Today, August 21, 2015, Victor received the following letter from Jeff Wilschut:
Hi Victor,
I am writing you today to inform you that I no longer will be attending the path of truth meetings nor will I be coming to visit the farm during the mine shut down.
As you know I have been in and out of a few different churches which had eventually lead me to the path of truth. During my time at the upc church I began to question their teachings about hell and their interpretation of the book of Revelations and believed that I was being taught incorrectly. This was not by any great effort on my part, nor any ability to know this intellectually, through theological reasoning, but just would have to say I was lead to come to that understanding, that God was drawing me away from their teaching. I did not leave in strife, or bitterness towards them, I was still very thankful for what I was given at that time, I was thankful for all the help and support I had received while being apart of the congregation.
I was and I am still undeserving of any kindness, and help from God, but He is the one who guides me just as I am, for no other reason but for His purpose alone. Believing in this basic truth I had no fear, nor doubts that leaving the upc was the right thing to do.
One other thing that stuck me as odd that I recently remembered is the seemingly long silence and void of Gods church for about 2000 years until miraculously a man, women or some people got a revelation from God and His church sprouted from those humble beginnings. There are many such revelations, and as a result many churches that all to this day do suppose they have the truth, while others are lead astray.
The upc was one such church, which troubled me because simply anyone could make such claims, and there followers would just have to believe their revelation/s was/are authentic. It just did not fit with what I had read in scripture, where Jesus Christ came as the corner stone of His Church to take 12 disciples, Peter being one of them who was latter told he was the rock on which He would build his church. From those 12 who went out to preach the gospel setting up His Church which included many Churches, that after their passing away those churches all vanished, and what pursued was this great void.
Again I did not come to this because I was bent on finding any wrong with the churches I had previously attended. As with the reform churches, more specially with the example of Lutheran who did not agree with the direction taken by the roman catholic church, and in his attempt to straighten matters out it caused a rift. However instead of taking things back beyond the roman catholic church to reconnect with His Church originsLutheren set out to creating his own church believing it to be the only way.
With this and many upheavals of empires caused this so called dark ages, yet through all this His Church remained in tacked, just scattered and torn. His Church being an extension of what the apostles taught to today, passed on and kept in its formal traditions, that being the Orthodox Church. It has roots a foundation, which have been shaken, yet efforts have and continue to be made to restore and continue to build upon what was passed on down from when time began.
When I realized that I was being taught wrongly at the upc I did look into the roman catholic church because of their claim to be the original. I can not say that I could prove them wrong by any theological debate, but knew that they were in great error, which caused me to believe that His Church must then be one of these reformed churches or spiritually lead churches. I was not made aware at the time of the Orthodox Church and the history of the teaching passed down from the apostles. At looking into the Church compared to that of the roman catholic church I saw something different, I saw authenticity, a firmness about who they are without arrogance, a humbleness, a conviction to His service, I saw Him in there works based on faith.
I would not go to such a Church out of a feeling that that is were I would like to go, on the contrary, I know that there will be all of me that will need to die in order to belong, which is the reason for the way His Church is practiced, it goes against everything we want, into transform us as His subjects for His purpose and glory. The link I am providing I had come across after I was given understanding that I need to move onward closer to Him, that I got this urgency once again to seek out His original Church. This fellow in the link explains well what I have feebly tried to convey. For me it is one of those blocks that was missing and the need to put away those block that do not fit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qauuydXcuJY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am thankful for what I have been taught, there were necessary teachings that I needed to hear coming from the path of truth, but I am convinced that God is drawing me towards an even deeper, closer relationship with Him that can not be accomplished if I continue with the path of truth. I realized I have no authority to say what is right and wrong, and I have nothing on anyone at the path of truth, by way of talent, intellect, nor is there any reason to say I deserve to have anything from God, in fact I deserve death, but perhaps because I am so hopeless that God continues to draw me in the way He has and does, that despite myself He is there to make my path sure and true.
Jeff W
Going Deeper
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Terri Cabreros
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:52 pm
Re: Going Deeper
He has been weighed and found wanting (Daniel 5:27 - is that the correct verse?).
It reminds me of the conversation the last Sabbath meeting about the separation of the wheat from the tares.
