The Path of Truth Forum

HOW DARE YOU TALK AGAINST GODS ANOINTED? DAVID W AND CARTER C Isiah WAS SAWED IN HALF AND ALL THE DISCIPLES EXCEPT jOHN DIED HORRIBLY, NOT TO MENTION ALL THE CHRISTIANS THAT ARE BEING MURDERED FOR THE BELIEF IN CHRIST AT THIS TIME HORRIBLY MURDERED, REPENT! LET GOD BE JUDGE IM DONE

The martyrdom of the Lord's servants, such as reported of Isaiah and recorded in the Scriptures of James and Stephen, were glorious deaths at the hands of those directly opposed to the Truth. David Wilkerson's death wasn't so - he died in car accident, killed by a stranger who knew nothing of David. It was a death like those on whom the tower in Siloam fell, of which Jesus said:

“Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were sinners above all men who lived in Jerusalem? I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:4-5 MKJV).

Why can't you see these things, June? Because you're blinded by sin.

Religion Meets Reality

Paul and Victor

you mis understood me i was defending that christians die horribly as well, the guy before me said that David did something wrong, you need to go re read that post, i defended DAvid and loved him since i was 9, how dare you tell me im blinded by sin. dont write me back to tell me your sorry,

June, we did not misunderstand you, but you misunderstood us, or worse, disagreed with us. You suggest Christians walking in faith die tragic deaths. No such testimony, doctrine, or example occurs in Scripture or life experience; God is Faithful to keep His faithful. You make God a liar because you are a liar. You have nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord Jesus Christ.

You make our case by defending David Wilkerson, don't you? If by his testimony, David leads people to believe faithful followers of the Lord die tragically, by “accident” or otherwise, as David did, then he spreads lies about God, Who is found to not be Sovereign Lord of all, after all, which is falsehood.

You are in witchcraft, June. Confess it or perish as did your hero.

Victor and Paul

So if a person who says they are a Christian dies a horrible death then they really weren’t a Christian. Is that what you are saying?? Please explain

Hi Anne,

In your question you aren't clear about a couple things. We aren't saying a horrible death means one isn't a believer. What about the Lord Jesus Christ, crucified on a cross? And then there are those that believed on Him - Stephen, who was stoned, or James, who was killed by the sword, and the other accounts in the Scriptures. We know these died in, and as a result of, genuine faith, and not just because it is written in the Bible, but because we share in the same gift of faith they received.

Also, one can be a believer at some point, a "Christian" if you will, turn back to the world, and there's no question such a decision is highly likely to include a horrible death, seeing how it's being considered worse than death by stoning:

Hebrews 10:28-29 MKJV
(28) He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.
(29) Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy of punishment, the one who has trampled the Son of God, and who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

What could be worse than being stoned to death? Aside from a variety of other types of death, what about being kept alive, yet in a place of torment, be it in conscience, or in body or soul, and such that you can't escape?

I take your double questions marks ("??") to mean you aren't asking, but gasping at what you are hearing. Can you show us an example in the Scriptures, or elsewhere, that proves otherwise? There are multitudes of so-called Christians who take upon themselves His Name in vain, perish by the thousands every day in all sorts of tragic ways (whether suddenly and prematurely, or over time, even unto old age). Had there been repentance, it wouldn't have happened. Isn't this exactly what the Lord said?

Luke 13:1-5 MKJV
(1) And some were present at the same time reporting to Him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
(2) And answering, Jesus said to them, Do you suppose that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans because they suffered such things?
(3) I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
(4) Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were sinners above all men who lived in Jerusalem?
(5) I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Here are some additional Scriptures:

"And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of the Lord your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am the Lord who heals you" (Exodus 15:26 MKJV).

"As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come" (Proverbs 26:2 KJV).

"For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly" (Psalms 84:11 KJV).


