The Path of Truth Forum

Here’s the latest letter from “a leader in the VCI church” (Victory Churches International), Ryan Thiessen, who has been finding fault with us because God called his church “a witch’s coven.” We're opening this here to comments. (Those on our mailing list should have the whole correspondence, but if anyone else needs it, let me know by email.) We start off with Victor’s last letter in the chain, the one to which Ryan replies.

2 Peter 2:1-22 MSG
(1) But there were also lying prophets among the people then, just as there will be lying religious teachers among you. They'll smuggle in destructive divisions, pitting you against each other--biting the hand of the One who gave them a chance to have their lives back! They've put themselves on a fast downhill slide to destruction,
(2) but not before they recruit a crowd of mixed-up followers who can't tell right from wrong. They give the way of truth a bad name.
(3) They're only out for themselves. They'll say anything, anything, that sounds good to exploit you. They won't, of course, get by with it. They'll come to a bad end, for God has never just stood by and let that kind of thing go on.
(4) God didn't let the rebel angels off the hook, but jailed them in hell till Judgment Day.
(5) Neither did he let the ancient ungodly world off. He wiped it out with a flood, rescuing only eight people--Noah, the sole voice of righteousness, was one of them.
(6) God decreed destruction for the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. A mound of ashes was all that was left--grim warning to anyone bent on an ungodly life.
(7) But that good man Lot, driven nearly out of his mind by the sexual filth and perversity, was rescued.
(8) Surrounded by moral rot day after day after day, that righteous man was in constant torment.
(9) So God knows how to rescue the godly from evil trials. And he knows how to hold the feet of the wicked to the fire until Judgment Day.
(10) God is especially incensed against these "teachers" who live by lust, addicted to a filthy existence. They despise interference from true authority, preferring to indulge in self-rule. Insolent egotists, they don't hesitate to speak evil against the most splendid of creatures.
(11) Even angels, their superiors in every way, wouldn't think of throwing their weight around like that, trying to slander others before God.
(12) These people are nothing but brute beasts, born in the wild, predators on the prowl. In the very act of bringing down others with their ignorant blasphemies, they themselves will be brought down, losers in the end.
(13) Their evil will boomerang on them. They're so despicable and addicted to pleasure that they indulge in wild parties, carousing in broad daylight.
(14) They're obsessed with adultery, compulsive in sin, seducing every vulnerable soul they come upon. Their specialty is greed, and they're experts at it. Dead souls!
(15) They've left the main road and are directionless, having taken the way of Balaam, son of Beor, the prophet who turned profiteer, a connoisseur of evil.
(16) But Balaam was stopped in his wayward tracks: A dumb animal spoke in a human voice and prevented the prophet's craziness.
(17) There's nothing to these people--they're dried-up fountains, storm-scattered clouds, headed for a black hole in hell.
(18) They are loudmouths, full of hot air, but still they're dangerous. Men and women who have recently escaped from a deviant life are most susceptible to their brand of seduction.
(19) They promise these newcomers freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption, for if they're addicted to corruption--and they are--they're enslaved.
(20) If they've escaped from the slum of sin by experiencing our Master and Savior, Jesus Christ, and then slid back into that same old life again, they're worse than if they had never left.
(21) Better not to have started out on the straight road to God than to start out and then turn back, repudiating the experience and the holy command.
(22) They prove the point of the proverbs, "A dog goes back to its own vomit," and, "A scrubbed-up pig heads for the mud."

“If you cannot give me the names of what you believe to be true churches and leaders, as I have requested numerous times, then I will assume you are one of those deceived cult leaders who think that they are their way is only way That puts you into the same category as William Branham and David Koresh.”

Many years ago, the Lord spoke to me and said the earth was utterly bereft of faith, of righteous people. I confess I wouldn’t believe it. After several decades of revelation and experience, I cannot deny the Truth of His Word, as in every other instance. This is so today even as it was in Noah’s day - whose church didn’t seem to grow all that much.

No, there is no other church organization and leader that is of God in this day that we’re aware of, which only serves to confirm the Word of the Risen Lord Jesus Christ to me.

“As far as 1 Cor 1:10 you are doing isegesis not exegesis (isegesis is a big word for you putting your meaning into the text instead of pulling the meaning out of the text).”

Yes, “eisegesis” is a big word, all right, so big you can’t spell it, not having enough letters from either the Greek or English languages for it.

You, Ryan, are altogether unclean, a self-righteous mocker and hypocrite, vile in the sight of Heaven. If you and your related companions like the Deweerts, the Hills, John Albiston and the Victory Church as a whole have anything to do with the Lord Jesus Christ, then pigs fly, Hell is Heaven and Heaven is a pigsty. Go your way, man wise in your own eyes, you who work sorcery and witchcraft; assume all you will and destroy yourself, as is appropriate. You’ve demanded it; now have at it.

In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Victor

Ryan's reply:

This gets better and better. Let me get this straight you quote scripture, to support your claims, from a paraphrase of the Bible written by a man you would call a false prophet. That would be like me using the Book of Mormon to support mine. It seems like that scripture was written exactly to expose you, in fact the name of your cult is right there in verse 2. You are the lying prophet, causing divisions. I'm not obviously not causing any divisions. You're the one recruiting a crowd of mixed up followers. This is evidenced by the email I got from one of your mixed up followers who had horrendous hermeneutics and you endorsed the email.