Truly sad for Jeff as he looks to another god because I know this is the ONLY path.
Terri
It reminds me of the conversation the last Sabbath meeting about the separation of the wheat from the tares.
Truly sad for Jeff as he looks to another god because I know this is the ONLY path.
Terri
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Beryl Knipe
Re: Going Deeper
It is difficult to believe that once a person has red, digested and prayed to God about TPOT, Victor, Paul and all who are involved, that one could simply turn away? However, that's not for me or us to even try to comprehend.
I do understand we all have certain gifts received from our Lord - for which I thank Him. I have a strong belief that I have been blessed with the gift of discernment: (Biblical discernment in its simplest definition, discernment is nothing more than the ability to decide between truth and error, right and wrong.)
The man speaking in the video Jeff submitted is called: "Father?" Although I wish and hope that I learn and understand more of God's Word, (in His time) I know that this "father" (although sincere?) has not red or believed, the very clear and powerful Scripture:
Mt. 23:9 "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."
And, from that simple Scripture, alone, God's chosen are able to understand and believe and obey His Words, including...
Acts 7:48 "However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says..."
Acts 17:24 ""The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands."
Isaiah 66:1 "This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?"
2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."
I left the "church systems" in 1995 and have not set foot in a man-made church, since that time. Well, if there was a funeral, I did attend. I have personally, physically been to the following "churches" and "gatherings" - the Catholic Church - Methodist - Presbyterian - Anglican - Jehovah's Witnesses - Mormons - synagogues and quite a few "Interdenominational" churches. However, I still asked the Lord: "Father, I've left all the buildings but I still feel anxious; I feel there's something I'm missing; I'm not a good person, by any means, but Your Truth is "out there" please, Lord, lead me to it."
That is when I remembered a book from my childhood, aptly named, The Path of Truth, which we used to receive monthly in the 60s and 70s and I typed those words, exactly, into Google. And, Wow! I found it!
That is where and how I was led to TPOT. While I'm still a disobedient, undisciplined person, I know with God's help, His guidance and His true servants, He is working with me and definitely keeps me (and my family) away from worldly churches.
Finally, as I don't know Jeff, personally, only by his letter to Victor, I have no words, except to say, may God's Will be done.
Sorry about this long reply but I thought, sharing, would be good.
Blessed and peaceful Sabbath to all.
Beryl.
I do understand we all have certain gifts received from our Lord - for which I thank Him. I have a strong belief that I have been blessed with the gift of discernment: (Biblical discernment in its simplest definition, discernment is nothing more than the ability to decide between truth and error, right and wrong.)
The man speaking in the video Jeff submitted is called: "Father?" Although I wish and hope that I learn and understand more of God's Word, (in His time) I know that this "father" (although sincere?) has not red or believed, the very clear and powerful Scripture:
Mt. 23:9 "And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."
And, from that simple Scripture, alone, God's chosen are able to understand and believe and obey His Words, including...
Acts 7:48 "However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says..."
Acts 17:24 ""The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands."
Isaiah 66:1 "This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?"
2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."
I left the "church systems" in 1995 and have not set foot in a man-made church, since that time. Well, if there was a funeral, I did attend. I have personally, physically been to the following "churches" and "gatherings" - the Catholic Church - Methodist - Presbyterian - Anglican - Jehovah's Witnesses - Mormons - synagogues and quite a few "Interdenominational" churches. However, I still asked the Lord: "Father, I've left all the buildings but I still feel anxious; I feel there's something I'm missing; I'm not a good person, by any means, but Your Truth is "out there" please, Lord, lead me to it."
That is when I remembered a book from my childhood, aptly named, The Path of Truth, which we used to receive monthly in the 60s and 70s and I typed those words, exactly, into Google. And, Wow! I found it!
That is where and how I was led to TPOT. While I'm still a disobedient, undisciplined person, I know with God's help, His guidance and His true servants, He is working with me and definitely keeps me (and my family) away from worldly churches.
Finally, as I don't know Jeff, personally, only by his letter to Victor, I have no words, except to say, may God's Will be done.
Sorry about this long reply but I thought, sharing, would be good.
Blessed and peaceful Sabbath to all.
Beryl.
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Michael Demerling
Re: Going Deeper
Thank you for sharing Beryl,
I found it really interesting how the Lord brought you to TPOT.
