Let's debate the topic of the Nephilim/giants

[Andrew Battaglia]

Can anything or anyone operate outside the will of God? NO, NO and NO. Praise be to the name of our God, our Saviour, the Author and Finisher of our faith, the Alpha and Omega, the Lord Jesus Christ. All glory and honour to Him, Amen.
Simon

Amen! Well said, Simon, and all others who were given to respond. Thank You, Lord, for Your servants!

[Brian McDonald]

Simon I think we have a witness here against Doug. The scripture you quoted is the very one I sent today to Doug in an email exchange to point out what I considered was an error in a post he has up on his site about much the same thing you mention here.
There is a Confidentiality Notice: at the bottom of the email that states I may be in breach of the law if I share the contents with any body else, so I am not sure what I should do.
Rather than copy and paste I can tell you I suppose.

Doug has a post on his site titled: Satan’s Origin and Fall.
He used this scripture below to make his point, inferring that the scripture was talking about Satan.

Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, “Thus says the Lord GOD: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profanething out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you [abedkha אַבֶּדְךָ֙], O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you. You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; ThereforeI brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever,” Ezekiel 28:12-19

I confronted Doug on this, asking how this could be satan and used the scripture below to show how he was in error.

You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn’t stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.

I put it to Doug as follows... Is this the same one ( Doug mentioned above) who was a murderer from the “beginning” the one in which there is no truth. The one who was/is the father of lies? For the sake of your readers I think you need to look at this again Doug.
Doug replied suggesting that satan fell some time in the first week of creation. Satan turned from being good to bad close to the beginning. He was a murderer from the earliest of times.
I emailed Doug back letting him know I was the same Brian engaging him on the forum. I told him his PhD had gone to his head and that basically he was talking through his rear-end, mixing the scriptures to suit the outcome he was presenting. I told him he was playing with words and not just any old words but the Word of God and that he should think about that. Of course he emailed back asking where he was in error.
I was tired by now but I sent this reply pointing out a second time about satan being a lair from the beginning he (Doug) was saying, no, no Jesus you are wrong and I Doug Hamp am right and so on. I told him he sees things that are not there and runs with them making them fit whatever he wishes. I told him his fallen angel theory was a good example. I told him his ears were shut and he didn’t care and that I was finished with this and the Lord will deal with it when and how he sees fit.

He emailed me back. He accuse me of the very same things I was accusing him of. Mixing scripture twisting God’s word. He re-stated his belief that satan was created good along with all the other angels God created and then very shortly after the first week he turned bad. He ended with guess what....he wants me to have the courage to come his show and debate him.I think not!

Hope this is readable, I'm tired. Didn't sleep last night at all.

[Brian McDonald]

Sorry folks for all this tapping on my keyboard, on and off all day, but I had to come back with this. I had no sooner hit the submit button on my last post when I felt the Lord rebuke me, reminding me that this is not about one-upmanship. Which I admit I was feeling a bit high on it. I am sorry Lord and thank you for correcting me. Sorry Simon for involving you in my selfish pride though it takes nothing away from what you said.

[Brandon LaBerteaux]

Brian, I read that article on Hamp's site too this morning. I found similar errors, including mixing up the king of tyre with Satan.

Doug, have you examined what ThePathofTruth has to say on the Origin of Satan? He was a man who usurped Adam's birthright and ascended to the throne for a time, but now is cast down as Jesus Christ reclaims His Kingdom. Perhaps you might find things there you haven't considered? It is our hope for you and for everyone to repent and come to know Christ as He truly is.

I also noticed a study of parallels of Satan mixed in with other hero figures in other religions of antiquity. That line of thinking sounds somewhat gnostic and of the world religion, which is essentially Luciferianism. Best to stick with revelation from God and not dabble in mythologies.

[Victor Hafichuk]

I told him he sees things that are not there and runs with them making them fit whatever he wishes. I told him his fallen angel theory was a good example. I told him his ears were shut and he didn’t care and that I was finished with this and the Lord will deal with it when and how he sees fit.