You use Noah to justify your "church" not growing. Noah was never commanded to grow a church. Noah didn't have the great commission, (Mt 28:19) we do. Matt 16:18 says the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. Gates are defensive not offensive that means they will not stop the church from plundering hell and populating heaven. Is 9:7 says there will be no end to the increase of the kingdom of heaven. There you go three verses to discredit your heresy.

You criticize me for a spelling mistake but you are guilty of doing that which the word implies over and over and you endorse your followers doing the same. How many times do I have to expose you. You have not been able to discredit any of my exegesis rather you point out petty spelling mistakes and make claims that "God told you" and I'm suppose to take your word for it. Here's a news flash for you. David Koresh and William Branham made the same claims you now make, that "God" told them. It's the same god telling you that told them, the god of this world, the father of lies. Your writings are from him too they contradict themselves.

Victor you know the problem with being deceived is you don't know it. You can't see the truth because your in over your head with deceit. I have shown it to you over and over yet you refuse to see it.

Don't link me with the Deweerts. I don't know the Hills that well but I can see they are bearing fruit in accordance with what the Bible calls good fruit. I have never heard of this John Albiston so I don't align myself with him either.

You need to lead your followers to repentance and come clean to them as the false prophet you know you are. The scripture that The Holy Spirit keeps bringing to mind every time I reply to your emails is Luke 18:10-13. You are the Pharisee in this passage. Your attitude betrays you. You pass judgement on my heart when God says man sees the outward but God sees the heart, 1 Sam 16:7.

Ryan

Ryan,

You do not know the Truth the Lord Jesus Christ. "Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) It is you who is deceived because you do not have a love for the Truth! " 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."( 2 Thessalonians 2: 9-12)

It is you who needs repentance, Ryan. “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (Ezekiel 18: 21-23)

" Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out." (Acts 3:19)

You know, Ryan, I was wondering.... what makes you a person who should be believed? People are so quick to bring up the likes of Koresh, Jim Jones et al. Let me ask you, Ryan, there are over 25.000 different "Christian" sects and religions... and counting - what good have they done for mankind? You simply have to take a look and listen around the world to see what state it's in - starting with the doctrines of the RCC, all the way down to its offshoots. Huh? What good?

Now you come along and you call two or a few, innocent people, preaching God's Truth and you call them/him a cult? Can you not see how foolish you sound? Neither Victor, nor Paul nor anyone fellowshipping with TPOT forces anyone to DO anything! There's certainly no force to pay them any money - there's no request to "move in with us" - there's no bag handed around (as in mainstream churches) asking for money. They spend hours upon hours, day and night, running a Website, preaching God's Truth, sharing their knowledge and wisdom, using various Bibles (Not only the MSG) for absolutely NO financial gain - no personal glorification - no self-love - no clap, clapping or screaming and shouting - no bright lights and fancy guitars and choruses. So I ask you, again, why should people believe what you have to say?

A Scripture comes to mind:

Mt. 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it."

Beryl.

The Accuser always comes accusing without substance, isn't it so?

SO true, Jason

Ryan, have you found any spiritual errors in the Message quote? Isn’t that the issue?

You compare our quoting Peterson to your quoting The Book of Mormon, but the latter is full of lies. You don’t see the difference between quoting from a book founded on lies (claiming to be of God) and a truthful rendition of a quote from God’s Book of Truth. The reason is you’re blind and are only seeking to fault those who confront you on your blindness. You have no love or use for the Truth, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who said God’s Church isn’t growing? We never said that, Satan. The Lord told Victor decades ago that the world has been void of faith, and we’ve seen and proven that great works like “Victory,” are of the world and not of Him. (Both specifically and generally – see The True Marks of a Cult and Diabolical Doctrines.)

Isn’t this what the Lord asked of His disciples, whether or not He would find faith on earth? “Yet when the Son of Man comes, shall He find faith on the earth” (Luke 18:8 MKJV).

So if we cause division, it’s according to the Lord’s commandment when He calls those who are now hearing His voice and believe to come out of men’s works. The dead are hearing and coming out of their graves. For this we praise Him and you condemn Him. You don’t cause division because you’re of the world and the world loves its own.

Being of the world, you’re naturally at enmity with God and those in His Son, seeing them as your adversaries:

“Your writings are from him [the “father of lies]… You need to lead your followers to repentance and come clean to them as the false prophet you know you are… You are the Pharisee… Your attitude betrays you.”

Does your attitude absolve you, hypocrite? You deny you’re passing judgment on us while condemning yourself for doing the very same thing:

“You pass judgement on my heart when God says man sees the outward but God sees the heart, 1 Sam 16:7.”

While the Lord has appointed us as ministers of His Gospel, the wonderful thing is that those who come and receive the Truth we preach in turn receive from the Lord. That’s the way of His Church – His Body. For example, we recently were contacted by a believer who ran across our site some years ago, shelved it, and then came back this January, having questions and being grateful to receive our answers in the Lord. Here’s what Rick said in two of his most recent emails.

