(This is an archived correspondence at The Path of Truth. We have sent notification to the correspondent.)
Hi Victor and Paul,
My name is Doreen, 48 years of age, married to a Christian man, and I live on the West Coast of BC Canada. We stopped going to churches quite awhile back.
Years ago the Holy Spirit started to show me that salvation does not happen instantly, but occurs through a step by step crucifixion of the old, fallen nature. Currently I am still not saved, but are slowly making progress on the way that eventually leads to salvation.
During my search for truth these past years I found the website of Hall and Joan Worthington. Initially their teachings sounded "New Age", but after reading the website the second or even third time their teachings seemed to make sense, at least it seemed to make the most sense of everything I had read before that time concerning how to be saved.
So, three years ago I started with the prescribed "quiet time" to wait upon the Holy Spirit, preferably 1 hour every day. This turned out to be quite tiresome, and eventually a burden. Since my conversion in 1991 the Holy Spirit has led me in important things, sometimes with the still, small voice, but mostly outside any "quiet time" where I try to still my mind and listen to the Holy Spirit.
I have corresponded with Hall frequently via email, and I received prompt and to the point answers back. So far, so good. But gradually I got doubts about his core teachings. According to Hall, there are no born again believers on earth at this moment, including himself and his wife Joan.
Question 1: Do you believe this to be true?
Question 2: Are you saved and spiritually in the Kingdom?
According to Hall the modern State of Israel is a fabrication of man, and not of God; he claims Jesus told him that during his quiet time (he calls it "the voice of the Lord within").
Question 3: do you believe Israel is just a man made fabrication, and will eventually be destroyed, just like other nations on earth?
Question 4: Who do you believe the 144.000 are? Hall believes he will be one of them, and that this is the group of believers that has been restored to such an extend that they can never fall into sin again, while still living on earth. He believes ten thousands of early Quakers have already joined the number belonging to the 144.000, so in the end times this number will be filled.
What bothers me about Hall and Joan is that they themselves are still not regenerated, not even to the first stage of salvation, where Adam and Eve where in before they fell. I asked Hall up front about this, and according to him the important task he will have in the endtimes and afterwards on the New Earth requiers thorough preparation; once the first person has entered paradise and later the Kingdom it will be much easier for other peole to become born again (in just 3-4 months instead of years and years) so Hall believes.
Question 5: What do you believe concerning the above?
Because of my doubts about Hall and Joan I started to search for Christians who also pose questions and have doubts concerning these people and that led me to your website where I found your article about Hall and Joan Worhtington.
Hope to hear from you,
Doreen
PS: I do not care what the Truth is, as long as it is the Truth.
My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
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Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
Re: My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
Hi Doreen,
The answers to your questions are, for the most part, answered in our posting on the Worthingtons as false teachers. Nevertheless, we will answer you simply and directly here, while guiding you back to the posting for another reading - thorough and prayerfully.
According to Hall, there are no born again believers on earth at this moment, including himself and his wife Joan.
Question 1: Do you believe this to be true?
No.
Question 2: Are you saved and spiritually in the Kingdom?
Yes.
“But God, Who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved), and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6 MKJV).
According to Hall the modern State of Israel is a fabrication of man, and not of God; he claims Jesus told him that during his quiet time (he calls it "the voice of the Lord within").
Question 3: do you believe Israel is just a man made fabrication, and will eventually be destroyed, just like other nations on earth?
No; the nation of Israel is a work of God, raised from the dead just as He promised He would do. Read:
Behold, Israel and the Jew!
God Keeps His Promises: The Jews in their Land of Israel
Israel Back in the Land, as Promised
Question 4: Who do you believe the 144.000 are? Hall believes he will be one of them, and that this is the group of believers that has been restored to such an extend that they can never fall into sin again, while still living on earth. He believes ten thousands of early Quakers have already joined the number belonging to the 144.000, so in the end times this number will be filled.
Forget what Hall believes - he is living in the fantasy of his own mind. Every manmade religion believes they are the people of God, whether the 144,000, as the Jehovah's Witnesses believing the same as the Quakers about themselves, or the Catholic Church, which claims to be the Church of God on earth. It's all presumptuous blasphemy. The Lord has His people, a mystical body, of which the 144,000 is a symbolic number of the firstfruits of Christ, the Israel of God.
What bothers me about Hall and Joan is that they themselves are still not regenerated, not even to the first stage of salvation, where Adam and Eve where in before they fell. I asked Hall up front about this, and according to him the important task he will have in the endtimes and afterwards on the New Earth requiers thorough preparation; once the first person has entered paradise and later the Kingdom it will be much easier for other peole to become born again (in just 3-4 months instead of years and years) so Hall believes.
Question 5: What do you believe concerning the above?
Pioneers do blaze the way for others to follow, but other than this true principle, Hall doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord Jesus Christ. Every soul must strive to enter into the Kingdom and will only do so through much tribulation.