Good on the confession and apology, Brian; the Lord isn't condemning, but forgives you if there's anything to be forgiven. As for breaching of men's laws, God sorts through all that, as well. Jesus wouldn't have healed on the Sabbath or eaten from fields on the Sabbath if He was so concerned about men's laws. Not that they aren't needful at times, but God knows your heart.

We often quote private correspondence as you know and people don't like it, but if they are so virtuous, so truthful, and their words so valuable to people, why would they object to shouting the truth from the housetops? What do they have to fear?

Truly, we deal with liars and hypocrites, cowards who love to puff themselves up in privacy but fear the light as the legendary zombies who can't stand it, shrieking when exposed.

I quote your above words for a moment to agree with you on Doug's posture. We're about to call it quits on him. He insists we haven't proven our case, which is something akin to a blind man saying, "I don't see anything."

He also, as your statement indicates, seems to think his theory is right and our argument is wrong simply because there were giants on record, albeit LONG AFTER God's cleansing flood. Why is Hamp's explanation the only valid one, and why do we need to give an antagonist any explanation for anything? Who does he think he is? He writes:

Could one of you please explain any of the following verses?

“For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the giants. Indeed his bedstead was an iron bedstead. (Is it not in Rabbah of the people of Ammon?) Nine cubits is its length and four cubits its width, according to the standard cubit. (Deut 3:11)

“Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them, Whose height was like the height of the cedars, And he was as strong as the oaks, Yet I destroyed his fruit above And his roots beneath. (Amos 2:9)

“There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.” (Num 13:33)

You clearly have exceedingly tall people - what is your explanation?"

Who among us denies there were giants? And I see you say you take the Scriptures literally. Do you really believe the giants were literally as tall as the cedars, and so big in comparison to the Israelites as people literally are to grasshoppers? Really? Do you make no allowance for figurative language? If not, you have a mountain of explaining to do. How about a monster with literally seven heads and ten horns, for example?

Or your three-headed monstrosity, the "trinity." All Trinitarians fail to explain what they call the unexplainable, including you, yet you demand that we explain anything to you?

And why must we explain genetic peculiarities? So that you can "prove" us wrong or ignorant with your inane arguments and maintain your foolish agenda?

And do you not have the simple ability to understand that God destroyed all flesh by a flood to get rid of the evil that occurred if there had been angels producing giants that caused evil to run rampant? Did God's water solution fail? Could it have been because He got all confused and destroyed the victims and not the perpetrators?

Doug Hamp, call it ad hominem all you want but you are nothing but a damned fool, and for us to continue indefinitely with you would place us in the same category. You have nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ and I'm here to tell you so. He now says He has never known you, child of lawlessness.

If you believe otherwise, there is simply no hope for you as you are - fire, darkness, and gnashing of teeth are all yours. You insist:

"My offer stands if anyone would like to have a very civil debate on the issue of the Nephilim on my show. I will present evidence from the Bible, history, and linguistics. You are free to bring whatever evidence you prefer."

We ARE free, and you are bound. Many are the proverbs on fools that suit you perfectly. You've had great opportunity to learn and mend your evil ways, yet you insist that you teach us your foolishness. Such is your way, so now go with your gods and destroy yourself with your gods.

As you point out, Brandon, many of the arguments Hamp poses are answered on our site about Satan's origin, like the Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 passages about the king of Babylon and ruler of Tyre, not an "angel" that fell by pride.

[Lori Reneri]

Marilyn wishes there was a "Like" button here, Simon. That would be handy.

Marilyn that's exactly what I was thinking as I'm reading through all of these responses...they are all on point! Thank you Lord for the enlightenment. Doug I hope you will find it too. The truth shall set you free. Amen

[Simon Hall]

Sorry folks for all this tapping on my keyboard, on and off all day, but I had to come back with this. I had no sooner hit the submit button on my last post when I felt the Lord rebuke me, reminding me that this is not about one-upmanship. Which I admit I was feeling a bit high on it. I am sorry Lord and thank you for correcting me. Sorry Simon for involving you in my selfish pride though it takes nothing away from what you said.

Good on the confession and apology, Brian; the Lord isn't condemning, but forgives you if there's anything to be forgiven. As for breaching of men's laws, God sorts through all that, as well. Jesus wouldn't have healed on the Sabbath or eaten from fields on the Sabbath if He was so concerned about men's laws. Not that they aren't needful at times, but God knows your heart.