First, he reports the following vision:

Hello Victor and Paul,

I continue to engage with the truths that you teach on your site and through your email list. I would like to share with you that, earlier on - shortly after I had rediscovered your website - a received an impression, or image related to you (I don't make any claim from where). What I "saw" was a great rock, with waters crashing against it, as on a seashore. My thoughts at the time were that you were "standing" while various "waves of opposition" continued to "crash" against you; at least so it seems to me to be the case as I continue to watch...

In this next letter, Rick describes what he sees happening at The Path of Truth:

Hi Victor and Paul,

This response has to do with your comments regarding your witness. I was quite moved by, and appreciate, your words and have reviewed The Three Degrees and The Rest of God. They affirm to me that I have yet a long way to go, and that there will continue to be challenges along the way. I will continue to review and learn from your ministry for as long as God is willing.

There was something else I wished to share: it has occurred to me that your email correspondence is similar to scripture, in that it is also like a "mirror." I learned some time ago through some hard experience that email is actually a challenging form of communication, because - like scripture, or anything being read - it is missing the personal contexts of tone of voice, body language and facial expression. What this causes is a dynamic, where the reader projects their own self into what they are reading. In other words, they add their own biases, emotions, etc. to what they are reading and it is reflected back on them. They begin with "what is expected" religiously, but this rapidly changes into negativity when they are corrected or disagreed with. They then "judge" your intentions by what is in their own heart when they read your comments, and so, it seems in this way to be another form of "mirror."

It seems to me that the same Spiritual assistance is needed when reading your communications as when reading scripture, in order to properly understand it. As far as your various corrections, so far I haven't seen anything you have pointed out to others that you haven't previously admitted to and applied to yourself during your journey. Why would we deny these things? They are true. Otherwise, what are we going through all of this heartache and hardship for? It is better to admit wrong and be rid of it than to resist (although, admittedly the "being rid of" can take a long time and resistance seems to be "built in").

Once again, thank you.

Rick

This is just a recent example of many other testimonies over the years. This is posted on our forum, Ryan, which you may join to post your reply.


Paul

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Corinthians 1

Ryan,
In not too many words I will attempt to expose you for what you are. Though I am well aware that this may end with you just continuing in your confusion.
I'm not here to defend Victor or Paul, nor a organization. I am not here to be right, or to proclaim a victory for a theological debate. The reason why I'm making anytime to write to you is simply because it's for your sake and for the sake of others who read these interactions to be aware of the truth.
The things you preach as a leader of your church will lead many people into suffering. I know because I have been as you. I was a leader too until I learned no matter what that these people will continue on in a never ending cycle of being "healed" and than continuing on doing the same sins all over again. And I along with them, there was no change other than what we pretended to be at Church. In which you will experience soon enough when you have a new set of "believers" replacing those who left. Soon enough you will see.

You just might not know the Lord like you claim to but that is not my place to judge.
I never claimed to know Him, but I do know of Him and especially what isn't. However I do see your heart! I can judge because its simply the truth. If a man just finished raping and killing innocent people yet claims to be God's servant is he not a liar? You would most likely embrace him as a brother because what difference would it make when you lead people to death by what you falsely preach. Isn't obvious for any man to say that these men are not of God? Even evil spirits can see who are His and who isn't of Him:
Acts 19:15 One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?”
However you do falsely-claim to know Him. You also accuse me of what you are doing your self by twisting scripture and falsely applying it to fit your beliefs.

Paul didn't reach this sinlessness. He records his own struggles with sin. Romans 7:15-21 is pretty clear. Paul says it is not Him that sins but sin is still happening and he can't completely stop it
“But now having been set free from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:22-23 LITV)
Ryan... I wouldn't need to say anything further. Are you not lying out of your own words? You say: " He records his own struggles with sin. Paul says it is not Him that sins but sin is still happening and he can't completely stop it"?
What Paul actually says:
Romans 7:16-18 (KJV) 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
What he says from the previous chapter and to the current one we are quoting explains that Paul himself cannot stop sin which is ever present within his flesh which dwells no good thing. Paul never claimed that he continued to sin, or that sin continued in him, rather he says he has been "set free from sin". How can you claim otherwise? He also says in the very next chapter that: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1-2)
John makes it clear that those who are born of God don't sin.
1 John 3:8-10 MKJV
(8) He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
(9) Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
(10) In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother.

It's not I who is confusing scripture and twisting it to mean something other than what it means. It's actually you. You say I accused you of not using scripture. Which you really didn't use any until now. I will tell you this, that Paul says that there isn't one who is righteous, there is not one that seeks God, that all are inexcusable. Which means how could a man of sin, understand what it is to be sinless? I don't expect you to understand, because I can't understand what is life without sin is myself. However Jesus promised to be the one to free us! What's impossible for men, is possible with God. In Him I believe in His promises in which I cannot perceive and what I cannot see.

Yes we are called to be perfect but if Paul couldn't achieve it then are you so self righteous to think you have achieved it? Or maybe Paul was deceived too and God allowed that to be apart of the Bible. 
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
How can a Man follow Christ unless he is perfect? How can a incomplete man who is not one with Christ follow?
John 17: 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Can you not see that if Christ is within us, and we are one with Christ, how is it even possible to sin?
To be made perfect in one! By those means one can know who is of Him, and who is not. For you to excuse it as something that can never be achieved (even the Apostle Paul) only means that you don't believe that God can mold a man to a complete perfection. Meaning you don't believe God can be entirely one within a man that He draws and calls.

