Hi, my name is Justin. I came across your site randomly and wanted to talk to you about the doctrine of the trinity.
Just to make you aware before hand, I have never truly believed in the trinity so I am not here to defend it. Only to have a conversation with you about it.
Basically, my view is this... I believe that God the Father is a being who does not have a physical form. He is a being who cannot be seen by us and cannot communicate with us directly. I believe Jesus, or the Word of God is a manifestation of God who does possess a form capable of speech and capable of interacting with our physical universe. Then when it comes to the Holy Spirit, I always thought of it as a manifestation of God's power which was meant to dwell within us and be able to interact with us but in a different way than Jesus... I believe that it is a manifestation of God's power or Spirit which connects us to God kind of like being plugged in to Him. But I never really considered the Holy Spirit to be equal to God the Father or Jesus based on what I read in the Bible, it is more of a helper than anything.
I don't know, I guess my point is. For someone like me (who doesn't really believe in the trinity) to be easily able to understand and explain the trinity... Why is it so hard for everyone else to understand how God can be both the Father and the Son? (honestly i think I could make the trinity very easily understood if i took more time to word this better and looked up scriptures but I don't think that the trinity is accurate as I have previously said) Surely God the Father couldn't have come and lived a life on earth and interacted with us in a way we fleshly beings would understand, He couldn't die for our sin or show us how to live.
Follow up email:
To clarify :
1. Why the trinity is supposedly so difficult to grasp as a concept, I mean it's simple compared to trying to grasp quantum mechanics and more than 5 dimensions.
2. Why is it considered such a vital component to so many religious denominations when they can't even grasp it?
3. My main contention with the concept of the trinity is that I don't see enough Biblical evidence to consider it equal to God and Jesus, but that's really my only contention with it. As I said, I think a case could be made for the trinity because passages in the Bible do say call it a "he" and "he" will help you and that you can grieve the "Holy Spirit"
Why is the trinity vital to religious denominations when they can't even explain it?
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Paul Cohen
Why is the trinity vital to religious denominations when they can't even explain it?
Hi Justin,
You say the Holy Spirit is somehow lesser than God the Father and Jesus. But that's not what the Scriptures say, to which one should always defer rather than to one's own opinion.
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His Own blood” (Acts 20:28 ESV).
Did you know the Holy Spirit has blood? There's no space or difference between the Spirit of God and Christ.
And there's no space or difference between the Spirit of God and the Father:
“Therefore he who despises does not despise man, but God, Who also has given us His Holy Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 4:8 MKJV).
There's no such thing as the Trinity, three “God” beings in one. It's not complicated, Justin. So, regarding your questions:
“1. Why the trinity is supposedly so difficult to grasp as a concept, I mean it's simple compared to trying to grasp quantum mechanics and more than 5 dimensions.”
Quantum mechanics represents real phenomenon, but the Trinity represents something that doesn't exist in nature and is inherently and irreconcilably contradictory. An individual is one person, not three, and three persons are not an individual. The very word, “individual,” comes from a Latin word meaning “not divisible.”
“2. Why is it considered such a vital component to so many religious denominations when they can't even grasp it?”
Very good question! The answer is simple: Because religious denominations aren't there to serve the True God, but serve themselves by worshipping false gods in His Name, and therefore hold to them rather than repent and walk in the Truth.
Men have been worshipping what they don't know since the beginning.
“You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22 MKJV).
Acts 17:23-32 MKJV
(23) For as I passed by and saw the things you worship, I also found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Not knowing then whom you worship, I make Him known to you.
(24) The God Who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands,
(25) nor is served with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives life and breath and all things to all.
(26) And He has made all nations of men of one blood to dwell on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling,
(27) to seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after Him and find Him, though indeed He is not far from each one of us.
(28) For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also certain of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
(29) Then being offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like gold or silver or stone, engraved by art and man's imagination.
In other words, He's not an incomprehensible “trinity” of beings. He's like us, because He made us in His image. I am not three persons, only one, though I occupy different positions.