Job 36:5-14 MKJV
(5) Behold, God is mighty, and does not despise; He is mighty in strength of heart.
(6) He will not keep alive one who is wicked, but gives right to the afflicted.
(7) He withdraws not His eyes from the righteous, but they are like kings on the throne; yes, He causes them to sit forever, and they are very high.
(8) And if they are bound in chains, and are held in cords of affliction,
(9) then He shows them their work, and their sins, that they have behaved themselves proudly.
(10) He also opens their ears to teaching, and commands that they return from iniquity.
(11) If they obey and serve Him, they shall spend their days in blessedness, and their years in pleasures.
(12) But if they do not obey, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
(13) But the ungodly in heart heap up wrath; they cry not when He binds them.
(14) Their soul dies in youth, and their life ends among the sodomites.

Also, you can read the following paper:

Do Faithful Christians Die from Terrible Diseases?

Ronnie

I am not accepting your interpretation of Scripture...#1 My mom was a faithful Christian and she died of cancer she was in pain and could hardly breath at the end.
#2 God's Word is clear in it tells us in Matthew 5:43-45 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
#3 Romans 9:17-20 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
Exodus 33:18 Moses pleads with God, “Show me thy glory!” And God answers, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name, Yahweh. And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy to whom I will show mercy.”
#4 Lastly I would ask how can man know how God has or has not been glorified by a persons death? You don't know who may have been saved through Mr. Wilkerson's death...no matter how he died. Please don't put God in a box it's unbecoming for one of His saints to do so.

2 Kings 13:14 Elisha died of a sickness which you might say was not a disease, but the problem is The Strong's Comprehensive Concordance of the Bible uses the same reference number for sickness and disease. I don't think Elisha who had a double portion of the Holy Spirit was somehow not of God.

Anne, Elisha's sickness is explained in the paper linked here. http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... ealing.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Please read more about that here and Ctrl+F for "Elisha"

#1 My mom was a faithful Christian and she died of cancer she was in pain and could hardly breath at the end.

Read this and apply the questions to yourself and what you know of your mother http://www.thepathoftruth.com/the-issue ... istian.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Did she fulfill everything? Do you?

#4 Lastly I would ask how can man know how God has or has not been glorified by a persons death? You don't know who may have been saved through Mr. Wilkerson's death...no matter how he died.

Have you seen this paper on Wilkerson? http://www.thepathoftruth.com/false-tea ... kerson.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Besides, how does it glorify God for one of His children to die in a car crash? I don't see it. Nothing in the Word supports the idea of "accidents" upon His saints glorifying Him. In fact, Jesus Christ said that such things happen to sinners.

Luke 13:4-5 MKJV
(4)  Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were sinners above all men who lived in Jerusalem?
(5)  I tell you, No. But unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

As for #3 and #4, you should note that God has promised health to those faithful. Yes, God discriminates on who He grants grace, but He has great things for those that obey and believe Him like so:

Psalms 103:1-4 MKJV
(1)  A Psalm of David. Bless Jehovah, O my soul; and all that is within me, bless His holy name.
(2)  Bless Jehovah, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits;
(3)  who forgives all your iniquities; who heals all your diseases;
(4)  who redeems your life from ruin; who crowns you with loving-kindness and tender mercies;

Not "accepting" isn't good enough, Anne. You're just being stubborn. Regarding your mother, do we not have her fruit here on display in you? I believe so. You need to show us where we have misunderstood or wrongly applied the Scriptures.

In Matthew 5:43-45 the Lord is speaking of the attitude one has towards others, particularly their enemies. Would you say God "did good" (as you put forth) to Ananias and his wife Sapphira, when He struck them down dead for lying to Him?

Did God cause the "sun to rise" on Herod when He struck Herod so that he was eaten by worms and died? Highly likely, that was an ugly and painful death.

Was Paul “loving” his enemy (see below)?

Acts 13:8-11 MKJV
(8) But Elymas the conjurer (for so his name is, if translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.
(9) Then Saul (who is also Paul), filled with the Holy Spirit, set his eyes on him
(10) and said, O son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all craftiness, enemy of all righteousness, will you not stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?
(11) And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is on you. And you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a while. And immediately a mist and a darkness fell on him, and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

You quote Romans 9:17-20 to show that God does what He wills (and He does), which, according to you, would include things like death by cancer, horrible car accidents, mass shootings, and all of these without any onus on the ones suffering these things. You're essentially charging God with being an out of control schizophrenic. Consider verse 22:

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;" (Romans 9:22 MKJV).