Hall is right, however, in saying he's not regenerated. Hearing that, therefore, you should flee, not spending another minute hoping to get something good out of a polluted well. Only a regenerated heart can preach the Good News and minister to and edify the Body of Christ, which body is composed only of born again believers, by which birth one becomes a member.
Ephesians 4:11-16 MKJV
(11) And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
(12) for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
(13) And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
(14) so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit.
(15) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ;
(16) from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.
Paul and Victor
The answers to your questions are, for the most part, answered in our posting on the Worthingtons as false teachers. Nevertheless, we will answer you simply and directly here, while guiding you back to the posting for another reading - thorough and prayerfully.
According to Hall, there are no born again believers on earth at this moment, including himself and his wife Joan.
Question 1: Do you believe this to be true?
No.
Question 2: Are you saved and spiritually in the Kingdom?
Yes.
“But God, Who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved), and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6 MKJV).
According to Hall the modern State of Israel is a fabrication of man, and not of God; he claims Jesus told him that during his quiet time (he calls it "the voice of the Lord within").
Question 3: do you believe Israel is just a man made fabrication, and will eventually be destroyed, just like other nations on earth?
No; the nation of Israel is a work of God, raised from the dead just as He promised He would do. Read:
Behold, Israel and the Jew!
God Keeps His Promises: The Jews in their Land of Israel
Israel Back in the Land, as Promised
Question 4: Who do you believe the 144.000 are? Hall believes he will be one of them, and that this is the group of believers that has been restored to such an extend that they can never fall into sin again, while still living on earth. He believes ten thousands of early Quakers have already joined the number belonging to the 144.000, so in the end times this number will be filled.
Forget what Hall believes - he is living in the fantasy of his own mind. Every manmade religion believes they are the people of God, whether the 144,000, as the Jehovah's Witnesses believing the same as the Quakers about themselves, or the Catholic Church, which claims to be the Church of God on earth. It's all presumptuous blasphemy. The Lord has His people, a mystical body, of which the 144,000 is a symbolic number of the firstfruits of Christ, the Israel of God.
What bothers me about Hall and Joan is that they themselves are still not regenerated, not even to the first stage of salvation, where Adam and Eve where in before they fell. I asked Hall up front about this, and according to him the important task he will have in the endtimes and afterwards on the New Earth requiers thorough preparation; once the first person has entered paradise and later the Kingdom it will be much easier for other peole to become born again (in just 3-4 months instead of years and years) so Hall believes.
Question 5: What do you believe concerning the above?
Pioneers do blaze the way for others to follow, but other than this true principle, Hall doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lord Jesus Christ. Every soul must strive to enter into the Kingdom and will only do so through much tribulation.
Hall is right, however, in saying he's not regenerated. Hearing that, therefore, you should flee, not spending another minute hoping to get something good out of a polluted well. Only a regenerated heart can preach the Good News and minister to and edify the Body of Christ, which body is composed only of born again believers, by which birth one becomes a member.
Ephesians 4:11-16 MKJV
(11) And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
(12) for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
(13) And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
(14) so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit.
(15) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ;
(16) from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.
Paul and Victor
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Doreen
Re: My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
Thanks for your reply.
I forgot to mention that this email correspondence is mend to stay private. Therefore I do not give permission to post this on your website. In general I do not join blogs or social media like Facebook.
Sincerely,
Doreen
I forgot to mention that this email correspondence is mend to stay private. Therefore I do not give permission to post this on your website. In general I do not join blogs or social media like Facebook.
Sincerely,
Doreen
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
Doreen, as requested, we replied to you, and we have honored your request to not publicly post the correspondence. Did you receive the reply and what do you have to say?
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Doreen
Re: My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
Thanks for not publicly posting the correspondence.
I received your reply. Thanks for your input. I trust the Holy Spirit will make things increasingly clear.
I received your reply. Thanks for your input. I trust the Holy Spirit will make things increasingly clear.
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
Doreen, we do hope to post the essence of the mail under the False Teachers section, but without your personal identifying details, just to clarify.
It's part of warning the brethren and those at large of the dangers they, as you, are being confronted with. Truth must have the identification and preeminence, even if it costs us when standing in the Truth, even as it did the Lord and His disciples and prophets.
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It's part of warning the brethren and those at large of the dangers they, as you, are being confronted with. Truth must have the identification and preeminence, even if it costs us when standing in the Truth, even as it did the Lord and His disciples and prophets.
\/
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Doreen
Re: My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
As long as all personal identifying details (my name, location where I live and email address) are removed from the email I am fine with posting the correspondence.
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Doreen
Re: My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
Victor,
Yesterday, Tuesday October 11, I send you an email in which I gave my approval to post the correspondence on your website, providing that all of my personal details would be removed.
I thought about it, and I have decided that I do not want this after all, so do not post our email correspondence. It's was mend as a private email conversation. Actually, I find it impolite that you did not respect my wishes the first time around.
Doreen
Yesterday, Tuesday October 11, I send you an email in which I gave my approval to post the correspondence on your website, providing that all of my personal details would be removed.
