How Do You Obey without the Spirit?

[Sara V Schmidt]

A recent letter sent:

From: Emmanuel
Sent: November-28-14 1:27 PM
To: Victor Hafichuk; Paul Cohen
Subject: What are they to do?

Can you answer, or direct me to any wiritngs on your website which answers the following question:

For the ones who do not have the Spirit of God, what option do they have? For example, one can overcome temptation psychologically/morally, but if one doesn't have God's Spirit, they have no choice but to overcome psychologically/morally. So what are they to do? For those who have not yet been delivered from sin it would appear that they have two options, when faced with temptation: A) Submit to it B) Overcome it through their own strength.

It seems that they (without His Spirit) are condemned to living in lawlessness. But as 2 Thess 2:10 says: 'They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved'; so doesn't that indicate that it's a choice they can make as to whether to stay in darkness or step into the light.

I do hope you understand what i'm trying to say.

Also, I shall in due course share with you a couple of the things that I believe have been revealed to me.

Manny.



From: Victor Hafichuk
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 7:50 AM
To: Manny
Cc: Paul Cohen
Subject: Re: What are they to do?

“But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His” (Romans 8:9 MKJV).

“He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:12 MKJV).

1 John 1:6-10 MKJV
(6) If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
(7) But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

Deuteronomy 30:1-20 MKJV
(1) And it shall be when all these things have come on you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and when you shall call them to mind among all the nations where the LORD your God has driven you,
(2) and shall return to the LORD your God and shall obey His voice according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, with all your heart, and with all your soul,
(3) then the LORD your God will turn your captivity. And He will have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you.
(4) If you are driven out into the outermost parts of the heavens, the LORD your God will gather you from there, and He will bring you from there.
(5) And the LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. And He will do you good, and multiply you above your fathers.
(6) And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your seed, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
(7) And the LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those that hate you, who persecuted you.
(8) And you shall return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all His commandments which I command you today.
(9) And the LORD your God will make you have plenty in every work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your land, for good. For the LORD will again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your fathers;
(10) for you shall listen to the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the Law, and if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(11) For this commandment which I command you today is not hidden from you, neither is it far off.
(12) It is not in Heaven, that you should say, Who shall go up for us to Heaven, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and do it?
(13) Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, Who shall go over the sea for us to the region beyond the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and do it?
(14) But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it.
(15) Behold! I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,
(16) in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, so that you may live and multiply. And the LORD your God shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it.
(17) But if you turn away your heart, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
(18) I declare to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days on the land where you pass over Jordan to go to possess it.
(19) I call Heaven and earth to record today against you. I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore, choose life, so that both you and your seed may live,
(20) so that you may love the LORD your God, and that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him. For He is your life and the length of your days, so that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give it to them.

As for writings on our site that may help you, read How One Is Saved and the suggested teachings linked at the end of the paper, particularly the first six.

Victor

[William Woeger]

The answer to Manny's question concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:10: "so doesn't that indicate that it's a choice they can make as to whether to stay in darkness or step into the light."

2 Thessalonians 2:10 "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved"
and the Scripture you gave, Victor, in particular Deuteronomy 30:14 "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it."

Seems to me, to answer Manny's question, be a "yes". If the Lord gives us to choose His way vs our way.. then... He gave us grace to know His way.. and graced us with power to choose His way.

I have often thought.. "our own strength" or "our own brain power" or "our own moral conviction". But is it ours? Do we have free will?

I believe it has become clear to me that nothing originates with us. Even our thoughts. I don't sit here and say to myself, "okay, I am going to create and think my next thought." But my next thought, my next options to choose, my next desire, come up within me... seemingly from outside unseen (and perhaps seen) influences.

Faith is a gift of God. To choose to obey; to have the desire and power to make the choice.. is an ability that God would grant one to have. The Lord could very well make me unable to do/choose anything. The Lord could give me to the dirt.. unable to do anything.. its surly where I belong.

[Victor Hafichuk]

This is related to the question you asked last Sabbath, William, right? Am I going in circles here with my answer to this question? Are we trying to intellectually understand something that isn’t understood by the carnal mind?

I've used this illustration many times: If a potter forms a clay vessel on his wheel, no problem; the vessel will never be anything but clay shaped into some inanimate object the potter will use or sell. But we’re dealing with No Ordinary Potter and He’s making no ordinary vessels. He is forming a vessel in His Own Image. He’s shaping Himself on that wheel:

“Behold what manner of charity [love] the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called and should be the sons of God. Therefore the world knoweth not us, because it knew not Him. Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when He shall appear we shall be like to Him: because we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:1-2 DRB). As His sons, we become very much as Him.

(I quote this DRB translation because he chooses the term “sons” rather than the term “children” that all my other e-Sword translations use (not that “children” is wrong). Darby’s choice seems to bring home the point more clearly in our contemporary language that as human sons, we grow up to be in the likeness of our fathers in general respect. The term “children” is often used more loosely.)