As far as 1 Cor 1:10 you are doing isegesis not exegesis (isegesis is a big word for you putting your meaning into the text instead of pulling the meaning out of the text). When this verse is put into context with the surrounding verses it is clearly evident that Paul is writing to a true church that is having disagreements. He is urging them to work it out and find common ground. He is by no means saying that they are a false church because they don't agree on everything. 

You're claim in Isegesis (doing what you are accusing me of): "He is urging them to work it out and find common ground. He is by no means saying that they are a false church because they don't agree on everything."

My claim and its context: 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Paul was referring to the contentions/division that was being stirred based on those who cling to a leader who baptized them. Than Paul rebukes and corrects that by saying their isn't any division within Christ, that they should be perfectly joined together. He doesn't say however: "continue in you're disagreements, find common ground, its ok to disagree," as you claim. Your argument is full of fallacies solely because you're using "Isegesis" to claim Paul is simply urging for common ground. God is not the author of confusion or of disorder. The truth has no tolerance for confusion.
He preaches the exact opposite and exhorts the preaching of the gospel the sole truth.
"17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

In the end, those verse also proves that the division among denominations also are as false as those who cling to their baptismal leaders. They claim " I am of the Mormons" , "I am of Lakewood", "I am of Benny Hinn", "I am of the Jehovah Witnesses" and as you shout and claim to be the hero of VCI.
None of you claim to be of Christ because Christ is not divided.

Becoming what God wants us to be is a refining process much like gold. However if a man can purify gold, how can the God of all things not be able purify our entire body, soul, heart, and mind perfectly?
He promises to do so, so I believe it.

I pass judgement on you because I am like you. I just don't pretend to be something I know I am not.
Your words tell me alot about you. You're loving this debate? Are you not? I use to be like that, looking for the next battle and the next theological debate. Use all that I know to claim victory, as you seek to.
However I have learned how demonic it is. You fight for the defense of yourself and your own people, but not for Christ. You fight for your own dignity, but not for the gospel or the defense of the truth.
You fight for you, as I have many times over and over and maybe worse.

When I started talking to Victor and Paul, I too said: "Yet you pass judgement on my heart and motives that you cannot see placing yourself in the place of God."
I hated them, They made me so angry. They called me a angry man, full of carnal confidence. How can they know my heart, they never even met me. How can they judge what I do and what I am, they are not God.
However I have come to learn that the beam CAN be removed, and when it is, a man can help his brother to removes his. Victor and Paul went from being my foes to becoming loved ones and my friends. They have become people that I can call brothers because they told me the truth, that I do not know God as I claimed to. I hated them at first for that, but now my hate turned to love. However my hate exposed me.

1 John 4:20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
The whole message that comes from Victor and Paul that I can testify and agree with is that You do have a beam in your eye, though you claim not to have it. Your hate, pride, and lust oozes out of your words. You hate us and you don't even know it, or wouldn't even dare to admit it. You don't even know because you're blind. And as you continue in you're vain and carnal attempt to claim victory over whatever theological debate whether its against us or others its only proves how much you don't know God.
The lust for victory will be your downfall soon enough, as it was mine. I don't need to win this argument or desire to overcome you. I'm here to simply tell you the truth for your own sake and others though I don't believe you will receive it, but maybe someone will.

I don't condemn you, I'm simply telling you that you have a mask that hides your face. The Lord can see through it, no matter how much you hide it.

Continue if you must, It will only further expose you.

Dennison

Ryan Response below:

Well Dennison, that was a lot of words there. I'll attempt to address your entire email. First I'll say I guarantee I don't hate you. Quite the opposite actually. I wish for you to see the truth. This is part of what I do to fulfill Matt 28:19. I am no self proclaimed hero of anything. I don't say I am of Victory,
its just the church I found the Spirit moving powerfully so I stayed. My beliefs and doctrine did not come from victory they come from the careful study of the Word of God. I have stated the there are some points of theology where I differ from victory. I cannot deny the spirit moving powerfully. This leads me to my next point. You make a lot of assumptions without actually checking to see if they are true. For example you said that people come to our church and are healed and set free then leave and go back to their sin. Then we get a new wave of believers. This could not be further from the truth. First they come as sinners of all types they are cleaned up healed and set free and they get plugged in and serve in some capacity in the church and continue to mature as believers. Our growth is upon the previous growth which is on the previous and so forth. Sure there might be the odd one who goes back but the majority don't. You must think I am new at this or haven't been doing this for very long. By making these presumptions you must think that you are more experienced at it than I. Maybe you did it longer than I have maybe not but I have certainly been doing it long enough for see this cycle you speak of to occur and it hasn't. Don't minimize or downplay something to which you have not verified.

I do like intellectual discourse but not for the sake of winning but for the purpose of finding the truth. I'm willing to eat my words if you can properly divide the Word and show me I'm wrong but so far you have not done that. I engaged you to see if I could find any truth in what you teach. You don't know me at all. You are not me. I am just doing my best to champion the cause of Christ He is the Hero. I took 5 years of my life off to study and dedicate myself to the word and to how to properly divide it. Ever since I have continued to glean as much as I can from it. I love the Word.