You ask, "Lastly I would ask how can man know how God has or has not been glorified by a persons death?"

God is glorified either way, whether by sinners perishing as a result of disobeying His commandments, which magnifies His Law, or by those with faith enduring martyrdom. Ultimately, the only way man can truly know anything is by the Lord providing understanding.

Take for instance your last mention about Elisha. I don’t know what is going on there. I red God Heals Today, His Way and it speaks of that instance, which addresses your questions, and mine. And I agree with you, that Elisha was a man of God, not some prophet of Baal who was destroyed as a blasphemer.

Ronnie

Hi, Anne.

I see that you judge by the appearance and not by righteous judgment as the Lord commands His followers, those who believe:

“Do not judge according to sight, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24 MKJV).

So just what is “righteous” judgment? It is simply to determine reality by the Lord and believing His Word instead of trusting appearances, our senses, powers of reason, and taking men’s words as truth. What does the apostle Paul say about who is trustworthy?

“Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; as it is written, "That You might be justified in Your sayings, and will overcome when You are judged.” (Romans 3:4 MKJV).

Your argument is not with us but with the Lord Jesus and His Word.

“Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; as it is written, ‘That You might be justified in Your sayings, and will overcome when You are judged’”
(Romans 3:4 MKJV).

You say your mother “was a faithful Christian and she died of cancer she was in pain and could hardly breath at the end.”

According to the One you effectually call a liar and His Book a “pack of lies,” your mother died the death of a very wicked woman. She had nothing to do with the One she professed to believe on, nothing at all. Her death was not natural, it was not one of martyrdom and it wasn’t the death of one who surrendered it for the greater good or as a sacrifice to the Lord. It was the death of a wicked woman who brought consequences of unrepented sin upon herself. She thus forfeited any goodness God has in store for those who love Him:

“For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly” (Psalms 84:11 KJV).

Just tell me deliverance from the ravages of painful cancer death isn’t a good thing. Tell me cancer is a good thing. Is that what you told your mother? Is that what she taught you? Is that what your priest or pastor led you to believe? If any of these told you anything like this, they would be liars, calling Him Who Is Faithful and True a liar. How wicked is that?

I’m amazed at your darkness! The very Scriptures you submit to us in argument condemn your position and support ours. How can you possibly perceive that those Scriptures refute our doctrine? My, how people are in darkness and so lost, full of pain and sorrow. You wander the regions of Hell and Death, searching in vain for hope because you refuse to believe the Lord, the Light and Life of men.

Your example of Elisha is a very poor one to defend your mother’s and any other such death. For one, he didn’t suffer an ugly death as did your mother. Two, in desiring glory for himself, he offended, so there’s the sin that worked God’s wrath on him.

How so? When Elijah was about to be taken into Heaven, Elisha asked for an anointing double to what Elijah had. Now WHY would he do that if not for his own glory? Why did he wish to do a great prophet one better, or many times better?

But lo and behold, God gave him his request with many more miracles accredited to him than to Elijah, twice as many, I’m told. So far so good, huh? But while Elijah the faithful prophet was taken up in glory, Elisha, was brought down into a bed of humiliation – an appropriate judgment for someone who sought to aggrandize himself, don’t you think?

Still, God remained true to His decision to allow Elisha’s request for glory to be fulfilled. After Elisha’s death, God even brought a corpse to life that had touched Elisha’s dead bones. Not that it did Elisha any good then; he was dead and could no longer profit from the glory of God’s gift he had lusted for. No, he died the death of a sinner, of one who, unlike Elijah, had offended in self-seeking. God’s judgment is true.

Woman, how dare you call Jesus Christ a liar! How dare you defend sin and its ravages as though those are things of God and the lot of those who are faithful to Him! YOU are the liar.

Can there be any surprise on our part if you don’t accept “our” interpretation of Scripture? If you want to believe your mother and yourself instead of God, how could you possible agree with what the Bible clearly teaches?

