Making Vows

[Thierry Bwuzure]

Greetings and Good Shabbat everyone,

I had a correspondence with Victor, he asked me to post it on the forum.

29 décembre 2017 à 16:30

Hi Victor,

I have a question. There is one of my contacts that need some pieces of advice.
He red the article about "Christmas" in French.

It has been a revelation for him as he said. I think he needs more of TPOT teachings. We met in a preview bible study I was in.

As far I as I see, he still influenced by the teachings provided there.
May the Lord help him.

He has a child and lives with the mother of the child, but they are not married.
Now the parents of the young lady require him to do the engagement and to marry her. They are in abstinence. He doesn't know what to do. If he doesn't engage, the parents will end this relationship.

I told him it is a good thing, that he needs to act on it because they are disobedient toward God. That the parents represent the authority of the Lord. She is also a believer. But I don't know the matter in details.

I also said to him that they need to pray about it.

What do you think, should he forsake this relationship? I will ask him if he understands English.

Maybe it is better to be directly in contact with you.

On 29 December 2017 à 22:38 Victor said:

Questions: Is he a true believer? Is she? When did the abstinence begin – after he or she believed? If they live together and have a child, why won’t they comply with her parents’ wishes? Shouldn’t they?

It doesn’t take an official paper or ceremony to be married. Does he consider her his wife? Does she consider him her husband? Were they in fornication? Were the parents aware of their relationship and its extent? Lots of questions.


30 décembre 2017 à 00:06

Hi Victor,

I checked their FB accounts and I am not sure they are true believers.
They post a lot of pictures of themselves. He's not in a congregation.

Everything in his life was falling apart this year. Is it a sign of true faith?
I do know that the girl left him one or two months ago. Alone with a child.
He was without a job, still searching for one. I support him by giving some money.

Last month he tried to end his life by drinking bleach. God preserved him.
I will ask them your questions.

Thank you

Thierry


30 décembre 2017 à 21:52

Hi Victor,

Down below you can read the mail I received from him. The person I am in contact with from the bible study. I tried to translate it the best I could.
If it's not clear enough let me know, I will try to make it so. In italics, you can find comments I made regarding his answer.

______________________________________________________________________

Hi brother,

We are very proud of this first response that frankly touches several aspects.
After reading (Madam and me) these articles we understood a lot of things.

I sent him the link to these teachings and advised him to read it before responding to your questions;
"Repentance" and "The Cross - Only Death Sentence Will Avail"

Answers to the questions:

1 - Is he a true believer? Is she?

* We are true believers and have the fear of God.

2 - When did abstinence begin - after believing?

*I start to believe two years ago putting into practice the word, I mean the teachings. Abstinence began directly after having believed. I admit that with Madame it was a problem of understanding seeing me change lane and be rejected by family, given the situation or rather the succession of trials in Jesus Christ. She was obliged to retire, getting closer to her family, who immediately after a few months came to understand my lane, so that now Madame believed, including some members of her family.

Of what I heard in the Bible study, he testified that a group of persons contacted him to give him a job in the US. It seems they were Freemasons or something like that. He refused it. He quit the job he had for this proposition.

3 - If they live together and have a child, why won't they comply with her parents' wishes? Shouldn't they?

* We respect our parents, are all obliged to follow their rules even if somewhere they do not embrace our understanding that grows in us.
So we must imperatively get along despite some financial problems and stand united in prayer so that God may react. We understand that we don't need an official document or ceremony to be married. But we must not ignore the word that tells us: "to honor our parents, the authorities ..."

The parents are asking to follow the tradition. The pretender has to give them money. A ceremony comes along with that gift. Then they can officially get married (another ceremony). A lot of money is involved here. I think that's why he is a bit anxious. By the way, they are from Cameroun.

Another note, before I could send him some money, he tried to commit suicide.
He went to the hospital for a few days. Right after that, his child got really sick.
When I started to support him financially, his girlfriend came back. I ask myself if there's a link.

4 - Does he considers her his wife? Does she consider him her husband?