As far as your comment about the one who rapes and kills. You don't see my heart only God can see anyone's heart. When you say you see my heart you put yourself in the place of God. I am just as guilty of sin as you are, as everyone according to the Bible. Lying is as equally deserving of Gods judgement as raping or killing on judgement day. It is up to God to judge true repentance. As far as what the bible says raping and murdering are not the unpardonable sin. Any sin is equally covered by the blood of Christ. Your use of Acts 19:15 is irrelevant unless you were communicating with evil spirits and they told you someone who rapes or kills isn't of God. It seems as though you wanted to insert scripture but it doesn't even pertain to the same line of thinking. Of course evil Spirits know the difference.

In regards to your claims about Paul and his sin, you quite obviously don't understand the contrast between the flesh and the spirit. Study it some more. Romans is a very difficult book to exegete but pray about it and you will see the flesh, our mortal body, is always bound by the law of sin and death and is not the part that gets set free. There is a battle within everyone who becomes born again. Being "born again" means the spirit comes alive and is contrary to the flesh. Once the spirit man is alive God doesn't see the flesh man anymore. It is impossible for our spirit man to sin but it is possible for the flesh man to continue to sin. It's all there in Romans just look for it. Romans 6:22 which you quoted means we are free from the power of sin. It means it no longer condemns us. It means we don't get the punishment we deserve. Our bodies will still die and be burned but we get new, sinless bodies. It means we have a covering that is the righteousness of Christ. We wear it like a garment that covers the filthy rags, which are our "good deeds" Is 64:6. It doesn't mean that it restrains us from sinning. Picture a white cloth, which will represent you and I. Is 1:18 says that the color of our sins is red. So to represent sin we will make red dots on the cloth. When we repent Jesus blood covers our sins. So to illustrate that we will dip the spotted rag into blood. What happens is you can't see the sin anymore because it's all red. God therefore only sees the blood of Christ when He looks at us. Our identity is now found in Christ not the old flesh man. This was foreshadowed when the Jews were in Egypt and they had to put lambs blood on the lintel of the doorway to their house. Romans 7 shows us the difference, it lays out what the flesh is and what the our spiritually alive inner man is. It is clear the flesh is under the law of sin and death. It says the wages of sin is death. Does not your physical body die? It gets death because it has sin in it and as Paul says there nothing good that dwells in the flesh. It gets death because it is under the law of sin and death. Those who become alive spiritually get a new part of who they are. It becomes their identity instead of the flesh. A part that will never die because it doesn't sin. A part that wages war against the flesh. The flesh wants to sin the spirit does not. This is what Paul means when he says I don't do what I want and I do what I don't want to do. Sometimes the flesh wins despite the spirits desire. Rom 7:25 says His mind serves the law of God but his flesh serves the law of sin.

The reason I say no one will reach sinless perfection is not because God lacks ability, of course He is capable. The problem is us, God allows Himself to be limited by us, that is part of giving us free will. He does not force us. There is no one who has the will power to completely free the flesh of sin.

I'm not sure how you can quote Romans 7:16-18 and say that Paul didn't continue to sin. He says there is nothing good in his flesh and he does not find how to perform what is good. He is speaking in the present tense and he is obviously dealing with sin. He is expressing his frustration possibly because he may have just blown it.

1 Jn 3:8-10 is a parallel passage to Romans 7. I don't sin because my I am not my flesh. My flesh sins but that is no longer who I am. These verses add something to the mix. Notice the word practice that is used in v8 and again in v10. Practice is something we do when we dedicate ourselves to something. It is something we do to get better at things. We practice deliberately and constantly. If you do something once and stop its not practice. Practice is on going, a path you take. The Bible is clear we cannot serve two masters. So as these verses say we are either practising righteousness or practising evil. Practicing evil is what condemns a person, practising righteousness is the mark of a true believer. This shows which man has won in our lives the flesh man or the spirit man.

Joel you seem like a guy who can be reasonable. You say you don't know Him, but you know of Him and you know what isn't. If you don't know Him it is impossible to know what isn't of Him. Secondly get to know Him. If you live in Lethbridge pastor Kelly can help you. I live a long way from Lethbridge but I know pastor Kelly is a powerful man of God. He will help you to truly know God. I know Him His Spirit leads me in all my ways. I can see by the Spirit that the "Path of Truth" is leading you away from that which is true. When you do get to know Him you will become alive spiritually and get a new identity. Then The Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth. If you truly don't care if you "win" on "loose" the "debate," let truth win.

Ryan

Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
Proverbs 15:10
Ryan,
More words than I originally intended. You have switched masks now. You can't guarantee me what you have no control over. It's simple if you hate what I have to say than you also hate what I know and the path i'm taking. You hate correction. You don't need to say that you are a hero of VCI, your intent and attitude say other wise.

