me, then, how do we in any way shape or form reflect three persons?

Also if we don't reflect the Being (Nature) of God, how is it that we are beings?

By the way, if you have some questions of me feel free to ask. Rather than me being the one to bombard you with questions.

Cruciform:

"According to your position - and bearing in mind Genesis 1:27 - what do humans, as His creations, reflect from Him; do we reflect His 'personhood' or his 'Being ?"

Part of the imago Dei involves what each of the Persons of God reflect, namely mind, will, and emotion. Thus, we're able to relate to and fellowship with God, who is himself personal, and not an impersonal force. The image of God does not mean that I am three persons and one human being, which is a constitution unique to God alone. There is no other like him, as the Scriptures teach. Rather, as a mere creature, God has chosen to constitute me as one person and one being. That's just the way things are, the way that God has determined they should be.

"Also if we don't reflect the Being (Nature) of God, how is it that we are beings?"

We are not Divine Beings as God is. There are two types of personal created beings: [1] human beings, and [2] angelic beings. Neither of these created beings are divine by nature, but are finite created beings.


Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform

MannyO:

"Part of the imago Dei involves what each of the Persons of God reflect, namely mind, will, and emotion."

You seem to have dodged the question that I asked you: What is that we reflect from God? Do we reflect His personhood or His being?


"The image of God does not mean that I am three persons and one human being"

You would have to be, according to logic and your doctrine.

"God has chosen to constitute me as one person and one being."

If your three-personal god created you in his image, it doesn't make sense why he chose to make you as one person, instead of three people. If he made you as three wouldn't that reflect much more of himself than creating you as one person?

Cruciform:

"You seem to have dodged the question that I asked you. What is that we reflect from God? Do we reflect His personhood or His being?"

Both, and to this extent:

we possess personhood (mind, will, emotion), and
we possess being (a nature)---though our being is finite and dependent, whereas God's Being is infinite and independent.
we are thus one person and one being, while God has revealed himself as three Persons and one Being.

"If your three-personal god created you in his image, it doesn't make sense why he chose to make you as one person, instead of three people."

Sure it does. It makes sense that God created us as social creatures who need interaction with other human beings, since God Himself is a Tri-Personal Being who experiences communion and fellowship within His very Self, that is, between the three Persons of the Divine Godhead.

"If he made you as three wouldn't that reflect much more of himself than creating you as one person?"

Despite what you---a finite, fallible creature---think God should do, the fact is that He has chosen to endow his human creatures with single personhood and single being (nature).

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform

{END}

[Marina Carnat]

The Trinity can be compared with the sun: the very planet of the sun (the generator of the light and heat) is similar to the nature of the Father; the rays sent by the sun to for a good purpose can be compared with the work of the Son; and the very work of these rays that we see and feel (the light of His presence, the warmth of His salvation) is the Holy Spirit.

This comparison has no sense!

[Paul Cohen]

The Trinity can be compared with the sun: the very planet of the sun (the generator of the light and heat) is similar to the nature of the Father; the rays sent by the sun to for a good purpose can be compared with the work of the Son; and the very work of these rays that we see and feel (the light of His presence, the warmth of His salvation) is the Holy Spirit.

Hi Tanya, and welcome to The Path of Truth Forum.

As a human being I have a certain nature and capabilities. I can cook you a meal or send you an email. Nevertheless, I am still just one person, not three or several. The same goes for God. There is only one of Him, not three separate entities having different abilities. There is One God with many abilities, manifesting Himself as He chooses.

Marina, you need to give substance to any criticism you make of another's presentation, even though the matter may seem self-evident to you. What about that other person? How are you helping Tanya here?

[Marina Carnat]

Marina, you need to give substance to any criticism you make of another's presentation, even though the matter may seem self-evident to you. What about that other person? How are you helping Tanya here?

You are right, Paul! Sorry, Tanya, I didn't mean to be rude.
I just didn't see the relevant connection between sun and "holy trinity" as Tanya explained and put my two penny in (or "self-evident phrase").

[Edwin Romero]

I would say to Tanya:

The sun analogy to illustrate the Trinity is really old; I heard it as a kid, and now I see it's rather a proof against the trinity. The sun, described by three different aspects, is still only one star.