* I consider her my wife, it's been six years I am faithful, sincere... and her too.
We both have complicated families and once were abandoned by our parents.
We hope we can make the difference by the grace of God because he watches over us; lives in us and has a plan for us. This awareness and the fear of God remains in our daily life.

5 - Were they in fornication?

No, since we believed we no longer live in fornication OUR SON JESHUA WILL BE TWO YEARS ON 13 JANUARY. SINCE HE WAS BORN AND WE HAVE BELIEVED WE DO NOT LIVE IN FORNICATION AND HAVE PRAYED GOD TO STRENGTHEN US. TOO MANY TRIALS, GOD WATCHES, and we thank God for it, nights and days, winds and tides, he strengthens us.

6 - Were parents aware of their relationship and extent?

* Yes

Here are two questions I ask him when sending the email with your response;

7 - Have you fully turned to God?

* I answer in the affirmative. We abandoned ourselves to him alone as our personal savior.

I also said to him that I checked his FB account. One picture was really disturbing and ungodly; advised him to repent and ask forgiveness to the Lord. Also, I noticed a lot of "selfies".

The deviant image, date of 2012, if I am not mistaken. And reassure you that I sincerely asked Elohim for forgiveness for all. So I really understand when you say;

"Be careful not to be focused on your external image ... With social networks, it's so easy to fall into narcissism". In our facebooks, we define ourselves by our biblical messages by joining our photos.

8 - Are you true believers? Another question I ask to be sure.

*Yes. Here is the summary of answers after many analyzes. Have a good day in the peace of the Creator.

31 décembre 2017 à 04:08 Victor said:

Thierry, I’m not convinced. Why the ungodly FB page? Why the woman returning once you start sending money? Why the suicide attempt by a believer? Questions continue. Show me their FB page. How does one prove they are Christian or make themselves one by refraining from evil that true Christians have nothing to do with in the first place? One does not change a pig or proving it is a sheep by washing it.

31 décembre 2017 à 05:44

Hi Victor,

You are right, I was not convinced either that they are true believers.
The girlfriend sent me a voice message on WhatsApp today to wish me a happy new year.

I didn't react but that is another proof that they are far away from the Word of God.

If you don't reach to go on their pages let me know.

Last month, I was considering to stop supporting him financially. It is really disturbing. If it's nourishing a lie, why should I do so?

What should I say to him about this wedding? If they are nonbelievers in the eyes of God, I think they should go on with their lives. Correct me if I am mistaking.

It's a good lesson for me.

Thank you for the clarification,

Thierry.

31 décembre 2017 à 06:36 Victor said:

Heading out here but caught this just now. I looked over the FB pages. Wondering why you have been supporting them?

31 décembre 2017 à 07:16

I was self-righteous when I met him on the line. It was just before I came on TPOT. After a month, I thought something was wrong but I didn't act on it.

There is this scripture that applies to this matter:

Proverbs 6:1-5

Proverbs 6:1-5 MKJV
(1) My son, if you are surety for your friend, if you struck your palms with a stranger,
(2) you are snared with the words of your mouth, you are taken with the words of your mouth.
(3) My son, do this now, and deliver yourself when you have come into the hand of your friend; go, humble yourself and make your friend sure.
(4) Do not give sleep to your eyes or slumber to your eyelids.
(5) Deliver yourself as a gazelle from the hunter's hand, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler.

At first, when I read this scripture it really hit me strongly. And that is an issue I have to repent and to give to The Lord.

Now, I have less the tendency to do it but sometimes this bad habit comes back. I guess that I need to act on it.

31 décembre 2017 à 07:33

I wanted to be a "good Christian".

31 décembre 2017 à 23:32 Victor said:

You aren’t answering the question, T. Why were you sending him money? “Wondering why you have been supporting them?”

31 décembre 2017 à 23:52

Sorry, He was telling me at that time that he was in trouble. He didn't know what to do alone with no job no money, with his little child. He said to me that his girlfriend left him. I thought I could help for a while. He was desperate I guess that's why I helped. He had to give food to his little boy.

1 January 2018 à 00:06

I re-checked the conversation we had on the phone, his girlfriend came back when the child got sick. I don't know if it changes the fact that there is something wrong there.