Look as we are communicating, we have to get a couple of things clear. You say things I haven't said and misrepresent many things I do say. You are very conceited about the use of hermeneutics, however fail to use it correctly yourself when it comes to my statements. You said that I claimed: "you said that people come to our church and are healed and set free then leave and go back to their sin. Then we get a new wave of believers. "
That's not what I said. What I said is the following: "I was a leader too until I learned no matter what that these people will continue on in a never ending cycle of being "healed" and than continuing on doing the same sins all over again. And I along with them, there was no change other than what we pretended to be at Church." I told you about my own experience. In which I also said: "In which you will experience soon enough when you have a new set of 'believers' replacing those who left." My whole point is that you will go through what I went through soon enough, so therefore I have no need to check anything. Those people who are in your church currently follow a false Christ, and only to be set free from one bondage to be taken by a worse kind of bondage. It's no different from sinners who live carelessly drinking poison and knowing it. However the latter is worse, these people drink poison and wipe their months and say they have done nothing wrong. They are simply switching one trap for another. They are not free, they are still imprisoned in a fantasy where they truly believe they are clean and doing God's work when they know Him not. Your Church is no different from the the theatrical representation of the "Matrix" where people are "plugged in and serve in some capacity in the church...". In the end when it comes to you interpreting my words, you have erred.

"its just the church I found the Spirit moving powerfully so I stayed. My beliefs and doctrine did not come from victory they come from the careful study of the Word of God. I have stated the there are some points of theology where I differ from victory. I cannot deny the spirit moving powerfully."
I know of the Spirit you speak of, it's not God. I use to think so, but I have come to find out it isn't. I too, like you went through a era where I would search for evidence of the spirit moving in different Churches in search of where God would have me next, or where He is. However I'm thankful because of that experience I have come to learn that this Spirit you "cannot deny" isn't God. You have been deceived like I once have been. What is it about Victory that makes you even think that God dwells there? Give me your substance? Where as mentioning again that you are in disagreement with their theology means that you follow a God of confusion. Since you didn't respond to my contention in reference to 1 Cor 1:10 I will than mark that you conceded your point.

"You must think I am new at this or haven't been doing this for very long. By making these presumptions you must think that you are more experienced at it than I. Maybe you did it longer than I have maybe not but I have certainly been doing it long enough for see this cycle you speak of to occur and it hasn't. Don't minimize or downplay something to which you have not verified."
Assuming is a foolish thing, rather than assume why don't you ask? Since you assumed it only further implicates your carnal confidence and your failure to discern ones intent. ("You think I am new at this" "you are more experienced at it than I" "Maybe you did it longer" "Don't minimize or downplay") Someone who is secure in what they know, don't easily loose themselves in vague attempts to sale themselves. Why not say what's truly in your heart like: "You don't know me, how can you underestimate me? I've done this long enough to know better. You think your better than me? even if you are don't shrug off my experience!"
You sound like a child, a very lost ignorant child, but not a child of God. Your responses represent you attempting to defend your ego and pride. As I warned you: "continue if you must, it will only further expose you." When it comes to verifying all I said before I will soon enough be sharing a couple of things with you.

"I do like intellectual discourse but not for the sake of winning but for the purpose of finding the truth. I'm willing to eat my words if you can properly divide the Word and show me I'm wrong but so far you have not done that. I engaged you to see if I could find any truth in what you teach. You don't know me at all. You are not me. I am just doing my best to champion the cause of Christ He is the Hero. I took 5 years of my life off to study and dedicate myself to the word and to how to properly divide it. Ever since I have continued to glean as much as I can from it. I love the Word."
You love your own words, not the Word of God. You say all of this right after defending your ego. Hopefully you have eaten your words about my 1 Cor 10 contention since you've made no response of it. The issue here isn't about being wrong or right, or about doctrines, or about any other debate. Only for the sake of others and yourself is needed for open rebuke when it comes to these matters. However the prime importance is to let you know whether you accept it or not, that you have been drinking poison from the fountains of deceit. That you know not God as you assume to know Him. That's what is important here. Ryan you are so right when you say I have never known you in person, or have met you. However the scriptures declare in Matthew 7:20: "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." I have no need to know you in person, when your words expose you. I do know you, and I'm definitely not you however we are not that much different. Your letters and your words are overflowed with your persona and your hearts intent. The scripture states that: Matthew 15:18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man." The words on my screen come from your fingertips. Fingertips writes whats on your carnal thoughts. Your carnal thoughts comes from the very depths of your heart which expresses exactly who you are. To further expose you, you claim Christ is a hero however boasting about how you dedicated 5 years of your life to the "word". You will never find any one who knows God to boast about their "studies" as if that mattered. The scribes and pharisees had all the content in their possession and were so far away from the truth. You can dedicate all your life to the scriptures yet you will only be "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3:7

"As far as your comment about the one who rapes and kills. You don't see my heart only God can see anyone's heart. When you say you see my heart you put yourself in the place of God. I am just as guilty of sin as you are, as everyone according to the Bible. Lying is as equally deserving of Gods judgement as raping or killing on judgement day. It is up to God to judge true repentance. As far as what the bible says raping and murdering are not the unpardonable sin. Any sin is equally covered by the blood of Christ. Your use of Acts 19:15 is irrelevant unless you were communicating with evil spirits and they told you someone who rapes or kills isn't of God. It seems as though you wanted to insert scripture but it doesn't even pertain to the same line of thinking. Of course evil Spirits know the difference. "
More examples of your poor interpretation skills. What I said is: "If a man just finished raping and killing innocent people yet claims to be God's servant is he not a liar?" Not only did you not answer my question, you misrepresented what I said. As I mentioned previously I know you and I am aware of your hearts intent because of what you reveal through your words. Therefore I judge you based on what you expose about yourself. Regardless, the scriptures disagree with you because I can discover who you are by your fruits. In other words the only reason why I mentioned this example is because it's OBVIOUS that a man is a liar if he claims to be Gods servant when he rapes and murders people. Simple. Your point is moot. Act 19:15 simply proves that even evil spirits can discern those who are impostors. If a man is claiming to be of God yet hasn't been sent by God than he is a false prophet.