It seems to me the Lord is an expert (over all) at connecting the dots for us - leading and guiding us.
Michael
I found it really interesting how the Lord brought you to TPOT.
It seems to me the Lord is an expert (over all) at connecting the dots for us - leading and guiding us.
Michael
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Marilyn Hafichuk
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:08 am
- Location: Lethbridge, Alberta
Re: Going Deeper
Jeff chose religion over Reality. And what a DARK religion he chose!
Why does someone choose religion? Because they have sin they want to hide.
Consider all those who have come and gone at TPOT. You'll see how those who were very religious and chose religious works had sins they would not confess and turn from. They want form and structure so they won't be exposed.
Andy Rooney wrote an interesting editorial in 1987, "Religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Truth is eternal and Andy Rooney's words are as true today as they were yesterday. Read his editorial at this link: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 8444&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Where does unconfessed sin get a person?
Deeper into that horrible darkness and pit of self-destruction.
Why does someone choose religion? Because they have sin they want to hide.
Consider all those who have come and gone at TPOT. You'll see how those who were very religious and chose religious works had sins they would not confess and turn from. They want form and structure so they won't be exposed.
Andy Rooney wrote an interesting editorial in 1987, "Religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Truth is eternal and Andy Rooney's words are as true today as they were yesterday. Read his editorial at this link: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 8444&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Where does unconfessed sin get a person?
Deeper into that horrible darkness and pit of self-destruction.
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: Going Deeper
How’s this, everyone? I say, “Wow! How amazing the power of darkness over the children of darkness!” Walking in the light, these things are obvious, but to those in darkness is nothing obvious. Surely, we can’t take for granted the light we’ve been mercifully granted. “But for the grace of God, there go I!”
There are several things he says in his parting letter that are so wrong and starkly contradictory, yet remarkably, he refuses to see the glaring error. He proudly rambles off false information and consequential nonsensical reasoning about the historical journey on earth of the Lord’s Body of saints and those posing as the Lord’s congregation/body/church.
All the while, with feigned humility, he confesses he has no more going for him than we do and proudly concludes that God is calling him to a walk deeper than ours, so he must go elsewhere because we can’t lead him further.
And where is that elsewhere? It is to the deepest hell of nominal orthodox Christendom, the very seat of Satan on earth - pomposity, black garb, prolific images, forbidden titles, diabolical doctrines, ritual, arrogance, contradiction and all darkness wrapped into one. How amazing is that? But later, I’ll tell you what’s happening and why.
Jeff says he has learned something from us. Has he? Has he never red Diabolical Doctrines, every one of which the Orthodox Church supports? For one glaring example, did Jesus dress in black or have any of His disciples do so - see Jeff’s justification link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qauuydXcuJY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)? Has he not red The True Marks of a Cult? What has he learned? Obviously, he has believed nothing we teach, nothing at all.
In 1976, I had a prophecy for a Dave Grier, a young Christian seeking to please men and to be pleased of them. I had tried to teach and to reason with him according to what the Lord had given me to that point, but to no avail.
In the prophecy, the Lord repeatedly declared He was delivering Dave over to the destroyer for the destruction of the flesh and there he would learn that the Lord was Lord. Dave immediately left us and headed to Saskatoon to join a famed “Spirit-filled” church of about 1000 fairly new and young excited attendees, Mount Zion Christian Center, led by Bill Kellers and Dave Roberts, single men in their thirties or so.
I wondered, and yes, for a time, doubted my prophecy when that happened. Marilyn and I were suddenly very alone. Were we rejected or bypassed by the Lord? Was I deluded? We had heard this new congregation Dave joined of 1000 mostly young people was very much alive in the Lord. Except that about a year after that prophecy to Dave, the Lord told us the pastors of that church were beasts, and Marilyn had a dream in 1975, over a year before the prophecy to Grier, of Bill Kellers tormenting her by hovering hot hands over her back, burning though not touching her as she was laying down.
Fourteen years later in 1990, when the Lord led us to revisit all the people we had left in the past, we visited Dave Grier, among others, and learned that their beloved, admired hero co-pastors, Kellers and Roberts, were discovered to be homosexuals. The shocked, disillusioned members were suddenly scattered to the four winds.
