The Path of Truth Forum

I just read your take on Andrew Wommack you sent to that lady. Here are my thoughts after walking with Jesus for 40 years. I have listened to Andrew a few times and do believe he is saved but like you, I also believe he has bought the common heresy these days of the "Word of Faith" group. It is really appealing to the flesh, like it was to Adam that he could have God's benefits but be "independent" at the same time. It didn't work then and won't work now.

God is sovereign but He has chosen to pass on His authority to His "believing" children. Adam ruled the planet (under God) until he sold out to Satan. I do believe that "In Christ" we do the same because we have been restored to the place Adam was with God before the fall. "Now we are the Son's of God" 1John However all this authority is passed on to us on a moment by moment revelation of God's will in our spirit. (a continual unveiling of Jesus). Jesus said, "I only do what I see my Father do". He humbled Himself to be dependent on His Father's Sovereignty

I am in agreement with Smith Wigglesworth and Watchman Nee on most things and that is the way they operated. Wigglesworth would always pray and ask the Father what he should do in all circumstances and when God would show him Smith would make it happen in "Jesus name". Nee taught that we have to be ever sensitive to the "revealing" of the Spirit's will in our spirit and move from that.

Mark 11:23-24 are scriptures that the "name in and claim it" bunch hang their hats on however they have it wrong. Jesus was teaching His disciples how Faith operates and also how to get the faith to operate with. He says we must receive God's will by prayer first then when we have peace regarding our requests then we can speak to the situation and will have to obey. God remains sovereign because we first find out what He wants then we have the authority to do it.

The Bible can be a very dangerous book. We have the ability in our own will to read something and then try to make it happen when it first has to be revealed in our spirits before it is from God. We seek and wait on Him to reveal His will regarding things and then with His power bring it to pass. "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"

Basically, Jesus told Peter that when He told him about the keys to the kingdom. Because Peter had "seen" Jesus by revelation from God he now "saw" the Father and as a result KNEW HIS will and with that knowledge he could bring Heaven to Earth.

Enjoyed reading your info,

Mike Shaw

“The remarkable position of every soul is to be so inhabited by Jesus as to become a living personality of God's ideal Son.”
Smith Wigglesworth

Hi Mike,

Many years ago, I came across Nee's many books and thought, “This man seems to be a deep Christian and has so much to say. It seems he has a powerful relationship with the Lord and has analyzed the spiritual man and his development - but is he right?”

As a new believer, I knew a medical doctor, Lorne Rabuka, who proudly professed faith in Christ and was the Adult Sunday School teacher at a Missionary Alliance church I was attending. He was quite taken up with Nee's concepts. I was impressed with Lorne, but I didn't have the least attraction to Nee's doctrine.

Now Lorne didn't have the Spirit of God, so how could he so enjoy Nee's teachings unless they were intellectual and appealed to the flesh? The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge to make a man wise?

“That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination to God.”

“Do not be turned away by different strange teachings, because it is good for your hearts to be made strong by grace, and not by meats, which were of no profit to those who took so much trouble over them” (Hebrews 13:9 BBE).

Nearly 2 years later, my wife and I received the Spirit (see The Baptism in the Holy Spirit. As a result, there was no longer any fellowship with Lorne or those at the Alliance Church who opposed the Spirit and gifts. By His Spirit, the Lord was giving us to better know the difference between good and evil, truth and error.

We then came together with a friend who had most of Nee's books and was quite taken with Nee, as well. He reveled in that knowledge descriptive of the spiritual realm. However, I still wasn't attracted to Nee, nor was my wife. Seeking after the Lord, as we did concerning many preachers, movements and matters, He revealed to me that Watchman Nee was not of Him.

Watchman Nee was an intellectual spiritual exhibitionist, a showoff, and worse, he was full of self-righteousness and revelling in it, in effect, a sorcerer in the Name of the Lord, using truths and feigning holiness. Nee was a self-made hero, a modern day Baal.

Your statement of him, if true, bears witness to what I say:

“Nee taught that we have to be ever sensitive to the 'revealing' of the Spirit's will in our spirit and move from that.”

That is an expression of pure, abominable self-righteousness. “See how sensitive I am to the Spirit,” he proclaims. The man was a peacock in perpetual fanning. And saints know they're looking at the backside.

Yes, Nee suffered great persecution; he was imprisoned; I understand he even had his tongue cut out by the authorities because he refused to stop “witnessing” and “preaching the Gospel,” but not because he was a true witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. He bore witness by his own will and in his own power. He wasn't working with Jesus as Jesus worked with the Father.