Amen to the above, Victor, and amen to the whole of your last post.

No problem from my side, Brian. I appreciate the fact that you've been given to come in to the light and you're responding to the Lord's leading. The exact opposite of Doug Hamp who was shown a very simple truth, yet flees from repentance because he chooses his gods over the Truth, The Lord Jesus Christ. As Victor said, Doug will go and be destroyed along with his gods. Once Doug and his gods have been destroyed, then good will come of it.

[Tom Babcock]

Thanks to all who have made this subject real. I was struck by it and sent it to Paul S, an old internet, thinking it would be good for him to hear since I was once in agreement with him. But I only saw his error as I had abandoned this view of the Nephilim. Then late last night, I saw Paul C's article re Doug Hamp "Giants Who Bring Humanity Down" and the meaning of Nephilim,

"The Hebrew word translated as “giants” basically means “those who cause to fall.” These offspring of the sons of God and daughters of men represented an unholy mixture, the things of God being made carnal. This is exactly what Hamp is doing. He makes himself a “giant” by taking the Name of the Lord in vain, using what He has given us for spiritual guidance in order to teach his erring opinion, mixing holy seed with flesh and causing those who follow him to fall into the ditch with him."

and, "The term in Hebrew implies not so much the idea of great stature as of reckless ferocity, impious and daring characters, who spread devastation and carnage far and wide," JFB.

Then I saw how this described me! I injured my brothers ear when we were small. and I abused boys of my age during high school years, so I was causing them to fall, and then as a cover up, started becoming religious later teaching a 'bible study' here, enhanced with my own pet ideas, some in the items posted in this thread including the Rapture and the two verses re Satan, but really the kings of Tyre and Babylon. These have kept me in bondage for a long time.

I thank and praise God for for being shown these things through TPOT as scripture says, we are sanctified by the Word of truth . . .Jn 17:17.
Please let me know if I have missed something here,
Gratefully, Tom

[Terri Cabreros]

Reading through this entire thread...am so very thankful for the TRUTH spoken by Paul, Victor, Brian, Alan, Simon, Tom, Andrew and Brandon!

The Wisdom of the Lord versus the carnal knowledge of man. There is no debate.

[Jason C Lee]

An interesting subject and good clarification. I too have wondered about giants in the OT.

[Paul Cohen]

While we’re finished with Doug Hamp, who has shown himself totally impervious to hearing or responsibly responding to the many points brought up in this thread, there are some issues and questions raised that we could benefit from with further illumination, Lord willing.

I’m quoting from various responses in the order they were posted.

From Brandon, addressing Doug on quoting from Josephus:

First, who was Josephus? Not a believer in Christ. Many scholars and his contemporaries thought he was conceited and a traitor to his own kind as he sat idly by and watched Jerusalem burn working for Titus. Sure, he was an instrument of God to bring judgment upon Israel, "in like manner" as Judas was to Jesus in his betrayal.

So quoting a non-believer as though he would have an understanding of the spiritual meaning of Scripture is a weak way to start off.

Was Josephus a traitor like Judas? Judas betrayed “innocent blood,” whereas Josephus urged the Jewish defenders of Jerusalem to surrender, because God was on the Roman’s side. That wasn’t traitorous – it was telling the truth that would have saved the lives of Josephus’ people, had they listened. What, should he have gone down with them in their rebellion and stubbornness?

I’m not speaking in defense of Josephus, however, or suggesting he had no flaws or self-preserving motives. The real point here is this: If you’re going to impugn the testimony of a non-believer, should you use the testimony of other non-believers that is possibly tainted by their own motives, in this case possibly defending themselves (Israel) as innocent when the Scriptures say the opposite?

Furthermore, even if perchance you were correct, you don’t need to go there. The principle here is that Doug was using a historian’s account, in this case Josephus, who no doubt was repeating what he had heard or been taught by men and not of God. Doug, not having faith, revelation, or understanding in the things of God, uses men without the Spirit as his proof source to explain the Scriptures, unwittingly supporting doctrine that comes against the Word of God. This is always the case with those who are relying on their carnal minds:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14 MKJV).