"The flesh wants to sin the spirit does not. This is what Paul means when he says I don't do what I want and I do what I don't want to do. Sometimes the flesh wins despite the spirits desire.
The reason I say no one will reach sinless perfection is not because God lacks ability, of course He is capable. The problem is us, God allows Himself to be limited by us, that is part of giving us free will. He does not force us. There is no one who has the will power to completely free the flesh of sin.
1 Jn 3:8-10 is a parallel passage to Romans 7. I don't sin because my I am not my flesh. My flesh sins but that is no longer who I am. These verses add something to the mix. Notice the word practice that is used in v8 and again in v10. Practice is something we do when we dedicate ourselves to something."
I might as well tackle all of these at once since they all relate. You are in great error Ryan. One thing I noticed is that you failed to respond to this point as well: John 17: 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
"Can you not see that if Christ is within us, and we are one with Christ, how is it even possible to sin?
To be made perfect in one! By those means one can know who is of Him, and who is not."
How can one be one with Christ and yet still sin? You boast about studying the bible yet you believe in a term that doesn't exist in the scriptures. Freewill doesn't exist, if so than why couldn't Jonah simply runaway from the Lord, or why did Pharaoh have his heart hardened? The Apostle Paul also quotes that there isn't one that seeks the Lord and there not one that is righteous. All Glory goes to God because He is the Sovereign Lord who can open and hardened hearts, and draw all men in their due time. (Read: http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Read 1 John again: "(9) Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."
IF you are born of God, you cannot sin. Period. In the end I have proven that your hermeneutical skills betray you. You have much to unlearn like I once had to unlearn. To revolve your whole interpretation on a particular word only to lose the whole meaning by overlooking the context of the scripture.

To add further. IF you notice in everything I write I have substance, and the explanation to my substance to give warrant to my contentions. You have misinterpreted not only scripture but my words as well. Not only have you refused to answer important questions but have also misrepresented my quotes and have put words in my mouth. You have made many fallacies in your points only to fail using proper hermeneutical skills to check your context of scripture. Your studies are full of vanity, it profits you nothing.

"Joel you seem like a guy who can be reasonable. You say you don't know Him, but you know of Him and you know what isn't. If you don't know Him it is impossible to know what isn't of Him. Secondly get to know Him. If you live in Lethbridge pastor Kelly can help you. I live a long way from Lethbridge but I know pastor Kelly is a powerful man of God. He will help you to truly know God. I know Him His Spirit leads me in all my ways. I can see by the Spirit that the "Path of Truth" is leading you away from that which is true. When you do get to know Him you will become alive spiritually and get a new identity. Then The Holy Spirit will guide you to the truth. If you truly don't care if you "win" on "loose" the "debate," let truth win."
You say it is impossible scriptures record however a Perfect man who knew of God, but now knows Him by seeing Him.
Job 42:5I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Job didn't know God however was counted to be a righteous man who followed Gods commandments. Where in the end, now that God revealed Himself to Job, now he knows. The scriptures also declare that: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29
I haven't seen Christ, or claim to know Him. However I have seen how the Lord has put His hand over my life and has lead me to this path. I didn't choose it, nor did I ever expect to do half of things I have done up to now. I would have never imagined to be where I am today. Not more than 5 years ago in Texas, I was a different person, much like you. Witnessing the Spirit move within the Churches and though (like you) not claiming to be a hero to any one church yet attending or staying. I served the church I went to and serve the people of there. I preached with passion and sought to share the gospel with everyone! told everyone about freewill, the trinity, about hell, and etc. I use to even debate much like you are now. The reason I see you for what you are is because I have been where you are, and even more so Victor and Paul. However you are so wrong when you say that the Path of Truth is leading me away from the truth. 5 years ago in Texas, I started to see how menacing the church actually is. I noticed that no matter what sin I committed in my private life, that the Pastor just gave me more and more work to do. I also noticed that while I yet was sinning that the people came to adore me more, and more. I hated it and yet loved it. There was that part that told, how is it that this man claims to speak to God yet not see me? The people are deceived to. They see me like angel yet know nothing of my life. However I also noticed that they do the same. The Church as just full of hypocrites and liars much like myself. I haven't changed, no matter how many times I felt the "spirit moving". The fruits were not there. We all did good deeds, but that mattered not. When I left the church and went to many others where I came across the same dilemma. I came to a point where the Lord had me question many things I use to believe such as doctrines of Freewill, trinity, and etc. AT first I thought I was crazy because I was the only one coming to understand these things. Long story short, when I met Victor and Paul they were the only ones to truly see me behind my mask. I have met many Pastors, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, and even teachers who all love me and tell me many goods much like you're telling me "I'm a reasonable person". (Unknowingly to you are being used by Satan in tempting me in such things in that manner.) However when I met Victor and Paul they have seen right through my bullshit of a mask that everyone has adored and seen right through me. I know they are of the Lord because they can see my carnality. At first as I mentioned before I hated them for exposing me. However now I am so thankful that they did, because it didn't matter how much we agreed on doctrine, what mattered is whether I truly knew the Lord or not. I once thought I did, now I know I don't. Though I may not know Christ, not only do I know of Him, but I believe in Him! I really believe and I have faith that He is the risen Lord who will free us from sin. He has lead me here where now I can know the difference between what is of Him and what is not.