Of such the Lord said:

Matthew 7:21-23 LITV
(21) Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven.
(22) Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and in Your Name cast out demons, and in Your Name do many works of power?
(23) And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" Psa. 6:8

Mike, the Kingdom of Heaven isn't about doctrine, intellectual theory or carnal knowledge of Scripture, but about a relationship with the Lord; it's about obeying, loving, knowing Him and He knowing the one who believes. That is the true faith.

The question now is, “Why are YOU deceived or impressed by Watchman Nee?”

Now consider Smith Wigglesworth.

“Wigglesworth would always pray and ask the Father what he should do in all circumstances and when God would show him Smith would make it happen in "Jesus name".”

Wigglesworth seems like a close cousin (if not brother) to Nee, as one presuming and boasting to be an expert “Spirit Senser.” He may not have verbalized the same way as Nee, but his actions speak the same language. He also is similar to the “Word of Faith” preacher you mention, Andrew Wommack. Wigglesworth is another “name it and claim it” advocate, not being as God's son God's way, but as God his own way, punching and kicking people to cast out devils and forcing his will in general “in the Name of the Lord.”

Isn't independence of God what the serpent offered Eve and which the kings of Babylon and Tyre coveted (Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28)? Isn't there a subtle difference between the true and the false? Perhaps you can more explicitly point out the difference to us.

Yes, there are many occasions when the spiritual pilgrim in Christ seeks God for answers. However, what you express here concerning Nee and Wigglesworth seems to be something akin to man being the initiator and even “initiating God” for his own will and pleasure. This would then be presumption and not faith. It would be playing God, not trusting Him - trusting in one self to do the will of God when it is supposed to be God causing us to will and to do. Such is anti-Christ.

Were there signs and wonders? So it's reported with Wigglesworth. So what? Indians were healed by unbelieving Spanish explorers because of soulish faith.

Mike, if it were possible to deceive the elect, the serpent will do it. He is subtle. There's only one thing he won't or can't imitate, and that's the cross. He will not sacrifice himself for this world; otherwise this world is no longer of any value to him.

You write of the Lord Jesus Christ, “He says we must receive God's will by prayer first then when we have peace regarding our requests then we can speak to the situation and will have to obey.”

Yes, Jesus spoke of seeking and asking, but I don't find doctrine anywhere in the Bible quite as you seem to suggest, in terms of always having to ask specifically about matters (perhaps it's a choice of words). We can see several examples of where men were given to know God's will without, or other than by, prayer. You're right that we need to hear His voice and be obedient, but comes a time when hearing His voice comes without striving in asking. It is a matter of nature, faith being the key. When we believe, we're free and know what's required of us, delighting to do His will.

“The Bible can be a very dangerous book. We have the ability in our own will to read something and then try to make it happen when it first has to be revealed in our spirits before it is from God.”

I hear you. We're so inclined to carnal interpretations, but by God's grace. Trying to fulfill the letter as we understand it intellectually is folly. Sons of God will be led of the Spirit. And Peter spoke of how many didn't understand Paul's letters and wrested his teachings to their destruction.

You quote Wigglesworth, ““The remarkable position of every soul is to be so inhabited by Jesus as to become a living personality of God's ideal Son.””

If Smith was speaking of God doing the work (we're His workmanship), true. The saints have a glorious privilege and calling, no question. However, if Smith speaks of our trying to be spiritual as Nee worked at being spiritual in his own right, then again, we have the anti-Christ spirit substituting for God's work and in effect, stealing His glory. I'm not sure which he meant to be communicating in that statement. Do you know, Mike? Nevertheless we do see his fruits, which speak loudest.

Our lot as saints is a battle between spirit and flesh, light and darkness, truth and error, faith and unbelief, and good and evil.

Victor and Paul

Victor and Paul,
I really enjoy fellowship with like-minded saints because just because we might not agree on every dot and tittle we can learn and grow from each other. The discerning ear that I use when listening to anyone that claims Christ is what spirit are they from. I am a member of Jesus' flock and do know His voice as His word says. I have known it from the moments before I gave my will to Him and ever after judged everything by that same voice in my spirit. God is spirit and communes with us in our spirit. We now live from the inside out rather than the outside in.