It also applies to the comparison they make of God with us. They say we are tripartite (spirit, soul, and body) because we have God's image, Who is "three in one." That's wrong, too, and a proof against the point they're trying to make. We are still only one individual person each, even if with three parts; we're not three persons.

Then they go to further confusion when trying to explain they mean God is 3 Persons but only 1 Being. That is really amazing! Human reason can be very illogical and contradictory.

I remember reading a book by Benny Hinn, where he says God is actually 9 persons, as each Person of the Trinity has a tripartite nature.

It is way better to simply humble ourselves before the One God of all Creation and follow Him as He leads. If He is not leading us, there's no point in trying to understand anything about Him, or ourselves, for that matter.

[Victor Hafichuk]

Hi Tanya!

I decide to wash my car. I hook up the garden house and spray the car with streams of water. The car gets washed clean and shiny. How many of me are there now?

[Victor Hafichuk]

Tanya,

You err in your conclusions of what I was saying and you err in your thinking and what you're saying.

You say, "But let me dare to say that the Bible says 'Our God is the sun and the shield'. He is also presented as 'the Sun of the Truth'. If God Himself chose this planet to be compared with, then we must learn the nature of this planet, its work and functions!"

I answer: The Bible was also using metaphors that only go so far. Also, I'm not sure where in the Bible it speaks of "the Sun of the Truth." You must have a different translation from any of the many we have on hand.

Metaphors and allegories go only so far; they aren't to be taken in every detail and application. You compared the sun to the Father, its rays to the Son and the effects of the rays to the Holy Spirit, trying to make the point there are three identities involved, thus proving three persons in the Godhead, yet there are no three suns.

I gave you another illustration similar to yours of your thinking in principle, I being one person, as the sun is one heavenly body; I extending water as does the sun its rays; and that the water extended affected something else, as the sun's rays affect us and the earth. In the logic of the illustrations, there's no indication there are three objects/persons, suns or Victors. Only one sun and one Victor.

If my illustration falls too short for your reasoning, so be it. Setting my metaphor aside, your reasoning is, frankly, illogical and quite silly. The question is: Why would you make such foolish arguments in God's Name? Do you not realize you blaspheme Him? Apparently not. You have become confounded in mind as the god you worship.

Falsehood begets darkness, Tanya. You need to cut being religious and get real.

[Victor Hafichuk]

Tanya, I have more to say on this. I used the words, "metaphor" and "allegory" for our illustrations, but I think the word I was searching for was "analogy."

In a certain respect, your chosen analogy is a bit better in one respect, in that the sun's rays are the essence of the sun, even as the Son of God is the Essence of the Father, whereas the water from the hose is not my essence, though I serve as a source or initiator. Furthermore, the water I supply only washes, but does not change the nature of the car, as the sun's rays effect real change in the earth and as the Son of God changes our natures, even redeeming us from death and corruption.

But that isn't the point of our discussion, is it? The point of your analogy was trying to describe three persons in one. Your analogy does not prove three persons or entities; indeed, if your analogy is fair and accurate, it disproves the foolish and blasphemous trinity concept of God. So for you to use it as proof is contradictory.

As to what I said to you personally, it stands. You need to repent of your artificial spirituality, cease being religious, humble yourself, stop trying to impress with opinion and information and begin to learn from the Lord through whatever ways, means and persons He provides you with.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction" (Proverbs 1:7). Been there, done it both ways.

I don't wish to offend you, but I expect I do.

[Marina Carnat]

Amen, Victor!

I would also add: How would an ant explain what would might be an elephant? Even if the ant climbs on the elephant, it wouldn't understand. God is immeasurable and we try to explain Him. Trinity is only one point of view, not God's definition.

Luke 10:22: “No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Also, Jesus and Holy Spirit belong to the Father; it is something that came out of the Father. The words I write are out of me, they belong to me, they are an inseparable part of me, not a different entitity. (John 10:30, Romans 3:30)

Tanya, you believe Jesus is the savior, but "I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:11) If Father says He is the Savior, how can there be another person who would be the savior?