1 January 2018 à 00:25 Victor said:

I could be wrong, but I suspect the fellow has been suckering you, Thierry. What’s more, they don’t believe; they are using the Lord’s Name to deceive you so.

1 January 2018 à 00:53

Yes, I think you are right Victor. I should not feel obligated to give him support.
And that is not the case anymore.

The second time I gave him money it's because he said to me they were "tensions" between him and his girlfriend and that the kid needed food!

Obviously, like you say "he has been suckering me". Instead of sharing The Word of God, he always talks to me about the worldly matters.

The first contact I had with him was on skype. I red the conversation. Actually, he needed money to get his laptop back. He was the first talking about money problem.

And on top of that, he is not really patient. He was kindly reminding me to send the support, like gently urging me to do it.

Now the wedding subject, maybe he wants me to finance it. I don't know but I think that The Lord is showing me that he is a heathen.

1 January 2018 à 01:09 Victor said:

Now I know you’ve been suckered by a thief and liar.

Question: How does that Scripture passage apply? Did you make a solemn promise to him or what? Are you committing yourself to his creditors for money borrowed? What’s the deal?

1 January 2018 à 01:31

Proverbs 6:1-2 MKJV
(1) My son, if you are surety for your friend, if you struck your palms with a stranger,
(2) you are snared with the words of your mouth, you are taken with the words of your mouth.

I thought that the first part of the scripture applied to this situation when I red it a few weeks ago. The first thought I had was the support I was giving to him.

He lost his three older brothers, he considers that God has sent him another brother. I agreed naively with that vision. So I guess I made myself responsible for his life and his daily problem.

It's like I am in charge of him as his older brother. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's what came to my mind.


(3) My son, do this now, and deliver yourself when you have come into the hand of your friend; go, humble yourself and make your friend sure.
(4) Do not give sleep to your eyes or slumber to your eyelids.
(5) Deliver yourself as a gazelle from the hunter's hand, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler.

For the second part, now I don't think it really applies to that matter.
But the last verses got my attention, I felt the need to deliver myself from this situation.

What do you think?

4 January 2018 à 00:21

Hi Victor,

I don't know if you received the last mail I sent you. It was responding to your question on the scripture quoted "Proverbs 6:1-5".

Maybe it was not clear, anyway I decided to stop sending money and to stop trying to be in fellowship with him.

He texted me on WhatsApp. He didn't ask me anything about his marriage. I don't really know how to act with him anymore, but I think that only the Truth does matter. The Lord is taking care of it.

Thierry

5 January 2018 à 03:09

Hi Victor,

Here is a short update on Jean-Brice, the person I was giving financial support;

Today, He sent me a message on Whatsapp with that request (in summary):

"Can you help me, it is soon the birthday of my son and after what he went through (sickness), I'd like to give him a present and organize a party with other children of his age. His birthday is on 13th January. Have mercy on me and my girlfriend. We would like to buy him a toy and a cake. Please don't forget it."

So I said the Truth to Him being a pagan and an unbeliever. That I would not send money anymore.I gave him the link to the French translation of the teachings of TPOT.I thought it was the best I can do.

I thank the Lord for this revelation and I will pray to the Lord to purge my heart. Because if I behaved with others as he did with me, I need to ask for forgiveness.

Lately, I was asking God to give me understanding about racism. I searched that topic in the forum. Yesterday, I red the topic "Fanning the flames of racism".

I realized how racist I was and that some bitterness was still in my heart. Against Africans in the first place, because when I was young people of my country would always tell me that I was a "white" boy. Behaving differently. Even my mom said that to me once.

It was a hard time because I really thought I was like anybody else. There is this African pride one need to have and to show. With the slavery thing, I was not "pro-black" younger.
I remember once somebody argued with me in an African history class because I said that "we as Africans" should not focus on slavery.

But when I grew up, I had an Afrocentrist phase. Problem with the authority, police and "white supremacy". Egypt and the pyramids, all this philosophy's doctrine. I was not taking my responsibility.

