I much prefer the word 'capable' instead of 'grace'. To my understanding both words mean the same thing, so it doesn't matter what is used.
In the past, the word 'grace' brought much thought and questions with it. I would wonder if I understood it correctly and had many questions about how it worked. I doubted if I were graced. But 'capable' is so plain and clear to understand. Having knowledge of what is good or bad already let's me know I'm capable to choose, though initially bad habits may be hard to break.
And it's God who makes us capable.
Capable Grace
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Marina Carnat
Re: Capable Grace
Curious thinking, William...
I believe habits are different from sins. I believe grace is a gift of God, which comes after believing and obeying Him.
I believe habits are different from sins. I believe grace is a gift of God, which comes after believing and obeying Him.
Last edited by Marina Carnat on Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Eric Courtemanche
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:08 am
- Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
Re: Capable Grace
capability is the extent of someone's or something's ability.
capable is having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing.
Grace(which comes with His faith) from the Lord is the power He gives us to obey Him, which none of us are capable of making on our own. We get to choose whether we use what He gives us to obey Him, or refuse what He gives us to disobey Him and stand in disbelief of Him and what He's given us.
Eric C.
capable is having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing.
Grace(which comes with His faith) from the Lord is the power He gives us to obey Him, which none of us are capable of making on our own. We get to choose whether we use what He gives us to obey Him, or refuse what He gives us to disobey Him and stand in disbelief of Him and what He's given us.
Eric C.
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William Woeger
Re: Capable Grace
I believe what I said is what you all are saying. The understanding is there, instead I haven't used the word 'grace' as much.
Anything we are capable of is still only by the will of God. Before I was a believer, what I was able or unable to do was all restricted or allowed by God.
Likewise, being a believer, when I'm able (given grace) to obey Him, it's by the ability (grace) He has given.
They mean the same thing and come from the same Source.
Anything we are capable of is still only by the will of God. Before I was a believer, what I was able or unable to do was all restricted or allowed by God.
Likewise, being a believer, when I'm able (given grace) to obey Him, it's by the ability (grace) He has given.
They mean the same thing and come from the same Source.
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William Woeger
Re: Capable Grace
There are many more important things than this topic, I'm sure, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that understanding different things of life and how God works is a lot simpler than I have made them and perhaps others too.
Another thing I said above, which I want to be clear about, is that...Once we understand the right and wrong (a knowledge that God has made us capable to understand) it is then that we've been made capable to choose. No onus to put on God.
As we choose, our ability becomes sharper...so to speak.
Another thing I said above, which I want to be clear about, is that...Once we understand the right and wrong (a knowledge that God has made us capable to understand) it is then that we've been made capable to choose. No onus to put on God.
As we choose, our ability becomes sharper...so to speak.
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Simon Mwebaze
Re: Capable Grace
"As we choose, our ability becomes sharper...so to speak."
I think I have had a misunderstanding of what grace is. I have thought it becomes so easy from the start to put away sin when we know what to do but I don't quite think that's how it happens. I think Victor said in a recent email that we have a talent which we need to invest however small it may seem to us. As you said, William, it gets sharper as we choose.
When things have become difficult on my side, I have been the first to say, "Where's the grace?" I did it today too. But I have sown for how hard things are. May we look to Him however difficult it seems, seeing it to the end.
On the otherhand, when things have suddenly become easy for me, I am quick to do whatever I want neglecting the Lord. I think we learn to appreciate grace when we work with the little we have while the Lord adds as we're faithful.
I appreciate the topic. Thanks, Eric and William.
I think I have had a misunderstanding of what grace is. I have thought it becomes so easy from the start to put away sin when we know what to do but I don't quite think that's how it happens. I think Victor said in a recent email that we have a talent which we need to invest however small it may seem to us. As you said, William, it gets sharper as we choose.
When things have become difficult on my side, I have been the first to say, "Where's the grace?" I did it today too. But I have sown for how hard things are. May we look to Him however difficult it seems, seeing it to the end.
On the otherhand, when things have suddenly become easy for me, I am quick to do whatever I want neglecting the Lord. I think we learn to appreciate grace when we work with the little we have while the Lord adds as we're faithful.
I appreciate the topic. Thanks, Eric and William.
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: Capable Grace
Simon, it has nothing at all to do with your understanding of grace. One who knows the Law of God, as you do, and cares to be right with God, will avail himself of Him, though he may never have heard of the word, never mind understood it. I see you as full of wicked excuses and self-justification.
