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Hi Victor,
I have been reading through your material and although I agree with you on allot, there are some scriptures which you could maybe qualify your beliefs for me against.
I have always understood the “Godhead” (God the Father and Jesus Christ) as two distinct beings, with the Holy Spirit being the very power of the “Godhead” through which they interact and express their will. And where the expression “as one” is used I have always understood it as “one in” belief/commitment/desire/power etc.You could use the example of a Family name-We the Pieterse`s are one family but with different individuals.We could express our views and commitment as being one.
The following scriptures to me qualify this belief-
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
(David understood that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament)
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(Also the apostles understood this)
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Jesus Christ is the Word)
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(God said let us make man in OUR image.)Plural.
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Why would satan think that God the Father would bow down and worship him?
Everything belongs to God but satan is the god of this world and Christ had to dethrone him,he thought that he could tempt Christ as he was subject to the flesh.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Also if the Feast of Tabernacles is done away with today why will it be kept in the millennium and all those who do not keep it will be cursed.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Francois
I have always understood the “Godhead” (God the Father and Jesus Christ) as two distinct beings
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: I have always understood the “Godhead” (God the Father and Jesus Christ) as two distinct beings
Hi Francois,
There are several passages in Scripture referring to the Holy Spirit as a Person and not only as a “power” - some examples:
“But whenever they lead you away and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what you should speak or think. But speak whatever shall be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speaks, but the Holy Spirit” (Mark 13:11 MKJV).
A power does not speak; only a person does.
“And it happened to him, being instructed by the Holy Spirit, he was not to see death before he would see the Christ of the Lord” (Luke 2:26 MKJV).
A power does not actively instruct; a person or living creature does.
“But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit Whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you” (John 14:26 MKJV).
“For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what you ought to say” (Luke 12:12 MKJV).
A power does not teach, but a person does.
“Men, brothers, this Scripture must have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke before concerning Judas, who became guide to those who seized Jesus” (Acts 1:16 MKJV).
“Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go near and join yourself to this chariot” (Acts 8:29 MKJV).
“As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, So, then, separate Barnabas and Saul to Me for the work to which I have called them” (Acts 13:2 MKJV).
A power does not speak; only a person does.
“And coming through the Phrygian and the Galatian region; and by the Holy Spirit being forbidden to speak the Word in Asia” (Acts 16:6 MKJV).
A power may forbid, but not intentionally or intelligently; only a person can do so.
“Except that the Holy Spirit witnesses in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions await me” (Acts 20:23 MKJV).
A power does not witness; only a person does.
“Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood” (Acts 20:28 MKJV).
Only a person, THE Person, purchases the church of God with His Own blood.
“And as he thought upon these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take to you Mary as your wife. For that in her is fathered of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:20 MKJV).
Only a person can father a human child.
“But they rebelled, and troubled His Holy Spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them” (Isaiah 63:10 MKJV).
One does not trouble a power but a person, and only a person fights against another.
“But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land” (Acts 5:3 MKJV).
One does not lie to a power but to a person.
There are many more verses where those come from.
“You could use the example of a Family name-We the Pieterse`s are one family but with different individuals.We could express our views and commitment as being one.”
I'm amazed at the many examples people concoct to prove God said to Israel, “Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is Two or Three Lords” (Deut. 6:4). And they all fall short of the Truth while trying to prove the Truth. How does that work? Your family example also isn't valid - no examples are because they fail to prove and demonstrate the True Oneness of God.
God isn't a family, so how do you compare? Your family has things each member agrees upon but they also have their differences in many ways, don't they? You need to read our papers more diligently and open your mind. Read Jesus Christ Is God.
“The following scriptures to me qualify this belief-
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
(David understood that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament)
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(Also the apostles understood this)”
By verses you offer above, you prove God is One, not Two, yet claim to defend your belief He is Two. How does that work?
“(God said let us make man in OUR image.)Plural.”
Yes, plural, as in “Heaven” in Hebrew is plural (the Heavens), and water is plural, as in “waters.” No suggestion of two, three or more. Go on to the next verse and you find confirmation not of what YOU say, but of what the Scriptures and we teach in accordance with them:
“And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female” (Genesis 1:27 MKJV).
“Why would satan think that God the Father would bow down and worship him?
Everything belongs to God but satan is the god of this world and Christ had to dethrone him,he thought that he could tempt Christ as he was subject to the flesh.”
Satan can think of a lot of things, whatever he's granted to think. He's a liar, even as the Lord has said. Are you suggesting Satan only thinks things that are true? Is that the integrity liars possess?
Man could not defeat Satan and that's why man needs God to save him from Satan's grip. God did just that when He took on human form.
“Also if the Feast of Tabernacles is done away with today why will it be kept in the millennium and all those who do not keep it will be cursed.”