And one thing shocked me when I was in Burundi- Rwanda for the first time 11 years ago, how children came to me and beg for something to eat or for money.
Something was really uncomfortable. I understand why all this is happening. "Victims are perpetrators". It is so true to me now.

I had my time having pride and bitterness against "black", "white" even "Arab" people. Lately, it was not so, but I took "a slap in the face" after acknowledging the reason of the root of racism. I am thankful that I learn this lesson.

For sure, my heart still needs to be cleansed. This little episode opened my eyes. I can only praise the Lord and let Him lead me where He wants me to go.

Thank you for your time,

Thierry

6 January 2018 à 05:57 Victor said:

The fellow is surely a liar and thief. If he were the Lord’s he would mind these words and be thoroughly ashamed of what he is doing; he wouldn’t dare ask for anything.

“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God [not man]” (Philippians 4:6 MKJV).

I still don’t understand why you were giving to him. It’s clear it wasn’t because he was a minister of the Lord to you. Was it in the name of brotherhood? What kind? Of the race? Of humankind? Do you see him as your brother along those lines? If so, what of the words John speaks, saying, “Friendship with the world is enmity with God”?

Or did you think you were helping a brother in the Lord in need, giving alms to the poor, “especially those of the household of faith”? What made you think he was a Christian? The profession of faith? Is that not judging by the appearance?

6 January 2018 à 11:17

Hi Victor,

Actually, after our correspondence, I didn't say anything to him. I was waiting for his reaction.I prayed to the Lord to give me a clarification on that matter. If I had to correct the fellow and tell him on that moment that I will not help him anymore.

He was still waiting for a response to his questions about marriage. I waited for him to make contact with me. I wanted to know his motivation and what would be his first request after the whole correspondence I had with you.

He didn't know yet what was my stance and what was your thought about him.

Two days ago, that is when he sent me that message on WhatsApp asking for support for his son's birthday. I thought it was an answer to my prayer; normally he would ask me something about his wedding in the first place. Instead, he asked me to help him with his kid. I thought it was out of context.

So yesterday, I sent him the email with what I think is the Truth about him and the decision I took. In the mail, I said in short to him that I think he's a pagan, not a true believer. That he considers me a milk cow, that he was more speaking of his financial problem than the Word of God. I talked about everything I had in mind to clarify the situation with him.

I even quoted this from you: "Give a man bread to eat and he will be hungry again". It was so relevant to this matter.

He answered to me right after to ask for forgiveness; He is sorry but He is reminding me with sweet words and in CAPITAL LETTERS that I promised to help him, NO MATTER WHAT, till he finds a job.

He doesn't' consider me a milk cow. It is God's plan. I am the one that God has placed on his way. I am the brother who has changed his spiritual life. It is a misunderstanding from me. It is the work of the enemy.

Some other things but I don't believe him. He is getting too emotional. The Lord will correct me but I am convinced that it's not right to keep in touch with him.

About your questions in what name I supported him; It was in the name of brotherhood in Christ I gave him support. I really believed that he was a brother in Christ after knowing the
situation in which he was, and like you say: "That I was helping a brother in the Lord in need"

At that time, I couldn't tell the difference between true and false fellowship, true and false believer. It looks like I am still not fully aware. I judged by the appearance in the first place.

But the more I was reading teachings on TPOT, the more I knew something was wrong with him. I didn't act on directly. That is why I asked you some advice.

I am thankful that this is happening. I think that the Lord is showing me that "Friendship with world is enmity with God" like you mention in your questions.

Not later than yesterday, a childhood friend living in Brussels contacted me 'cause another childhood friend came from Canada to visit his family. They were going to see each other in another friend's place.
I did pray about it before going there to correct me if that was a good thing to do.It was already Shabbat time but I thought it cannot be bad and respond to the invitation.

Now I really think I was wrong, the Lord is showing me that I have to forsake those friendships!

The first friend that contacted me is a Muslim. He came to pick me and we went to meet the others.

He wanted to talk to me before going inside. We were sit in his car and he began to ask me why I was standing for Israël, that before I was not so (he sees what I post on Facebook).