Here’s another topic you brought up, Brandon, worth further consideration, I believe:

Now, your take on Jude is about as stable as a house of cards. Let's compare a few other versions of Jude 1:7 to see how the translation came out:

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (ESV)

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.(KJV)

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to impurity, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Webster's)

as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering. (Young's Literal)

You're trying to stretch here and say that the sexual sins of Sodom and Gamorrah are being called "in like manner" to the angels mentioned. That's not how it reads at all, for even those with common sense. How can angels have sex? What did Christ say?

“But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”
Matthew 22:29-30

There's no sexes and no marriage in the heavenly realm. This isn't the Islamic paradise where the afterlife is filled with orgies. Sex is of the flesh. Angels are spirit. There's no need for marriage, because there's no need for sex and reproduction (the essential need for godly marriage in the world) because Heaven is not of the flesh.

What's a more likely and rational reading of those verses you quoted is that the angels who rebelled had impure, unnatural (rebellious) desires. They thought to usurp God, to rebel against Him, and Sodom and Gamorrah did in their pride as well. That's the comparison. Besides isn't it said that sexual immorality/coveting after the flesh in an ungodly way is idolatry?

“For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.” Ephesians 5:5

Therefore, it is easy to see that Sodom and Gamorrah idolized sex and the flesh, and acted as those angels who idolized themselves by thinking to usurp God. That's what Satan and the man of sin does, seek to establish himself as God.

Also, if the angels committed sexual sins, why not say that in verse 5 and 6 before mentioning Sodom and Gamorrah? The comparison being made is one of judgment, not an act of sexual immorality; the sin shared is rebellion against God's authority, not carnal desires.

Could it not be, however, that the angels spoken of in Jude are human and not spiritual messengers? Consider:

The subject of the Scriptures in Jude is men (not angels from Heaven) who deny the Lord our God. And there are specific sins mentioned committed by these men, which we know angels from heaven don’t commit – namely fornication with humans and going after “strange flesh.”

The Sodomites wanted to rape the men who came to Lot’s house. Is that not going after “strange flesh”? As well, note that the men of Sodom didn’t see these men as angelic beings:

“And they called to Lot, and said to him, ‘Where are the men which came in to you this night? Bring them out to us, that we may know them’” (Genesis 19:5 MKJV).

So who are those “angels” mentioned in verse 7, who in like manner left their God-given places to go after flesh that wasn’t lawful or right for them to commingle with? Are they not the very sons of God mentioned in Genesis 6?

“The sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were good. And they took wives for themselves from all whom they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:2-3 MKJV).

Did not these men not leave their God-appointed stations and come under the judgment described, not only by Jude, but also by Peter?

2 Peter 2:4-6 ESV
(4) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
(5) if He did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
(6) if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes He condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

And here Peter describes just who those angels kept in chains of darkness were, who sinned and were destroyed in the flood:

1 Peter 3:18-20 MKJV
(18) For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
(19) in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(20) to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water);

Some may say those are spiritual messengers, not men, but for whom did Christ suffer, “that He might bring us to God”?

And going back to “strange flesh,” doesn’t the Word of God warn His sons not to lust after the strange woman?

“And why will you, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?” (Proverbs 5:20 MKJV)

Didn’t the wisest of kings fall by not keeping God’s Word in this matter?

“But king Solomon loved many strange women… and when Solomon was old, his wives turned away his heart after other gods… And the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned from the LORD, the God of Israel, Who had appeared to him twice” (1 Kings 11:1,4,9 MKJV).

As we talked about subject here, Ronnie brought up these words of the Lord:

“And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:26-27 KJV).

Is the Lord not talking about marriages between human beings? Do we presently see angels from Heaven marrying women? Or do we see ungodly alliances and mixture of flesh and spirit?

Is the work of God directed through Christ on earth for the salvation of angels or men?

Hebrews 2:14-16 MKJV
(14) Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil),
(15) and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(16) For truly He did not take the nature of angels, but He took hold of the seed of Abraham.