I knew nothing of these things as a sinner. I only knew I wanted to be right with Him and couldn't get out of sin. Pursuing Him and failing, He personally encouraged me to continue. What you're after is a wave of His magic wand. You want a freebie, a sluggard you are, so much so it's too much to put your hand to your mouth after dipping it in the bowl.
I knew nothing of these things as a sinner. I only knew I wanted to be right with Him and couldn't get out of sin. Pursuing Him and failing, He personally encouraged me to continue. What you're after is a wave of His magic wand. You want a freebie, a sluggard you are, so much so it's too much to put your hand to your mouth after dipping it in the bowl.
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Shelton Smith
Re: Capable Grace
Hey William, Shelton here. I understand where you were going with grace giving us the capacity which increases our capability, for " great grace was upon them all" "and you shall receive power after the holy spirit has come upon you." I would like to add that grace is much more than what may be in us or upon us. God gave us grace before we were even in the world. In order to make us capable of doing anything pleasing to him, he accepted us. For we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. Mary found favor with God, who had no knowknowledge of what the salutation was for neither what she would be capable of performing, but found grace. Noah was not capable of saving even himself, couldn't even shut the door to the ark, but he found grace in the eyes of the Lord, that hidden wisdom ordained before the world began for his glory. God said to David that he would build a house for David. And it was his Seed who confessed "Do you believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works." We have been accepted in the Beloved, called into the fellowship of his dear son,where there is abundant grace. All these and more were first accepted into God, into his presence and fellowship. Both Adam and the second Adam were in the Father, accepted beloved. It was when they entered into the place prepared for them, being led by Him, that God, that "grace" in them was at work. This grace of God in which we stand does make us wonder.
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Eric Courtemanche
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:08 am
- Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
Re: Capable Grace
Hi Shelton,
Welcome to The Path of Truth Forum. Here are some good links to read on grace, so that you can know what it truly is:
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... of-god.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... ep-law.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood ... er-law.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After reading, if you have questions, you can post them here.
Eric C.
Welcome to The Path of Truth Forum. Here are some good links to read on grace, so that you can know what it truly is:
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... of-god.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... ep-law.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood ... er-law.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
After reading, if you have questions, you can post them here.
Eric C.
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Paul Cohen
Re: Capable Grace
Hi Shelton, and welcome to the forum,
William wasn’t saying grace increases our capability, but is capability itself. Our capability is nil, but God’s capability in Christ is sufficient for whatever is required of us, to do what is right in His sight.
“But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
You say “both Adam and the second Adam” had grace at work in them when “they entered the place prepared for them.”
The last Adam IS the grace of God at work in those who believe:
“And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace. For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:16-17).
The apostle Paul distinguished between the two Adams:
1 Corinthians 15:45-49
(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
(48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The first Adam fell, but the last Adam raises up the sons of Adam through grace by faith. Before Christ came for me, I was without grace or hope in this world. So what do you mean by this saying?
“God gave us grace before we were even in the world. In order to make us capable of doing anything pleasing to him, he accepted us.”
I see that you’re referring to what Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
Ephesians 1:3-7
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(4) According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(6) To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
(7) In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
Though chosen before the foundation of the world, I was born into sin, subjected to vanity and capable of nothing until Christ appeared to me and adopted me. As Paul goes on to say:
Ephesians 2:4-8
(4) But God, Who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(5) Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)
(6) And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(7) That in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(8) For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
You’re not seeing clearly, Shelton, because you’re walking in the power of the first Adam and calling that “grace.” You're presuming to have God's grace by doctrine rather than through Jesus Christ.
“If anyone thinks to be religious among you, yet does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is vain” (James 1:26).
Paul
William wasn’t saying grace increases our capability, but is capability itself. Our capability is nil, but God’s capability in Christ is sufficient for whatever is required of us, to do what is right in His sight.
“But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
You say “both Adam and the second Adam” had grace at work in them when “they entered the place prepared for them.”
The last Adam IS the grace of God at work in those who believe:
“And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace. For the Law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:16-17).
The apostle Paul distinguished between the two Adams:
1 Corinthians 15:45-49
(45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
(48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The first Adam fell, but the last Adam raises up the sons of Adam through grace by faith. Before Christ came for me, I was without grace or hope in this world. So what do you mean by this saying?
“God gave us grace before we were even in the world. In order to make us capable of doing anything pleasing to him, he accepted us.”