Concerning Nee:
I have read and reread almost all of His books and agree with you on this point. Some of the latter ones got a little legalistic; he got very strong in trying to tell his "little flock" how to live. Of course the epistles somewhat did the same thing when so many churches were not walking in the Spirit. I know Paul and the others were getting frustrated with them. The main books I believe that are right on target is "The Normal Christian Life" , "Sit, Walk, Stand", "The Spiritual Man". Watchman only wrote one book himself because of the concern that the readers would attempt to follow them intellectually like millions try to do the Bible. He was a total proponent of Grace whereby God has done everything for us that we need through the finished work of Christ on the Cross. I have handed many, many, copies of "The Normal Christian Life" to new believers and they have been greatly benefited and anchored in their faith by it. Allot of His writings are very intellectual and many Christians will find them hard to understand but Nee said we should look at them as something to confirm our faith rather than follow them. Of course that is the way we should look at all preachers, teachers, prophets, in my opinion. The Holy Spirit is the only teacher we need, everything else just confirms what He says or just put it on the shelf. All we really need is the Grace of God and to grow in it and the knowledge of the Lord 2 Peter 3:18

About Smith Wigglesworth:
I have read almost every thing that was written about him or he that wrote himself. I am not saying that the man was perfection personified, but his passion for Jesus and his hatred against the Devil and his works especially death was right on. Yes, he raised approx. 20 people from the dead (documented) and healed thousands and thousands, so I think he does deserve a glance to see what he believed. Sure the Devil can counterfeit supernatural works but that does not mean that Smith was what you discerned. Jesus said believers would do His works and greater works. Through his writings I feel the flow of the spirit as I read them and am lifted and blessed every time I do just like when I read the Bible. The Holy Spirit was definitely using that man and I don't sense any pride or arrogance emanating from him. He wanted to give his whole being to the Lord's service every day and wanted only His will working through his life. He was just brash and forceful at times because of his hatred of the Devil. No record of any lawsuits as a result, only healings!

As far as your comments about my "doctrine" about praying and asking and receiving then we can make it happen. That is what Jesus taught His disciples in Mark 11:23-24. He taught them how faith works when you have it by speaking to the mountain. Sometimes we don't know God's perfect will about things or how to accomplish His works so we need to pray until we have HIS peace, then we can move the problem or difficulty. That is what the old saints called "praying through"
I believe. Yes, we walk in His will because He has written His laws in our hearts and in our minds but when we are battling the Devil we need to get God's go-ahead to be able to bind and loose in some cases.

Last but not least; I spent the first 15 years of my walk with God learning what GRACE really means. I was fortunate to be mentored by a excellent grace teacher from England who had lived it for many years. The Devil will always attempt to draw us into works (self-righteousness), of that I am sure. That way he can easily defeat us. We are no match for him outside of Christ but dominate the Devil "IN HIM". I learned from the beginning to never say NO to Sin but say YES to Jesus every time when tempted to live it in my own strength. It is when we are weak in ourselves we become strong. We grow weaker and weaker so He becomes stronger and stronger.
Amen and amen



“The remarkable position of every soul is to be so inhabited by Jesus as to become a living personality of God's ideal Son.”
Smith Wigglesworth

Hi Mike, how are you doing?

Victor

Great to hear from you. Jesus is still on the throne and I am there with Him! Nothing better than that is there? You and Paul the same?

Amen, there's no better place to be, Mike.

Paul, I am NOT saying these two men were infallible as we are not either but since when have you raised 20 people from the dead and ministered GRACE to the degree to bless literally millions the way they have. I think someone needs to expose you. Wigglesworth loved the Lord Jesus with his entire being and God used him greatly including many thousands of healings and salvations. You need to read their writings with your spirit instead of your pharisaical judgment!! Nee had his moments but for most of his ministry he trusted God even unto death. He could have escaped China but CHOSE to be persecuted and imprisoned rather than be a poor example to his flock.

In Him, Mike

1/5/15: We have two new False Teachers Exposed:

Watchman Nee & Smith Wigglesworth:

Playing God Instead of Trusting Him

Here are two spiritual giants of human willpower, attempting to be Christian by great works and sacrifices that come to naught.

We understand quite well what you are or aren't saying, Mike. There's no misunderstanding on our part, but you don't understand what we are saying.

Do you think Moses and Elijah would have understood you? Do you not know that Paul and I are greater than Moses or Elijah? Hasn't that been made known to you? Read our testimonies and ask God if what we're saying here to you is true or not.

Victor

Victor, Your assertion that Nee and Wigglesworth were operating ONLY in their own "self-righteous" strength is an un-righteous criticism without listening via the Holy Spirit to everything they taught. I have walked with Jesus for over 40 years and have learned to discern the voice of God in all that I hear from anyone and both of those men's writings definitely have the anointing of God on them. Like I said, they were fallible, as well as us, but the Spirit of a thing makes all the difference. Unless the Holy Spirit puts His stamp on it I just shelve it and so should you. I know that the least of the saints are greater than anyone under the Old Covenant because We have the mind of Christ. But, the Spirit is the ONLY teacher we need, correct? Amen

Mike, I too can claim walking with the Lord for 42 years now since my conversion in 1973 and receiving the Spirit in 1975. I was also seduced by the powerful influences of many “men of God.” But coming out of the systems of men, I was delivered from that vulnerability by His grace. To leave the harlot church was a must.