Addressing another explanation presented by trinitarians, I have a body, soul and spirit, but it doesn't make me three persons.
Here's incontrovertible evidence of the fact that the Trinity represents strange gods: Those who worship it viciously attack those who confess and profess the One True God, as with The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin.
“3. My main contention with the concept of the trinity is that I don't see enough Biblical evidence to consider it equal to God and Jesus, but that's really my only contention with it. As I said, I think a case could be made for the trinity because passages in the Bible do say call it a 'he' and 'he' will help you and that you can grieve the 'Holy Spirit'
If you're truly interested in helping yourself here, you need to read over our writings again and more carefully. Your objection is thoroughly answered in the The Trinity and Jesus Christ Is God sections.
Finally, you write:
“Surely God the Father couldn't have come and lived a life on earth and interacted with us in a way we fleshly beings would understand, He couldn't die for our sin or show us how to live.”
Au contraire, Justin, that's exactly what He did.
“For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6 MKJV).
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory” (1 Timothy 3:16 MKJV).
Paul Cohen
www.ThePathofTruth.com
You say the Holy Spirit is somehow lesser than God the Father and Jesus. But that's not what the Scriptures say, to which one should always defer rather than to one's own opinion.
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which He obtained with His Own blood” (Acts 20:28 ESV).
Did you know the Holy Spirit has blood? There's no space or difference between the Spirit of God and Christ.
And there's no space or difference between the Spirit of God and the Father:
“Therefore he who despises does not despise man, but God, Who also has given us His Holy Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 4:8 MKJV).
There's no such thing as the Trinity, three “God” beings in one. It's not complicated, Justin. So, regarding your questions:
“1. Why the trinity is supposedly so difficult to grasp as a concept, I mean it's simple compared to trying to grasp quantum mechanics and more than 5 dimensions.”
Quantum mechanics represents real phenomenon, but the Trinity represents something that doesn't exist in nature and is inherently and irreconcilably contradictory. An individual is one person, not three, and three persons are not an individual. The very word, “individual,” comes from a Latin word meaning “not divisible.”
“2. Why is it considered such a vital component to so many religious denominations when they can't even grasp it?”
Very good question! The answer is simple: Because religious denominations aren't there to serve the True God, but serve themselves by worshipping false gods in His Name, and therefore hold to them rather than repent and walk in the Truth.
Men have been worshipping what they don't know since the beginning.
“You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22 MKJV).
Acts 17:23-32 MKJV
(23) For as I passed by and saw the things you worship, I also found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Not knowing then whom you worship, I make Him known to you.
(24) The God Who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands,
(25) nor is served with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives life and breath and all things to all.
(26) And He has made all nations of men of one blood to dwell on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling,
(27) to seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after Him and find Him, though indeed He is not far from each one of us.
(28) For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also certain of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
(29) Then being offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like gold or silver or stone, engraved by art and man's imagination.
In other words, He's not an incomprehensible “trinity” of beings. He's like us, because He made us in His image. I am not three persons, only one, though I occupy different positions.
Addressing another explanation presented by trinitarians, I have a body, soul and spirit, but it doesn't make me three persons.
Here's incontrovertible evidence of the fact that the Trinity represents strange gods: Those who worship it viciously attack those who confess and profess the One True God, as with The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin.
“3. My main contention with the concept of the trinity is that I don't see enough Biblical evidence to consider it equal to God and Jesus, but that's really my only contention with it. As I said, I think a case could be made for the trinity because passages in the Bible do say call it a 'he' and 'he' will help you and that you can grieve the 'Holy Spirit'
If you're truly interested in helping yourself here, you need to read over our writings again and more carefully. Your objection is thoroughly answered in the The Trinity and Jesus Christ Is God sections.
Finally, you write:
“Surely God the Father couldn't have come and lived a life on earth and interacted with us in a way we fleshly beings would understand, He couldn't die for our sin or show us how to live.”
Au contraire, Justin, that's exactly what He did.
“For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6 MKJV).
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory” (1 Timothy 3:16 MKJV).
Paul Cohen
www.ThePathofTruth.com