I spoke what I believe is the Truth to him but he could not understand. For him, it is an economic issue. That is so far from reality. But he could not receive what I was telling him. He was asking why I ended the relationship I had. He can't get it. I said that we have to forsake everything that is against God, and testified to him that I am following the Word of God.

I couldn't go into details because he was really not open.

In conclusion, he said to me that he does not agree with what I am going through and most important why I support Israël.

I even gave him a scripture about the nations that will go against Israël. That we are in the time of that prophecy 'cause he was giving the argument that the majority of the countries are against Jerusalem being the capital of Israël.

I even advised him to read the Torah, that as a Muslim he should do it. I don't think he will.

After that conversation, we went inside to meet the others "friends". It was uncomfortable to sit there. Then he brought me back home, before leaving each other, he said; "You don't have to change, you need to smile, you need to stay the same and so on."

I didn't react and said bye to him. Home, I was thankful but at the same time, I felt sad. I thought of the song the Lord gave you "The Walk with God". It really describes what I am experiencing, first with that fellow that I supported and now with the childhood friend. I know now that I have to forsake them all.

Excuse me for the long message, but I needed to share it. I didn't know it will hurt me but it does. I know it is for good. God is faithful and He responded to me.

When He says that we have to forsake everything, He really means everything. May I receive His correction in every aspect of my life.

Thank you,

Thierry

6 January 2018 à 15:55 Victor said:

Good Sabbath to all!

Thierry, would you consider posting this correspondence at the Forum? What say you all? Has Thierry snared himself by his tongue in a vow that he must now keep? Is he trapped? What do YOU have to say, Lord?

6 January 2018 à 19:05 Victor said:

So exactly what were your specific words to him? What was the promise, if any? You are not being clear or logical, Thierry. You repeat what HE said you said but YOU didn’t tell me what YOU said.

And, Thierry, did you require no conditions from him? What if he didn’t go looking for a job, or at least not actively? What if he was only going to take a job that pleased him, passing on various job opportunities because knowing you would provide for him? What if he never got a job? Did you words promise unconditional support forever, no matter what?

6 January 2018 à 21:53

Hi Victor,

Good Shabbat,

I checked the first correspondence I had with him in Whatsapp, I did actually say to him:

"Brother, until you find a job I can support you a little. It must not be easy with the little child at your expense."

So, obviously, I made a promise. I totally forgot about it. It is the root of the problem.

When I spoke these words to him, I was considering he would find a job soon. He was searching for a job at that time, he even sent me a curriculum vitae.

There was no condition on this exchange but I didn't say I will help him "no matter what" instead I said, "I can support you a little".

Now I don't know if he is still searching for one. I really don't know what to do. Maybe I overreacted, I am responsible for what I said to him.

I am ashamed. I spoke too fast.

And I did send him another mail yesterday explaining that I could not help him anymore for two reasons.

One 'cause I do think that is not the right thing anymore. Two 'cause I'm in a situation that does not allow me to do so. My paycheck is lower, and I have to find another flat for the end of February, I didn't give him these details.

I will post the correspondence now, with the last answer I gave you.

Thank you

Thierry

Victor, sorry if I didn't give you enough details of this situation with more clarity and in good chronology. I didn't notice important words I said to him. If you need more information, let me know.

I did apologize to him on Whatsapp and ask for forgiveness if I was too hard on him. What should I do? I have to say that in the past I had that problem, always wanting to help people with a lack of discernment. Ending in a complex situation and being deceived. Is it the same context here? Is it true fellowship?

I am not really sure. May the Lord clarify this situation and remove all confusion.

Thank you all for reading.

Thierry

[Thierry Bwuzure]

Greetings everyone,

Here's an update on the correspondence;

7 janvier 2018 à 04:59 Victor says:

Thierry, Martin suggested I give you 2 examples in the Scriptures where a covenant/oath/promise was made wrongfully and see what you make of them. One was with Joshua and the elders and some inhabitants of Canaan (Joshua 9); the other was Ezra 9 where Jews had committed themselves in marriage to the Gentile women of the land.