Two men in my early Christian life were infatuated with Nee. Neither of these men knew the Lord and both ended up years later destroyed in their spiritual lives, families and all. God has been gracious to me and my family, not that my wife and I deserve anything good from God; I certainly don't.

So what does that tell me of who those men were impressed with? Not that Nee can be blamed for them, but as I red Nee, I found much spiritual philosophy and ostentation in Nee's books like, “See how spiritually deep I am.” As you say, “…they were fallible, as well as us, but the Spirit of a thing makes all the difference.”

I must say the Lord has revealed these things to me, as He promised He would back in 1975 soon after receiving His Spirit. By prophecy through a brother who was a stranger to me and I to him, the Lord said, among many other things that I would see more than other men. Those prophecies have come to pass. Is that “stamp” good enough? Perhaps, perhaps not. You'll have to judge it before the Lord.

Yes, the Spirit of Christ IS the Only Teacher we must ultimately have, not only need. Without Him, we know nothing, nothing at all (1 John 2:20, 27).

Still Mike, I do not want to be wrong in such sober matters and I especially shudder at the thought of maligning any brother in Christ, so you pray for us that we will do no such thing, ok?

I'm glad you caught the “the least in the Kingdom is greater than he.” Many won't. I think you do have something going for you, Mike, but consider that perhaps there's more than has met your eye. Consider the reality and gravity of the Lord's words:

“For false christs and false prophets will rise up. And they will give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect” (Matthew 24:24 LITV).

I have a Nee book on hand in my library and I think I'll take another look at it tonight. (I wrote that statement 2 days ago and red some of Sit, Walk, Stand. Impressive words and doctrine, much I have to agree with, yet there's something just not right, Mike.)

Thank you, Mike; I do appreciate your spirit in all of this.

Victor

Victor, really enjoyed your post. In 74, after I had surrendered my will to God through Jesus, I plunged myself into "hearing" God's voice through every word in the Bible. For over two months I was like a starving dog gorging myself on His every word. Now that I was a "new creature" in Christ I had to find out who I now was since the OLD me perished with Him.

To my shock, I discovered multitudes of things that "religion" had been teaching the world that was flat-out wrong. The most important thing I learned is that I could hear HIS voice for myself and how important that is for "every" believer, for without it you will follow any error filled voice. "MY sheep know MY voice and follow me."

Nee's take on the "Normal Christian Life" is definitely anointed by the Holy Spirit and is a strong foundation for any "freshly saved" believer. I hand out dozens of them to the incarcerated that have received Christ and it really supplies a strong base for them showing them from the book of Romans how that they have been forgiven because God "believes" in the blood at the whipping post. The work was for us but the blood was for God. If HE IS HAPPY, everybody is happy! It teaches them to "rest" and "abide" in God's rest.

And most importantly, it shows them that "they themselves" WERE, (past tense) crucified when Christ was crucified and God sees them as dead. 90% of all inmates are addicted to some substance and or alcohol and these truths set them free from ALL of that. They, for the most part, really grasp the FACT that because of the Cross and in Jesus name, they NEVER EVER have to Sin again. Paul through Romans does such a great job of implanting the "new covenant" in our hearts and it should be studied and prayed about until we COMPLETELY get it. ALL OF US!!

There are a couple of errors in his book but not serious ones but for the most part it is "right on". They wrote that book from his spoken messages fairly early in his ministry but later on in the late 40's he slid into some error in my opinion concerning the "dominance" of church hierarchy. I own about 25 of his books and some of them I have barely read because the anointing wasn't there. I have read Guyon, Tozer, Spurgeon, Wigglesworth and many others but still my "inner ear" is always listening for the Master!!

Hi Mike,

Would you like to be put on our mailing list? You may find the letters edifying, the Spirit bearing witness to the truth applied in various situations regarding different subjects that come up in our daily correspondence.

Paul

Yes, that would be great.

I added you in this morning Mike, and you should have received your first letter. If you have any comments or questions, send them to us, but don't include the person we're corresponding with. If there's anything further to share with them, we'll look after that.

Paul

Victor and Paul, I am sure you know that "Peter" is NOT the rock that the church was built upon it is the "revelation of Jesus Christ". By SEEING Him, we are truly Saved!

Yes, we're aware, Mike. Thank you!

Jacob has since responded and I hope to reply soon. He inadvertently included a copy of his letter to his father saying this was something he hadn't seen before. We knew that!