[Marina Carnat]

Also, regarding the comparison with the sun: can the rays or the effect of the rays be independent of the sun? Can they exist without the sun, as two more persons/entities?

[Piet Barnard]

You know I want to take all back to Jesus words when he said - You should believe like children. I am one and also 3 just like God as I was created in his Image. I am body (Jesus), Soul (God) and Spirit (Holy spirit). When Jesus was asked by the Pharisees under who's command are you doing these things his answer was as follow: I did nothing that the Father did not tell me to do (GOD the great I am - the soul the knowledge - the brain) and did nothing without the power of the Holy Spirit (The same spirit who was drifting over the earth before creation. The power who created when God spoke. And then the body (Christ who became flesh - body) and he could suffer and bleed for our transgressions.
We explain it to the young ones as follow in the church - And please this is a parable just like Jesus used to do explanations. A egg has 3 parts The yellow part is God from whom all life comes forth. The white is the power for the development of the chic (Holy spirit) and the shell is Jesus - the body we see. The one who lives in all Christians and as He said we became part of Him. I see no blasphemy or anything strange in my Christian believes in trinity at all.

[Paul Cohen]

Piet, you defend the trinity by the following analogy:

“I am body (Jesus), Soul (God) and Spirit (Holy spirit).”

And with this one:

“A egg has 3 parts The yellow part is God from whom all life comes forth. The white is the power for the development of the chic (Holy spirit) and the shell is Jesus – the body we see.”

The problem with these analogies is that you divide God into parts that are less than the whole, calling each part, “God.” But a shell without the contents isn’t an egg and a body without a soul or spirit isn’t a person. Jesus Christ, however, is very God, Who raised Himself from the dead and is called the Creator of all.

You are confounded, therefore, in saying the Spirit is the Creator as if Christ isn't. You say that the Lord “did nothing without the power of the Holy Spirit (The same spirit who was drifting over the earth before creation. The power who created when God spoke.”

But the Scriptures say all things were created through Christ:

“For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist” (Colossians 1:16-17 MKJV).

We’re not saying the Holy Spirit didn’t create all things, because He did. He is Jesus, Who is God.

“Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the church of the Lord, and of God, which He purchased with His Own blood” (Acts 20:28 EMTV).

Read all our writings on the trinity – we answer yours and many other objections there.

The Trinity

[Victor Hafichuk]

Piet, how many persons are you? You are the man who goes to the grocery store buying a dozen eggs and expects to find 4 in the carton. More accurately, you are the one who sells a dozen eggs and your customer only gets 4.

[Piet Barnard]

I do apologize if I said some things in a funny way, but English is not my mother Tongue.
Sarcasm should not form part of your answers - However I think we should agree to disagree - And I think we are not glorifying Christ by being Nasty. The problem that I have, should He not be one and three at the same time is for example:

1) We should then remove John 16 and 17 from the Bible as only a mad man would pray and beg to his Father for His Disciples if he is the Father himself.
2) Jesus then lied to His disciples when He said in John 16 - It will be better for you that I go to the Father so that I can send the One (Holy Spirit) to Convince you of sin and to be with you. (Sending myself?) Why leave then in the first place and He also said I'm going to be with the Father - Be with Myself - Don't make sense to me. He will also sit and take up His place on the right hand of the Father - Why ? They are then one Persona?
Jesus also Stated that he will be our advocate? Jesus also stated that He will plead with the Father for us. Was he lying? Or was he with all respect a Schizophrenic with multiple personalities?
God said I am and with that He said: your human Ideas and perspectives will never be big enough to contemplate who I am. We only know a small bit now Jesus said, we will only understand when we are with Him in heaven.

He said he was send by the Father - How can He send himself? Yes He was with the Father and created with the Father. The Father spoke - Jesus created with the Power of the Holy spirit (John 1). They Are 3 But they are one and in John 17 Jesus ask the Father that we who became believers also becomes part of them and become ONE with them. If you deny the Trinity of God you have no Saviour and or Holy spirit. In John 16 He also said (I think verse 26) When He comes the One that will be with you (The Holy Spirit) He will tell and witness with you (us) about Me (Jesus). Why did Jesus say that if they are one? Sir your theology just makes no sense. You will have to re write just about the whole New Testament as well as parts of the Old Testament to deny the Trinity of God.