After the break-up of their “Spirit-filled” congregation, Dave Grier married one of the members who was previously Orthodox. He and his wife joined the Orthodox Church and Dave went on to hold a position as some sort of deacon or elder. This is that same church Jeff Wilschut has decided to join.
How had the congregants of Mount Zion Christian Center been deceived, and why? Sin is the answer...they were lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. They had greatly enjoyed their church and its pastors, Dave and Bill, who were handsome, charismatic, clever and free-wheeling.... I recall how shortly after Dave Grier left us and returned with a friend for a quick visit, he thought of us as legalistic and overly sober. I have to confess we were finding our way at that time and were rather ignorant.
Until that visit with Dave and his wife in 1990, Marilyn and I hadn’t heard about the sexual stance of Dave Roberts and Bill Kellers. Then we understood the Word of the Lord to us concerning them in 1977.
Now to why Jeff has parted ways with us. He wasn’t honest about his past and his offensive sins. By the Lord, I called him a liar, for I knew he was. Because company was coming to Harvest Haven and he suspected he would be required to get honest and confess all, he decided not to join us for the occasion, or thereafter, obviously, hence the letter you read here.
In Jeff’s great pride and unbelief, he found a face-saving, conscience-salving way out. He deemed it better to join the worldly impressive forces of darkness, the agents of self-righteousness and self-preservation, than to come clean with God and man. He reasoned that if his sins were made known, he would be “blackballed,” not accepted by the world or able to find and keep a job. He couldn’t believe God is the Provider, the Ruler over the hearts of all men, the One Lord of lords to be trusted. He chose not to believe that God truly required him to come into the open, even as Christ died publicly for us.
In his pride, Jeff believed a lie instead and forsook the Way, the Truth and the Life. I tell you, this is a great tragedy and it will not go well for Jeff. What makes his choice even more contemptible is his hypocrisy, dishonesty heaped on dishonesty, his pretense of being called to and pursuing a “deeper, closer relationship with Him [God].”
I could address so many things he has declared in his letter and the video he refers to, but I don’t have the heart to do so. He has been handed over to the destroyer for the destruction of the flesh as was Dave Grier, and as the apostle Paul did with others according to the Scriptures.
We tried, we reasoned, we reached out. For a time when Jeff believed us, his mind evidently began to clear, but then he drew back and became confounded again, more than ever. Our hands are clean of his blood.
Given this situation, here are some remarkable past quotes from Jeff since he first came to TPOT:
“This will not make me a bed of roses, I am aware of the persecution I will face. I know there will be impossible challenges more then I can bare. I know I will be so hated, but none of that will save me. I fear Him who can put to death both body and soul, I will trust in God and serve Him and Him alone.”
“I am contacting you because I do not want to die a sinner, but rather die of my sin and to be of service to God.”
“What would be of help is to know where to begin firstly in true repentance, so that there is the dieing out of my flesh, a complete purging of my sinfulness. Then in true repentance begin to approach God that is right according to His righteousness. That there is true glorification and uplifting of His name.”
“However because I no longer attend the UPC church or any other organized religion because I have been shown they are all an abomination to God,”
“So I know I am far from perfect, but I prepared this not only in the hopes of bring forth His truth but to expose any errors I have that is in need of correction.”
“I am so out of sorts, I have no roots, no foundation, I am wondering about and I need it to stop. I do believe God Is moving me along I just do not know if I am moving the way He is calling me towards or I am continuing in disobedience?”
“I know now my thoughts were empty, selfish lies.”
“But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned” (Matthew 12:36-37 MKJV).
His declared justification for concealing his sin is that he’s a vile sinner deserving of no mercy or good. Now I understand why he kept reiterating that point. He was guilty, knew it, but wasn’t prepared to come clean. He was trying to justify himself with God by repeating a self-abasing confession. It will not do. Jeff has willingly deceived himself.
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned” (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 MKJV).
There are several things he says in his parting letter that are so wrong and starkly contradictory, yet remarkably, he refuses to see the glaring error. He proudly rambles off false information and consequential nonsensical reasoning about the historical journey on earth of the Lord’s Body of saints and those posing as the Lord’s congregation/body/church.