Victor

Paul, I certainly don't worship the Trinity but believe it this way. You are Paul Cohen: Your body is Paul Cohen, your soul is Paul Cohen, and your spirit is Paul Cohen. Is it not? Three persons in one person but ALL Paul Cohen. That is the closest thing to "logic" I can come up with.

Mike

Hi Mike,

In describing me you're describing one person, not three. The Trinity doctrine clearly says there are three persons in one God. That's like saying you, Victor, and I are just one person.

Your explanation doesn't work any way you look at it. The Bible says “God is a Spirit,” not the “Holy Spirit is a Spirit, but the Son is a body.” The Bible says the Holy Spirit purchased us with His Own blood (Acts 20:28).

Jesus said He would raise His body from the dead (John 2:19); in other places it says God raised Him up (Acts 2:24, 32). The Scriptures aren't describing different Gods, but one God manifest in different ways.

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory” (1 Timothy 3:16 MKJV).

Does this help? Did the writing we sent William help you to see how people are worshipping “the Trinity” instead of the God of the Bible?

God came in the flesh in order for us to know Him and to be made like Him. We don't become a three person entity, but become like God through Jesus Christ:

“Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2 MKJV). Not “them,” but Him, the One and Only God!

Paul

Paul, I understand where you are coming from but I believe for the most part it is "splitting hairs". The Holy Spirit is here to reveal Jesus to us as the Son of God and without Him no one can be saved. Acts 20:28 is not saying that the Holy Spirit purchased us with His own blood. A Spirit cannot bleed! When God said, "...let us make man in OUR own image..." He was referring to His Triune-ness. I am ALL Mike Shaw, manifested as three individual entities. Spirit, soul, and body. I don't think we should make all this too big of a deal and "kill" the main message. If we do, we will not Love one another as instructed. We MUST pick our battles carefully and NOT throw out the baby with the bathwater!

Bless you, (all three of you) lol

Mike, you didn't answer my question: Did the writing we sent William help you to see how people are worshipping “the Trinity” instead of the God of the Bible?

As for splitting hairs, Trinitarians have not only split hairs, but have burnt those alive who don't worship their strange gods. Read The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin.

Paul

Yes Paul, I read the writing and am aware of those that "worship" the doctrines of the Church instead of the Author Himself. Even tho the Bible is the most wonderful book in the world, it has been used of the devil to tragedically lead many to their doom.
Mike

The point of the writing about the Trinitarian's gospel is that the doctrines of “the Church” (false one), such as “the Trinity,” aren't the doctrines of the Bible. Is it splitting hairs to tell people so, contending for the faith that once delivered to the saints? Many men of God laid down their lives confronting such darkness and lies, and we are their beneficiaries and debtors who've been given a solemn obligation and privilege to speak the truth in Christ.

Did you read the writing about Calvin? Roasting Servetus was just a “warm up” for what was to come for him and all such heretics/unbelievers according to the false Church and its diabolical doctrines (Never-ending Torment).

How can people be led out of doom and destruction, Mike, unless light is shed on the deception and wiles of Satan? And what about the judgment of Satan's ministers and evildoers, something highly desired and performed by the Lord and His saints?

“Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly among them about all their ungodly deeds which they have committed impiously, and about all the harsh words which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 1:14-15 EMTV).

“Hair-splitting”?

Paul

Paul, I totally understand your vehement and passionate feelings about false doctrine. I fight them daily myself. But what I am referring to is, we should be about preaching Christ and His Cross that totally takes care of "EVERY" false doctrine there is, in my opinion. What one is not covered and destroyed at the Cross "in Christ"? Every thing else is carnal and born of the devil through man's flesh. In the Name of Jesus, all error is quenched and Life comes forth!!
"Cross-splitting!!"

Hi Mike,

Body, soul and spirit are not 3 persons, and trinitarians don't define the trinity that way. I am made in God's image. You don't have 3 people to relate to, nor are body, soul and spirit “co-equal.” There are several holes in that analogy.

Now ask yourself what right we have to define God or His Nature in erroneous fashion. Will we not relate to God as we conceive of or understand Him? If we misunderstand, will we not err in how we relate to or worship Him? Would He want that? Can He even tolerate it if His command and righteous requirement of us is perfection?

You may think these matters are splitting hairs. We are simply speaking against error in whatever form it takes. Error has no place in the Kingdom, certainly not if it can be helped...and it can.

Did you say Spirit can't bleed? The Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world. God's Mind is Essence, Reality. The Life is in the blood. In Him is Life.

Not to argue or differ, yet to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, faith in all truth and no darkness or lie,

Victor