I thought about it, and I have decided that I do not want this after all, so do not post our email correspondence. It's was mend as a private email conversation. Actually, I find it impolite that you did not respect my wishes the first time around.
Doreen
-
Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
Re: My doubts about Hall and Joan Worthington
Doreen,
We never promised you anything and are under no obligation to do as you demand - certainly not before the Lord. Listen on.
You came to us asking for answers to serious spiritual concerns about a husband and wife team (the Worthingtons) who promote their beliefs publicly, as if they speak for God. This a matter of great importance to whoever comes in contact with these self-proclaimed teachers, and is of value to all others who are able to receive the truth we've taken the time to speak to you.
How is it you reserve the right to question or speak against, behind their backs, teachers you've been in touch with, rather than being open and honest? Is that what the Lord would have you do? Shall you whisper and murmur and not be as “an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile,” as Jesus said of Nathanael? Do you think to prevent us from sharing the truth with others just to save your own skin? Shall it be their blood for yours? What is this? Is this the fruit of the Holy Spirit you claim to be hearing from? We don't think so!
You say, “Currently I am still not saved, but are slowly making progress on the way that eventually leads to salvation.” Slowly? How about being at a complete standstill with this kind of lukewarm “commitment”? If you aren't prepared to identify with the Lord in Truth against falsehood that deceives others, what kind of progress or fruit is that? Need we say?
If God and the Bible unequivocally declare that people are born again, and Hall has the audacity to call God a liar, aren't you obligated to identify with the Truth (Jesus Christ), taking up the cross that alone brings salvation? Why do you fear scoundrels like the Worthingtons, who are anti-Christ?
You signed off your first letter with a noteworthy postscript, saying, “I do not care what the Truth is, as long as it is the Truth.”
Really? Well, here's the Truth: Since we've presented you with the Truth of being honest and open for the sake of Truth and those who need to hear it, you suddenly don't want the Truth? Unless you're willing to stop preserving yourself, you're dead and in hell. Have you not spoken idle words? We should say so. You certainly aren't taking the Kingdom by violence, which is the key requirement of faith for one seeking salvation.
To top it off, you justify yourself by faulting us for not agreeing to cover your flesh - “Actually, I find it impolite that you did not respect my wishes the first time around.” So now you're more righteous than the Lord? Shame on Him for saying: “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, and nothing hidden which shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear, proclaim on the housetops”
(Matthew 10:26-27 MKJV)!
Not only is it our obligation in the Lord to inform the public of the truth about the Worthingtons, but also to share your example of treachery against Jesus Christ.
“I tell you, on the Day of Judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matthew 12:36-37 ESV).
Victor and Paul
We never promised you anything and are under no obligation to do as you demand - certainly not before the Lord. Listen on.
You came to us asking for answers to serious spiritual concerns about a husband and wife team (the Worthingtons) who promote their beliefs publicly, as if they speak for God. This a matter of great importance to whoever comes in contact with these self-proclaimed teachers, and is of value to all others who are able to receive the truth we've taken the time to speak to you.
How is it you reserve the right to question or speak against, behind their backs, teachers you've been in touch with, rather than being open and honest? Is that what the Lord would have you do? Shall you whisper and murmur and not be as “an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile,” as Jesus said of Nathanael? Do you think to prevent us from sharing the truth with others just to save your own skin? Shall it be their blood for yours? What is this? Is this the fruit of the Holy Spirit you claim to be hearing from? We don't think so!
You say, “Currently I am still not saved, but are slowly making progress on the way that eventually leads to salvation.” Slowly? How about being at a complete standstill with this kind of lukewarm “commitment”? If you aren't prepared to identify with the Lord in Truth against falsehood that deceives others, what kind of progress or fruit is that? Need we say?
If God and the Bible unequivocally declare that people are born again, and Hall has the audacity to call God a liar, aren't you obligated to identify with the Truth (Jesus Christ), taking up the cross that alone brings salvation? Why do you fear scoundrels like the Worthingtons, who are anti-Christ?
You signed off your first letter with a noteworthy postscript, saying, “I do not care what the Truth is, as long as it is the Truth.”
Really? Well, here's the Truth: Since we've presented you with the Truth of being honest and open for the sake of Truth and those who need to hear it, you suddenly don't want the Truth? Unless you're willing to stop preserving yourself, you're dead and in hell. Have you not spoken idle words? We should say so. You certainly aren't taking the Kingdom by violence, which is the key requirement of faith for one seeking salvation.
To top it off, you justify yourself by faulting us for not agreeing to cover your flesh - “Actually, I find it impolite that you did not respect my wishes the first time around.” So now you're more righteous than the Lord? Shame on Him for saying: “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, and nothing hidden which shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear, proclaim on the housetops”
(Matthew 10:26-27 MKJV)!
Not only is it our obligation in the Lord to inform the public of the truth about the Worthingtons, but also to share your example of treachery against Jesus Christ.
“I tell you, on the Day of Judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matthew 12:36-37 ESV).
Victor and Paul