The Feasts are not done away in their essence, but fulfilled. In Christ, they are accomplished within (1 Corinthians 5:7-8), even as the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel foretold (read The Three Degrees and The Baptism in the Holy Spirit).
Zechariah was speaking of a complete spiritual transformation through all three feasts, representing repentance, baptism in the Spirit and sanctification. He was saying that those who do not experience the Christ within by the Three Feasts are damned, even as all Scripture points out:
“He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him” (John 3:36 MKJV).
Again, Francois, read Jesus Christ Is God - more than once. If you have questions, write again.
Victor
There are several passages in Scripture referring to the Holy Spirit as a Person and not only as a “power” - some examples:
“But whenever they lead you away and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what you should speak or think. But speak whatever shall be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speaks, but the Holy Spirit” (Mark 13:11 MKJV).
A power does not speak; only a person does.
“And it happened to him, being instructed by the Holy Spirit, he was not to see death before he would see the Christ of the Lord” (Luke 2:26 MKJV).
A power does not actively instruct; a person or living creature does.
“But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit Whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you” (John 14:26 MKJV).
“For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what you ought to say” (Luke 12:12 MKJV).
A power does not teach, but a person does.
“Men, brothers, this Scripture must have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke before concerning Judas, who became guide to those who seized Jesus” (Acts 1:16 MKJV).
“Then the Spirit said to Philip, Go near and join yourself to this chariot” (Acts 8:29 MKJV).
“As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, So, then, separate Barnabas and Saul to Me for the work to which I have called them” (Acts 13:2 MKJV).
A power does not speak; only a person does.
“And coming through the Phrygian and the Galatian region; and by the Holy Spirit being forbidden to speak the Word in Asia” (Acts 16:6 MKJV).
A power may forbid, but not intentionally or intelligently; only a person can do so.
“Except that the Holy Spirit witnesses in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions await me” (Acts 20:23 MKJV).
A power does not witness; only a person does.
“Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood” (Acts 20:28 MKJV).
Only a person, THE Person, purchases the church of God with His Own blood.
“And as he thought upon these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take to you Mary as your wife. For that in her is fathered of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 1:20 MKJV).
Only a person can father a human child.
“But they rebelled, and troubled His Holy Spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them” (Isaiah 63:10 MKJV).
One does not trouble a power but a person, and only a person fights against another.
“But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land” (Acts 5:3 MKJV).
One does not lie to a power but to a person.
There are many more verses where those come from.
“You could use the example of a Family name-We the Pieterse`s are one family but with different individuals.We could express our views and commitment as being one.”
I'm amazed at the many examples people concoct to prove God said to Israel, “Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is Two or Three Lords” (Deut. 6:4). And they all fall short of the Truth while trying to prove the Truth. How does that work? Your family example also isn't valid - no examples are because they fail to prove and demonstrate the True Oneness of God.
God isn't a family, so how do you compare? Your family has things each member agrees upon but they also have their differences in many ways, don't they? You need to read our papers more diligently and open your mind. Read Jesus Christ Is God.
“The following scriptures to me qualify this belief-
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
(David understood that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament)
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(Also the apostles understood this)”
By verses you offer above, you prove God is One, not Two, yet claim to defend your belief He is Two. How does that work?
“(God said let us make man in OUR image.)Plural.”
Yes, plural, as in “Heaven” in Hebrew is plural (the Heavens), and water is plural, as in “waters.” No suggestion of two, three or more. Go on to the next verse and you find confirmation not of what YOU say, but of what the Scriptures and we teach in accordance with them:
“And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female” (Genesis 1:27 MKJV).
“Why would satan think that God the Father would bow down and worship him?
Everything belongs to God but satan is the god of this world and Christ had to dethrone him,he thought that he could tempt Christ as he was subject to the flesh.”
Satan can think of a lot of things, whatever he's granted to think. He's a liar, even as the Lord has said. Are you suggesting Satan only thinks things that are true? Is that the integrity liars possess?
Man could not defeat Satan and that's why man needs God to save him from Satan's grip. God did just that when He took on human form.
“Also if the Feast of Tabernacles is done away with today why will it be kept in the millennium and all those who do not keep it will be cursed.”
The Feasts are not done away in their essence, but fulfilled. In Christ, they are accomplished within (1 Corinthians 5:7-8), even as the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel foretold (read The Three Degrees and The Baptism in the Holy Spirit).
Zechariah was speaking of a complete spiritual transformation through all three feasts, representing repentance, baptism in the Spirit and sanctification. He was saying that those who do not experience the Christ within by the Three Feasts are damned, even as all Scripture points out:
“He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him” (John 3:36 MKJV).
Again, Francois, read Jesus Christ Is God - more than once. If you have questions, write again.
Victor