All the while, with feigned humility, he confesses he has no more going for him than we do and proudly concludes that God is calling him to a walk deeper than ours, so he must go elsewhere because we can’t lead him further.
And where is that elsewhere? It is to the deepest hell of nominal orthodox Christendom, the very seat of Satan on earth - pomposity, black garb, prolific images, forbidden titles, diabolical doctrines, ritual, arrogance, contradiction and all darkness wrapped into one. How amazing is that? But later, I’ll tell you what’s happening and why.
Jeff says he has learned something from us. Has he? Has he never red Diabolical Doctrines, every one of which the Orthodox Church supports? For one glaring example, did Jesus dress in black or have any of His disciples do so - see Jeff’s justification link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qauuydXcuJY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)? Has he not red The True Marks of a Cult? What has he learned? Obviously, he has believed nothing we teach, nothing at all.
In 1976, I had a prophecy for a Dave Grier, a young Christian seeking to please men and to be pleased of them. I had tried to teach and to reason with him according to what the Lord had given me to that point, but to no avail.
In the prophecy, the Lord repeatedly declared He was delivering Dave over to the destroyer for the destruction of the flesh and there he would learn that the Lord was Lord. Dave immediately left us and headed to Saskatoon to join a famed “Spirit-filled” church of about 1000 fairly new and young excited attendees, Mount Zion Christian Center, led by Bill Kellers and Dave Roberts, single men in their thirties or so.
I wondered, and yes, for a time, doubted my prophecy when that happened. Marilyn and I were suddenly very alone. Were we rejected or bypassed by the Lord? Was I deluded? We had heard this new congregation Dave joined of 1000 mostly young people was very much alive in the Lord. Except that about a year after that prophecy to Dave, the Lord told us the pastors of that church were beasts, and Marilyn had a dream in 1975, over a year before the prophecy to Grier, of Bill Kellers tormenting her by hovering hot hands over her back, burning though not touching her as she was laying down.
Fourteen years later in 1990, when the Lord led us to revisit all the people we had left in the past, we visited Dave Grier, among others, and learned that their beloved, admired hero co-pastors, Kellers and Roberts, were discovered to be homosexuals. The shocked, disillusioned members were suddenly scattered to the four winds.
After the break-up of their “Spirit-filled” congregation, Dave Grier married one of the members who was previously Orthodox. He and his wife joined the Orthodox Church and Dave went on to hold a position as some sort of deacon or elder. This is that same church Jeff Wilschut has decided to join.
How had the congregants of Mount Zion Christian Center been deceived, and why? Sin is the answer...they were lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. They had greatly enjoyed their church and its pastors, Dave and Bill, who were handsome, charismatic, clever and free-wheeling.... I recall how shortly after Dave Grier left us and returned with a friend for a quick visit, he thought of us as legalistic and overly sober. I have to confess we were finding our way at that time and were rather ignorant.
Until that visit with Dave and his wife in 1990, Marilyn and I hadn’t heard about the sexual stance of Dave Roberts and Bill Kellers. Then we understood the Word of the Lord to us concerning them in 1977.
Now to why Jeff has parted ways with us. He wasn’t honest about his past and his offensive sins. By the Lord, I called him a liar, for I knew he was. Because company was coming to Harvest Haven and he suspected he would be required to get honest and confess all, he decided not to join us for the occasion, or thereafter, obviously, hence the letter you read here.
In Jeff’s great pride and unbelief, he found a face-saving, conscience-salving way out. He deemed it better to join the worldly impressive forces of darkness, the agents of self-righteousness and self-preservation, than to come clean with God and man. He reasoned that if his sins were made known, he would be “blackballed,” not accepted by the world or able to find and keep a job. He couldn’t believe God is the Provider, the Ruler over the hearts of all men, the One Lord of lords to be trusted. He chose not to believe that God truly required him to come into the open, even as Christ died publicly for us.
In his pride, Jeff believed a lie instead and forsook the Way, the Truth and the Life. I tell you, this is a great tragedy and it will not go well for Jeff. What makes his choice even more contemptible is his hypocrisy, dishonesty heaped on dishonesty, his pretense of being called to and pursuing a “deeper, closer relationship with Him [God].”