And lastly you will have no house to live in as Jesus said in my Fathers house there are many dwellings and I'm going to heaven to prepare some more - Why don't the Holy Father prepare the dwellings?

Jesus said we will be judged by what we know - I will leave you with my last thought about your site. By accident I got to your site - I don't know from which denomination you are but the more I read the more I saw:

1) A feeling of self righteousness and Judgemental with people that ask questions (Only one Judge for me - thank you)
2) Half truths that you can only substantiate with your own Interpretation of the Word.
3) I saw that you Judge just about all Churches on your site - Jesus said will I find my Church as I left it when I come back? Not if its up to your own Interpretations. Jesus said I have many sheep when the disciples did not 100% agree with other Christians.
And if you belongs to no church - beware Jesus warned us not to neglect the get together with other Christians and this reminded me about the following story:

A member of a certain church, who previously had been attending services regularly, stopped going. After a few weeks, the pastor decided to visit him. It was a chilly evening. The pastor found the man at home alone, sitting before a blazing fire. Guessing the reason for his pastor’s visit, the man welcomed him, led him to a big chair near the fireplace and waited.

The pastor made himself comfortable but said nothing. In the grave silence, he contemplated the play of the flames around the burning logs. After some minutes, the pastor took the fire tongs, carefully picked up a brightly burning ember and placed it to one side of the hearth all alone. Then he sat back in his chair, still silent.

The host watched all this in quiet fascination. As the one lone ember’s flame diminished, there was a momentary glow and then its fire was no more. Soon it was cold and “dead as a doornail.” Not a word had been spoken since the initial greeting. Just before the pastor was ready to leave, he picked up the cold, dead ember and placed it back in the middle of the fire. Immediately it began to glow once more with the light and warmth of the burning coals around it.

As the pastor reached the door to leave, his host said, “Thank you so much for your visit and especially for the fiery sermon. I shall be back in church next Sunday.”

A very good friend of Mine and a Pastor once said "Jesus was either a bat right out off Hell send to deceit the believers or He was 100% who He said He was, It is for you guys to make a decision of who He was" Me and my house prefer to believe every word he said - He is our Lord and saviour.

Amen

[Edwin Romero]

Hello Piet, I have some things to say about the arguments you present here. To start with, English is not my mother tongue either, but I see you express your ideas clearly enough to be understood, and most importantly, your spirit is clearly expressed here.

I don’t see Victor or Paul are being nasty when trying to clarify matters you brought up concerning the trinity. They are just exposing another way of putting your own analogies in a different context. All of your questions and questionings have been answered in the writings about the trinity at TPOT, but allow me to say some more here so you may consider:

1) In John 16 and 17, Jesus is not acting as a mad man if He is the Father. In fact, He is demonstrating that the Father has indeed become man, to the point He needs to depend on the Father [like we all should] while being in the form of man, needing to look to Him and pray to Him. He is God Almighty, Omnipresent; He can be in Heaven and in earth, and all over the universe at the same time in the form He chooses. Actually the universe is in Him, as He gives it existence.

2) Jesus didn’t lie to His disciples when declaring He would go to the Father in order to send the Holy Spirit. He is telling them that in His form of man He is straitened to a body, and He needed to take back His unlimited form as the Father in order to dwell in His disciples by the Spirit.

You ask, “(Sending myself?) Why leave then in the first place and He also said I'm going to be with the Father”

Look at these Scriptures:

“For so says the Lord God: Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out” (Ezequiel 34:11 MKJV)

Who came to search for the Lord’s sheep?

“You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, I am the Lord; and there is none to save besides Me.” (Isaiah 43:11-12 MKJV)

Who is the Lord’s Servant? Is it not Himself? Who came to save us?

It is the same analogy when we say Jesus is our advocate. His man form (totally obedient to the Father) with His work of dying and resurrecting by His own power is the only Mediator between man and God. That’s why the Father insists we should listen to the Son, Whose voice His sheep recognize. He’s not schizophrenic when saying that.