The reason I can see you is because you are much like me, however I admit what I am where as you do not. Ryan look how your tone in your speech quickly changed. How quickly you have come to offer help once I started to appease you as a "reasonable man". Why would I want anything to do with the likes of a self proclaimed pastor such as Kelly? Where was this helpful tone when it comes to the likes of Victor and Paul? The Spirit that leads you is the Father of lies and seduction, Satan.

Confused men believe that truth can be won. The Truth silences all debate, because no one can debate the truth.
Ryan, your mask has been broken. We see you. You have been measured, weighed, and exposed.
You are naked before the eyes of the Lord who calls all men to repent.

Dennison


John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Ryan,

Are you able to show us where in the Bible The Lord calls himself a hero?

This is what I see, the religious of the world eat out the same bag of Doritos and can not smell the stench on each others breath, when The Lord removes one from eating lies and straightens them out, they can smell Doritos and know to stay away.

Dan Lysthauge

Reply from Ryan Below:
You are mistaken you are the one being corrected. As far as you 1 Cor 1:10 point. You added another division to the many that are out there. But yours if false. As far as his dialogue I am quitting for two reasons 1. The lack of integrity on the part of the path of truth for manipulating my private correspondence and posting it on a public forum. If there is any integrity there it will be removed. 2. I have clearly shown you using excellent hermeneutics that you are wrong and follow the prince of this world. All your points are in error but I will not waste anymore time if you are not going to listen. As far as conceding points I will assume as you did that the points of mine that have not been addressed you have conceded.

Good bye.

Ryan

2nd Reply from Ryan Below:

One more thing. This spirit has been pressing on my heart to say after my last email. You say you don't know Him. That makes all your points invalid. How can you try to argue the truth when you don't know Him that is the truth. Joel Jesus is the truth Jn 14:6. You cannot know one without the other because they are the same thing. You are looking at the scripture with mans eyes not being led by Him that is the truth. How can you trust a word you say. I do know Him he leads me as I write. He shows me the deeper things of the truth.

Ryan

Ryan,

You don't bring to light any valid arguments other than tangents and unwarranted claims. I've stated many examples where you twisted my words and I have also proven how you twist scripture as well.
1. It's only a lack of integrity if I didn't tell you. I did tell you that I posted my reply and what I'm replying to on the forum, where you didn't make any response about it. I even shared the link with you. What is there to be afraid of? I told you that this is for your sake and others. Public rebuke is necessary.

2. Look your statement is fallacy. Just because you say you proved so, doesn't make it so. I listened to and read all your points and responded to all your points.
All your points lack any true hermeneutics, or understanding of scripture. In my past emails, I haven't boasted or even tried to imply that I'm right, or that I use "excellent hermeneutics". I rather concentrate on my points and what I'm trying to substantiate. You are full of it, and full in to your ego. The reason you can't continue this dialogue because you can't handle the truth. Its ok, go on your way to self destruction. Your full of strawman arguments which is also a debate fallacy.

All you're looking for in regards to your "spirit of error" is a life line. Your point is a debate fallacy called ad hominem. Which means since you can't address my valid contentions you rather say all my contentions are invalid because of the man. Attacking the man rather than addressing his points. Whether a godless person, or a man of God were to say the earth is round, doesn't make the statement any less true.
What you know comes from Satan, I know because I was deceived with the same lies long ago. You don't know God Ryan, you never have. The Lord is here telling you that you don't know Him by the means of one who doesn't know Him, and by two others who do know Him.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That day is today. You are full of iniquity, depart and be on your way.

Dennison

Ryan,

Your fruits show us that you don't know the Lord. If you did, you would understand the following scriptures and would come out from Mystery Babylon(all religions).

Romans 12-14
12 Therefore, indeed, in order that He
might sanctify the people by His own blood,
Jesus suffered outside the gate.
13 Therefore let us go forth to Him outside
the camp bearing His reproach.
14 For we do not have here a continuing
city, but we seek the city coming.

Rev 18:1-4
1 And after these things I saw another
angel coming down out of Heaven having
great authority, and the earth was lighted
up from his glory.
2 And he cried in a strong, great voice,
saying, Babylon the great has fallen! It has fallen,
and it has become a dwelling place
of demons, and a prison of every unclean
spirit, and a prison of every unclean bird,
and hated,
3 because of the wine of the anger of her
fornication which all the nations have
drunk, even the kings of the earth have committed
fornication with her; and the merchants
of the earth became rich from the
power of her luxury.
4 And I heard another voice out of Heaven
saying, My people, come out of her, that
you may not share in her sins, and that you
may not receive of her plagues;

Eric C.