I could address so many things he has declared in his letter and the video he refers to, but I don’t have the heart to do so. He has been handed over to the destroyer for the destruction of the flesh as was Dave Grier, and as the apostle Paul did with others according to the Scriptures.
We tried, we reasoned, we reached out. For a time when Jeff believed us, his mind evidently began to clear, but then he drew back and became confounded again, more than ever. Our hands are clean of his blood.
Given this situation, here are some remarkable past quotes from Jeff since he first came to TPOT:
“This will not make me a bed of roses, I am aware of the persecution I will face. I know there will be impossible challenges more then I can bare. I know I will be so hated, but none of that will save me. I fear Him who can put to death both body and soul, I will trust in God and serve Him and Him alone.”
“I am contacting you because I do not want to die a sinner, but rather die of my sin and to be of service to God.”
“What would be of help is to know where to begin firstly in true repentance, so that there is the dieing out of my flesh, a complete purging of my sinfulness. Then in true repentance begin to approach God that is right according to His righteousness. That there is true glorification and uplifting of His name.”
“However because I no longer attend the UPC church or any other organized religion because I have been shown they are all an abomination to God,”
“So I know I am far from perfect, but I prepared this not only in the hopes of bring forth His truth but to expose any errors I have that is in need of correction.”
“I am so out of sorts, I have no roots, no foundation, I am wondering about and I need it to stop. I do believe God Is moving me along I just do not know if I am moving the way He is calling me towards or I am continuing in disobedience?”
“I know now my thoughts were empty, selfish lies.”
“But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned” (Matthew 12:36-37 MKJV).
His declared justification for concealing his sin is that he’s a vile sinner deserving of no mercy or good. Now I understand why he kept reiterating that point. He was guilty, knew it, but wasn’t prepared to come clean. He was trying to justify himself with God by repeating a self-abasing confession. It will not do. Jeff has willingly deceived himself.
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned” (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 MKJV).
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: Going Deeper
One point Jeff Wilschut made has stuck with me as needing to be answered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Jeff's following words, we are among those he accuses of making the claim that the church/congregation/body of Christ/saints of God were essentially nonexistent for nearly 2 millennia. He accuses us of teaching the Church/Assembly/Congregation of God ceased to exist or disappeared. We have never taught such claptrap. Jeff's words:
"One other thing that stuck me as odd that I recently remembered is the seemingly long silence and void of Gods church for about 2000 years until miraculously a man, women or some people got a revelation from God and His church sprouted from those humble beginnings. There are many such revelations, and as a result many churches that all to this day do suppose they have the truth, while others are lead astray.
"The upc was one such church, which troubled me because simply anyone could make such claims, and there followers would just have to believe their revelation/s was/are authentic. It just did not fit with what I had read in scripture, where Jesus Christ came as the corner stone of His Church to take 12 disciples, Peter being one of them who was latter told he was the rock on which He would build his church. From those 12 who went out to preach the gospel setting up His Church which included many Churches, that after their passing away those churches all vanished, and what pursued was this great void." END.
I repeat, we've never taught that the True Congregation ("church") of saints disappeared or ceased to be for millennia or even many centuries until now. What we HAVE taught is that the Lord has reserved His body of saints, however few in number, throughout history, often hardly perceived, yes, but ever there, and in their faithfulness and by their sacrifice even unto blood, we have received the Truth of God, the Gospel.
All these centuries, their lives have been "hid in Christ," so to speak, but the saints have been there all along. They have been the despised, maligned and persecuted people, hated by the world and particularly by the pompous, formal, pretentious Christian entities that are loved by the world and who, in spirit and essence, ARE the world.
The church history one studies in the world's institutions has been almost exclusively about the false church in its myriad of forms, identified as formal, nominal orthodox Christian denominations or even informal nondenominational religious organizations and groups. Those have always been around since Christ's disciples, after His resurrection, began preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, taking this news to the ends of the earth.
The true saints of God, His Congregation, have been around all along. They also had much revelation. I expect there's little we know today that the early saints didn't know or understand. Indeed, I believe we would be hard pressed to share truths we know that they didn't know.
I wanted to make this point clear in this thread, for whatever reason. I think it's important.