You quote: “God's Word is clear in it tells us in Matthew 5:43-45 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

Why do you think your mother died such an ignominious death if not by unbelief and very disobedience to those words? How do you think you’ll escape the same judgment?

God has surely been merciful to the wicked, on occasion, yes, as you seem to argue, but He has also declared that you will surely reap what you sow:

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he also will reap” (Galatians 6:7 MKJV).

Because God is a just God, the opposite is also true. Man will not reap what he has not sown. Isn’t that only fair to declare? No?

As for the reference to Pharaoh, God set him up for destruction. Are you saying God set your mother up for destruction? You would be right! She perished as did the Pharaoh, didn’t she? And why did he perish? It was because he withstood God. That’s exactly why your mother perished as she did. Biblically, there’s no other explanation.

Isn’t it obvious that God determined to not show your mother mercy but was, in the end, a vessel of His wrath, despite her profession of faith? How can you argue?

You write, “Lastly I would ask how can man know how God has or has not been glorified by a persons death? You don't know who may have been saved through Mr. Wilkerson's death...no matter how he died.”

Did “Reverend” David Wilkerson or his clones teach you such claptrap so contrary to the Word of God? “How can a man know?” you ask. He can know by the Spirit of God and by the Word of God, that’s how! How is it you quote Scripture any way you like, “wresting them to your destruction” and not consider you pervert the things of God so dangerously and destructively? Here’s what brother John says about that, as do others:

“For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book” (Revelation 22:18-19 MKJV).

How do we know many didn’t stumble because they saw Wilkerson’s dreadful end? “Well, if that’s how God rewards a faithful servant, forget it! I’ll take my chances with the Devil!” Woman, must God kill a man to save one? How foolish your thinking! How stupid! How blasphemous! Anything to cherish the flesh.

Is it any wonder your mother and so many others professing faith in Christ die such deaths? By taking away from His Book, their part is taken out of the Book of Life and in adding to It, the plagues mentioned in It are added to them. It’s that simple, Ann.

Why don’t you repent, believe God and live? Because you’ve been damned, that’s why. You don’t have that option available to you now; it’s too late:

“He acting unjustly, let him still act unjustly. And the filthy, let him be filthy still. And the righteous, let him be righteous still. And the holy, let him be holy still” (Revelation 22:11 MKJV).

Victor, one angry servant of God who has tried to reach out to multitudes, but in vain. They are altogether blind, deaf, stupid, and dead-set on having their own way. So, to the fires you go, Anne. Only there will you know His cure in the end.

Ok so by your interpretation all those who die a horrible diseased death does not belong to Him and therefore does not enter Heaven. Those infants and young children in cancer wards that die have no chance then. If you end up with a disease or you die in an accident you’ll end up in hell then also.

Anne, have you red:

http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

That section will answer all your questions and if not, ask away, but read first.

Anna, you really need to read more here at TPOT. Your interpretation of hell is the same that I once believed only to find out such a lie that interpretation is, thank God. Many of us are in hell now, in our own degrees.
These here at TPOT teach no such thing. I'm thankful God has allowed me to have ears to hear it even if being a vessel of dishonor at present time.
Doesn't the scriptures tell us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith and not to partake if we are unworthy. With the doctrine of never ending torment in literal flames and believing in such a doctrine, you won't be able to examine yourself because of man made fear of such a place. Keep yourself quiet and read as the site if you can. If God gives you ears to hear it, then you can truly start calling the gospel of Jesus Christ, great news. The doctrines you and I have been taught is in no way good news at all. Read the restitution of ALL things. And there are many wonderful teachings here.
No, these at TPOT do not come to cast you in a literal pit of fire that you will never come out of, they are nust trying to reprove your erroneous works. But only God can do this for anyone.
Doesn't the word say, that if any man says he abides in Christ and Christ in him, he himself ought to also walk as He (Christ) walked? So tell me which law did Christ break? So ask yourself, are you abiding in Him and He in You? Even now not being a chosen of God, I'm so thankful He has brought me here. He does all things well. Just read and seek if what you've been taught are lies that deceive, even the very elect if it were possible.