You state, “God said I am and with that He said: your human Ideas and perspectives will never be big enough to contemplate who I am. We only know a small bit now Jesus said, we will only understand when we are with Him in heaven.”

Would you agree then you are using your human ideas and perspectives to understand Who He is? By the way, where did He say we would only understand when we are with Him in heaven? Do you admit then that you don’t understand now, yet are trying to explain?

I have already given you Scripture where the Father said He would send Himself, except in the form of His servant, totally submitted to the Father. Is that impossible for an Omnipotent God? Perhaps you grant Him less power than He actually has.

“If you deny the Trinity of God you have no Saviour and or Holy spirit.”

How do you read this Scripture: “But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven.”? Do you read "deny ME," or "deny the trinity"?

You ask, “- Why don't the Holy Father prepare the dwellings?” Look at this Scripture:

“You have heard how I said to you, I go away and I am coming to you again. If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I go to the Father, for My Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28 MKJV)

Jesus is saying precisely that His form as the Father (unlimited Spirit) is greater than His form/manifestation as a Son (the Father in a limited body). So, it is obvious He will prepare such dwelling places in His form as the Father; it’s why He said the disciples should rejoice He was going back to the Father.

In that same Scripture, Jesus also says, “I am coming to you again.” Didn’t that happen at Pentecost? Who came? It was Jesus, Lord of Lords and King of kings, as the Holy Spirit, finally dwelling within men. See what Peter says,

“You also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 2:5 MKJV)

Who is building up this spiritual house? Is it the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit?

Consider this question: If there are 3 individual persons, would it not be necessary for each person to have one Spirit each? Then we would have the spirit of the Father, the spirit of the Son, and the spirit of the Holy Spirit. Or do you think when the Holy Spirit came to earth, Jesus and the Father were left empty, “spiritless”? This is not sarcasm, but simple logic derived from Trinitarians' logic.

You find this somewhere: “Jesus said will I find my Church as I left it when I come back? Not if its up to your own Interpretations”

I find this in the Scriptures: “I say to you that He will avenge them speedily. Yet when the Son of Man comes, shall He find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8 MKJV)

The Lord was actually implying the opposite of what you read there. He’s saying faith will not be abundant when He comes back, and I tell you, He has come back!

As for the story you tell at the end, you would agree it’s not a real story but an illustration, with true principles, but subjected to context application. I’ve heard it since I was a kid here in Honduras, and you don’t say it happened in Honduras, do you?

Soon after my wife and I left our former church, a lady had a dream about us, and she told the pastor about it. In her dream she saw two charcoal pieces burning in a bonfire. Then those two pieces were taken out, and in a short time they were quenched, in isolation, and burning no more.

The pastor warned my mother the dream was about me and my wife and that’s what would happen with us if we didn’t go back to church. That was over 5 years ago, and I can tell you, by the grace of God, the fire we had certainly was put out; it was a strange fire, a hellish one. And here we are now, in the middle of trials, struggles with unbelief, and even some failures, but more alive than we ever were in church for years, experiencing His purifying fires for the first time.

What about Victor and Paul, who have been out of any church systems for over 4 decades now? Are they cold or dead? They have blessed our lives and many others like only the Lord could do it through His Body, His Church, which is fully alive, glorifying His Name, although despised by men, especially by church-goers.

How I would love for you to receive the Lord’s grace to have your eyes opened, Piet, and to learn His ways and be blessed. But that is up to Him, isn’t it? "Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts" (Hebrews 4:7).

[Beryl Knipe]

Hi Edwin

Thank you for this explanation. I truly appreciated reading what you said to Piet. As you say, it's up to our Lord - whom He chooses.

Beryl.

[Paul Cohen]

Yes, Beryl, that's a very helpful explanation from Edwin. I have something to add to an important point he made:

"'For so says the Lord God: Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out' (Ezequiel 34:11 MKJV)

Who came to search for the Lord’s sheep?"

Jesus said:

“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:10 MKJV).

Doesn't this say it all? Jesus Christ is God, the One and Only!

Paul