However, by your record, I don’t see that you made a blanket statement as the fellow claims you did. So he lies and exaggerates. The bastard makes me angry, Thierry. But the real question to be answered here is, “Why did all this happen to you? Why have you been found a ready prey for this thief?”

I’ve certainly been there, big time, much worse than this, as you’ll read about, Lord willing.

8 janvier 2018 à 13:07 Thierry says:

Hi Victor, Hi Martin,

Thank you, Martin, for the suggestion of the two Scriptures.
I ​took the time to read it, in the beginning, it was not clear to me concerning Joshua 9.

But when I red it again today, if I understand good;
the people of Gibeon used a ruse to take advantage of the situation.
Normally they should have died in the first place​ ​being​ ​enemies.

It's like the person I supported, using (consciously or unconsciously) the name of the Lord in vain. I should not have any contact with him in the first place​ ​I believe.

Some verses caught my attention;

14 The men sampled their provisions and didn’t ask counsel from Yahweh’s mouth.​

15 Joshua made peace with them, and made a covenant with them, to let them live. The princes of the congregation swore to them.

Joshua made a covenant without asking God first, that's why he got deceived.
I think that is one of the reasons I got trapped with the fellow here.
Counting on my own righteousness to "feel" right before the Almighty, not asking for His guidance. That was inappropriate.

22 Joshua called for them, and he spoke to them, saying, “Why have you deceived us, saying, ‘We are very far from you,’ when you live among us?

23 Now therefore you are cursed, and some of you will never fail to be slaves,
both wood cutters and drawers of water for the house of my God.”​

Joshua exposed their lies to them to speak the Truth but still let them alive.
He got mercy because of God. But they have to serve the Only True God now.

In this case, I did expose to the fellow the Truth about the situation.
I can "minister" him by sharing TPOT teachings, and if it is Lord willing,
He will repent and follow the Word provided in it.

And in Ezra 9;

I understand that I mixed myself "with the people of the lands", the pagans.

2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves and for their sons,
so that the holy offspring[a] have mixed themselves with the peoples of the lands. Yes, the hand of the princes and rulers has been chief in this trespass.”

I keep on reading Ezra 10;

1 Now while Ezra prayed and made confession,
weeping and casting himself down before God’s house,
there was gathered together to him out of Israel a very great assembly
of men and women and children; for the people wept very bitterly.

2 Shecaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered Ezra, “
We have trespassed against our God, and have married foreig women
of the peoples of the land. Yet now there is hope for Israel concerning this thing.

3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God
to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them,
according to the counsel of my lord, and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God. Let it be done according to the law.

4 Arise; for the matter belongs to you, and we are with you. Be courageous, and do it.”

In the end of the chapter, they all forsake their wives and children.
That's what I believe I needed to do.
It is a sin to keep a relationship with the world.
I was not fully aware I was doing it with that fellow.
The Lord is showing me that I have to end all that is against His Will.

By His Grace, I understand that I have to learn a lot of things beyond my comprehension at the moment.
For sure, I will not entertain this kind of fellowship anymore. Better to be alone.
Though I assume that if he wants contact with me, I can only share teachings provided on TPOT.

Correct me if I am mistaken.

Victor, you asked me; “Why did all this happen to you? Why have you been found a ready prey for this thief?”

I don't really know why I have been in this situation. The only thing that comes to mind is that I was self-righteous, not having discernment, not asking counsel to God. Judging by the appearance. There is an issue with me, with my heart, but I can't tell which one. I will keep on praying for that matter.

Thank you for these answers, it was needful.

Thierry.

9 janvier 2018 à 16:10 Thierry says:

Hi Victor,

I think I know why I experienced this lately. I must be a thief and a liar myself unconsciously. It is hard to acknowledge it but I think it could be the main reason.

Thank you,

Thierry

Today, I understand I must ask God for guidance and confirmation at first for everything. Not to trust my own reason but to trust Him in everything.

Also, I need to take the time to read the Theo-autobiography. I started it but didn't go on. I am sure that it will help me to grow in the Lord and give me answers I need to receive little by little.

Thank you Lord for what you are doing,

Thierry.