Now what of this mystery of what is the part of the clay and of the Potter? Who does what? Just how and when are we responsible? What does the Lord require of us? Can we do this or that? True, the clay can’t do or be anything or take any shape on its own unless the potter makes it so. But here’s the difference: In our case, we as clay become the Potter! He IS shaping us into His image, and the way I see it, because we are a living lump of clay, not inanimate, our responsibility begins the moment He injects any of His likeness on to the scene. The moment He does anything with us, we have the power to respond, and for that reason, we become responsible. It is the case of the one talent given us to invest. As His Nature, His Life and Ability take place in us, we are called upon to obey. We are tried; we are tested; we are enabled, “here a little, there a little”:

“Whom shall He teach knowledge? And whom shall He make to understand doctrine? Those weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, there a little… (Isaiah 28:9-10 MKJV).

“…confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22 MKJV).

The perplexing part of this process to us is that we are living clay subjected to the process and begin to serve in whatever way enabled from the moment we are placed on the wheel. Therefore, He has His part; He enables us, bit by bit, and as He does so, it is our duty to repent, “go and sin no more,” to do good where called and to worship Him in spirit and in truth, right where we are, as we are, as we are enabled.

Cornelius (Acts 10, 11) didn't have the Spirit when he obeyed God and lived an exemplary life. And because his conduct was pleasing to God, Peter was sent to him to preach the Good News that he might be saved, he and his house. As the Scriptures say, "God gives the Holy Spirit to them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32).

Does that help? Obviously, this is a question nominal Christendom has wrestled with throughout the ages. The solution is simple enough: When the heart genuinely seeks after God to do His will, it will be done. And we don't need to be too concerned as to how it started or how one is enabled to seek.

With hindsight, I had no idea what was going on with me as I searched for God and tried to obey Him, but I know it all had to happen as it did. I had to fail and see my need for Him. He succeeded, having to fulfil my need. "He paid a debt He did not owe...I owed a debt I could not pay...."

Bless the Lord...He paid it! In one sense, I can now say I'm debt free, but am I? When He pays our debt, we are automatically indebted to all men, that they might also be saved; the members of His Body enter the work and continue it with the Head.

\/

[William Woeger]

Hello Victor,

"The solution is simple enough: When the heart genuinely seeks after God to do His will, it will be done. And we don't need to be too concerned as to how it started or how one is enabled to seek."

Yes, simple enough.

I may have more to say later, but yes, for now, simple enough. and Thank You Lord!

[Paul Cohen]

You’re right, William. We’re given the wherewithal by God and His Word to do His will. We have no excuse, which is why we all belong to the dirt that we are, out of which He raises us. And though men walk in independence and rebellion, He still is in charge:

“A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps” (Proverbs 16:9 KJV).

[Emmanuel Okpanachi]

'Are we trying to intellectually understand something that isn’t understood by the carnal mind? '

I think this is what I've been trying to do, with the question I proposed to you. And I would say that the fact that I've been trying indicates that it has been a carnal effort.

Your answer in the other topic of 'Self-Righteousness', has made it more clear to me that there is nothing but fruitless results - in trying to understand the things of God - through intellectual thought.

But what a kind of Jekyll and Hyde we are...? We live in paradoxical disparity.

We have our intellectual, carnal mind co-existing with the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16)...is it not?

Upon being given the mind of Christ, why is there still the retention of this inferior (much inferior) intellectual mind...? I do not think that such a mind would be needed anymore, when one has the mind of Christ. Is the mind of Christ not sufficient to do all the things the intellectual mind does? Is God intellectual?

Or perhaps it's not a case of spiritual vs intellectual. But spiritual vs carnality.

But carnality is indelibly and inextricably attatched - it seems - to our intellectual mind.

I just wonder...why there needs to be the dual existence of the spiritual and the carnal/intellectual?

[Victor Hafichuk]

William received the answer to your quandary, Manny:

I woke up in the middle of the night.. and thought, "Just do good and thank God you can. Don't worry about trying to understand."

The sum total of the work of God, the Two Great Commandments.

"He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you but to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8 MKJV).

[Paul Cohen]

Amen; it's not complicated: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep His commandments. For this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it is good, or whether evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 MKJV).

If it's our duty, you can be sure God's grace is available.

[Joe Vonheeder]

Amazing. If we want to obey it's because the Lord has already given us the wherewithal to do so. So, if we do not obey, it is not because the Lord didn't provide the strength (He did), or the desire (He did), but because we chose to give in to our lusts. He always provides a way out, the way out was always there...we just have to choose to take it. We are left with no excuse, and the Lord knows we like to make excuses. ("Who shall ascend to Heaven...?") Is that about what it amounts to?

"Wherewithal"...good word to describe the Lord's grace to overcome.

[Lynda Christopher Webb]

WoW. What wisdom, to put all those Scripture references together! I'm reeling from those words in them! Can anyone give a simpler <- answer of the understanding of this knowledge? HELP. lynda