I see that you’re referring to what Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
Ephesians 1:3-7
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(4) According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(6) To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
(7) In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
Though chosen before the foundation of the world, I was born into sin, subjected to vanity and capable of nothing until Christ appeared to me and adopted me. As Paul goes on to say:
Ephesians 2:4-8
(4) But God, Who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(5) Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)
(6) And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
(7) That in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
(8) For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
You’re not seeing clearly, Shelton, because you’re walking in the power of the first Adam and calling that “grace.” You're presuming to have God's grace by doctrine rather than through Jesus Christ.
“If anyone thinks to be religious among you, yet does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is vain” (James 1:26).
Paul
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Shelton Smith
Re: Capable Grace
" And out of His fullness we all have received, and grace for grace.
For the law came through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." It is comforting to know that he who emptied himself had to be filled, for his life and work, for he increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and men. It is written " For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." He who is grace, received it. Pray that God through his Son Jesus works in me to will and to do for his good pleasure.
For the law came through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." It is comforting to know that he who emptied himself had to be filled, for his life and work, for he increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and men. It is written " For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." He who is grace, received it. Pray that God through his Son Jesus works in me to will and to do for his good pleasure.
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: Capable Grace
Shelton, you are religious, you're familiar with the letter of the Scriptures, but you aren't real. You're pretentious. The question is "Why?" Why won't you be yourself instead of putting on a religious front? Why won't you be honest with yourself, with God and the world?
Your knowledge and expression of doctrine wins no favor with God; indeed, if you know so much, He'll hold you in account for it. You either don't realize that, obviously not being taught of God, you don't care, or both.
Should we not say these things that are true, in hopes you'll repent of your self-righteousness, for your sake? Because self-righteousness is what you manifest. This isn't the Lord speaking by you, but you presuming to be speaking in His Name. DON'T argue or deny it; just get honest for the first time in your life.
Shelton, you can fool yourself and many people with such flowery religious, "loving" patient speech, but you don't fool God.
Your knowledge and expression of doctrine wins no favor with God; indeed, if you know so much, He'll hold you in account for it. You either don't realize that, obviously not being taught of God, you don't care, or both.
Should we not say these things that are true, in hopes you'll repent of your self-righteousness, for your sake? Because self-righteousness is what you manifest. This isn't the Lord speaking by you, but you presuming to be speaking in His Name. DON'T argue or deny it; just get honest for the first time in your life.
Shelton, you can fool yourself and many people with such flowery religious, "loving" patient speech, but you don't fool God.
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Shelton Smith
Re: Capable Grace
Mr Hafichuk. I don't disagree to start quarrels but wish to do for the truth, not against it. Concerning who I am, the Lord knows what I am. I have no religion neither profess any. I have no good deeds of my own. Without Him, I can do nothing. Sorry I haven't taken more time to express to you who I truly am. I am a common man, a working man, working what is honest, and eating my own bread in quietness. Those that know me and have been in my life know that that is the truth. I lie not. When I am at work I am quiet. Even now, while separated from my family, I am in the quiet. I wish to fool no one, for I have been fooled, and I know the pain. I don't have the understanding that I have own my own but have learned to wait patiently for the Lord who is the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God. Neither do I profess to be anything but a believer (you know dear) or know anything of myself (the Lord judges me). As concerning any self righteousness evident, please forgive me and pray on my behalf. God is giving me grace to keep his word in a good and honest heart and the ones close to me know who I am in secret. Concerning my speech, I have been one to be fiery critical and judgemental, condemning everything that I didn't think came from God, which didn't agree with my understanding (the Lord even Jesus forgive me for the ones I have hurt) But the servant of [the] Lord must not strive, but to be gentle to all, apt to teach, patient,
in meekness instructing those who oppose, if perhaps God will give them repentance to the acknowledging of [the] truth, and [that] they awake out of the snare of the Devil, having been taken captive by him, so as to do the will of that one. So no, I won't quarrel. I accept that I know in part, knowing nothing yet as I ought to know. I may come off as challenging, but I do not know any of you to have something against you. The Lord knows. Let us have salt within ourselves, but peace among one another. I, your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, Shelton.
in meekness instructing those who oppose, if perhaps God will give them repentance to the acknowledging of [the] truth, and [that] they awake out of the snare of the Devil, having been taken captive by him, so as to do the will of that one. So no, I won't quarrel. I accept that I know in part, knowing nothing yet as I ought to know. I may come off as challenging, but I do not know any of you to have something against you. The Lord knows. Let us have salt within ourselves, but peace among one another. I, your brother and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, Shelton.
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Paul Cohen
Re: Capable Grace
This response from Shelton is a perfect demonstration of Victor's description of him.