"One other thing that stuck me as odd that I recently remembered is the seemingly long silence and void of Gods church for about 2000 years until miraculously a man, women or some people got a revelation from God and His church sprouted from those humble beginnings. There are many such revelations, and as a result many churches that all to this day do suppose they have the truth, while others are lead astray.
"The upc was one such church, which troubled me because simply anyone could make such claims, and there followers would just have to believe their revelation/s was/are authentic. It just did not fit with what I had read in scripture, where Jesus Christ came as the corner stone of His Church to take 12 disciples, Peter being one of them who was latter told he was the rock on which He would build his church. From those 12 who went out to preach the gospel setting up His Church which included many Churches, that after their passing away those churches all vanished, and what pursued was this great void." END.
I repeat, we've never taught that the True Congregation ("church") of saints disappeared or ceased to be for millennia or even many centuries until now. What we HAVE taught is that the Lord has reserved His body of saints, however few in number, throughout history, often hardly perceived, yes, but ever there, and in their faithfulness and by their sacrifice even unto blood, we have received the Truth of God, the Gospel.
All these centuries, their lives have been "hid in Christ," so to speak, but the saints have been there all along. They have been the despised, maligned and persecuted people, hated by the world and particularly by the pompous, formal, pretentious Christian entities that are loved by the world and who, in spirit and essence, ARE the world.
The church history one studies in the world's institutions has been almost exclusively about the false church in its myriad of forms, identified as formal, nominal orthodox Christian denominations or even informal nondenominational religious organizations and groups. Those have always been around since Christ's disciples, after His resurrection, began preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, taking this news to the ends of the earth.
The true saints of God, His Congregation, have been around all along. They also had much revelation. I expect there's little we know today that the early saints didn't know or understand. Indeed, I believe we would be hard pressed to share truths we know that they didn't know.
I wanted to make this point clear in this thread, for whatever reason. I think it's important.
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Paul Cohen
Re: Going Deeper
Yes, Victor, what I hear Jeff saying is that unless you're built on the foundation of Peter as the original pontiff, which foundation he claims has been maintained truly and administered through various formal traditions by the Orthodox Church (the Catholics having gone astray), you're missing the Boat.
But didn't the apostles and prophets warn of apostasy and things going dark? Surely they did, and there wouldn't be a promise of repairing the breaches and restoring the paths to dwell in if this wasn't so.
“And those who come of you shall build the old ruins; you shall raise up the foundations of many generations; and you shall be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in” (Isaiah 58:12 MKJV).
There has been a remnant of faith, as also spoken of by the Lord.
"Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah" (Isaiah 1:9 KJV).
But didn't the apostles and prophets warn of apostasy and things going dark? Surely they did, and there wouldn't be a promise of repairing the breaches and restoring the paths to dwell in if this wasn't so.
“And those who come of you shall build the old ruins; you shall raise up the foundations of many generations; and you shall be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in” (Isaiah 58:12 MKJV).
There has been a remnant of faith, as also spoken of by the Lord.
"Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah" (Isaiah 1:9 KJV).
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: Going Deeper
Amen, Paul; so true! Here we are! Bless the Lord!
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Iris Schneider
Re: Going Deeper
"going deeper"
when I read this title and what Jeff had to say to us, it struck me: deeper is not the Lord's way. He helps us out of the pit we are in, gives new hope and strength and a rejoicing of a glad heart, because of the burden lifted by the grace of God. The humble will be exalted. If he is going deeper I got the impression he is going in deeper sin, not deeper in his relationship with the Lord.
The accusation he uttered does not come from the teachings here, but he falsely accused what he learned elsewhere. It was shocking and at the same time sad to me to see the twisted thinking of his mind to justify his own decision to a selfrighteous path that will indeed lead him deeper...in religious darkness.
when I read this title and what Jeff had to say to us, it struck me: deeper is not the Lord's way. He helps us out of the pit we are in, gives new hope and strength and a rejoicing of a glad heart, because of the burden lifted by the grace of God. The humble will be exalted. If he is going deeper I got the impression he is going in deeper sin, not deeper in his relationship with the Lord.
The accusation he uttered does not come from the teachings here, but he falsely accused what he learned elsewhere. It was shocking and at the same time sad to me to see the twisted thinking of his mind to justify his own decision to a selfrighteous path that will indeed lead him deeper...in religious darkness.