Brian, doesn’t this explanation help us understand what’s at stake for us with regards to the example of those who went before us and fell? You asked Doug the following:

Doug I can’t help but wonder where you think this theory (fallen angels) is going, or what purpose it serves in the kingdom of God.

I turn up at one of your conferences and you fill my head with all this knowledge about fallen angels that came to earth and had sex with women. So fine, now I know all that, what good is it to me? Am I living the word of God? Does my life reflect that of one who purports to follow Christ? What happens to these people who come to your meetings and sit for hours while you feed them all this information?

But when we know that we are the subject – we are the ones given the responsibility to follow the Lord and keep ourselves from unlawful worldly lusts and connections, from physical and spiritual fornication and commingling - then the message becomes personal and instructive.

1 Corinthians 10:6-11 MKJV
(6) And these things were our examples, that we should not be lusters after evil, as they also lusted.
(7) Nor should we be idolaters, even as some of them, as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
(8) Nor let us commit fornication, as some of them fornicated, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
(9) Nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted Him and were destroyed by serpents.
(10) Nor murmur as some of them also murmured and were destroyed by the destroyer.
(11) And all these things happened to them as examples; and it is written for our warning on whom the ends of the world have come.

Simon, you wrote:

Doug, how dare you sell what you think are the things of God, revelations that you think He has freely given to you. That makes you a hypocrite, a liar, a thief and a scoundrel. Even though most of, if not all of the things you peddle on your website are crap, the fact you think they come from God, selling them is wrong and it is antichrist by nature, as are you.

As with every question or issue posed to Doug, he doesn’t acknowledge or answer the substance of Truth, but instead ignores or deflects, as he does in this case, where he wrote to us (not posted):

"Why bring up money? I work very hard and most of my money comes from investments and businesses that I have rather than ministry related."

In other words, after getting whipped out of the temple by the Lord Jesus Christ, Doug is the fellow who says to Him, “Chill out - I only do this stuff on the side – most of my money comes from investments and businesses I own.”

Brandon, you wrote:

So his end game would simply be to convince people Jesus Christ died for their sins and to wait for the "rapture." All the speculation and analysis would then just be for kicks by that reasoning, or perhaps a Kirk Cameron-esque scare tactic into "winning souls"?

Exactly – no faith, no repentance, no striving to enter into the Kingdom, enduring to the end. Just entertainment deflecting one from the serious issues needing God’s direction and Spirit to navigate.

Simon, you wrote about the nature of devils and angels being set in them, unchangeable:

My thoughts were, that if the devil or his angels (demons) can’t change their design and if and of themselves they can’t repent and become honest and true, and I’m not just talking about saying true things and representing themselves as angels of light, which we know they do (2 Cor 11:14), but actually changing their ways and turn to good, then why would angels of light created to do other things as God commands, be any more able to change their design and turn bad and go against God’s wishes. Man doesn’t have free will (Phil 2:13), and it appears that the angels, either good or bad don’t either. So then, how could angels (sons of God as Doug wrongly misrepresented them as) go against their design?

Can anything or anyone operate outside the will of God? NO, NO and NO. Praise be to the name of our God, our Saviour, the Author and Finisher of our faith, the Alpha and Omega, the Lord Jesus Christ. All glory and honour to Him, Amen.

Yes, amen, all glory and honor to Him! The Scriptures do say we will judge angels. What exactly does that mean? There are many things we don’t fully see or understand, if at all, but we do learn to know that the Lord is over all and does all things well. His faith brings us rest.

Brandon, you write:

Best to stick with revelation from God and not dabble in mythologies.

Yes, and dabbling leads to drowning. Those who believe take heed to the Word of God revealed through Jesus Christ and His Body, all by His grace:

“Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned” (1 Timothy 1:4-5 KJV.

“Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness” (1 Timothy 4:7 ESV.

“For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear. And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths” (2 Timothy 4:3-4 MKJV.

“Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth” (Titus 1:14 KJV.

“For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty” (2 Peter 1:16 KJV.

[Kat Parker]

Hello to all,
Because this came up again, even though thankfully you are done with Doug Hamp; I do have a couple of questions. Hebrews 13:2 KJV says, "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Does this mean angels can come in the form of man?

And last. Genesis and Hebrews speaks of Enoch, who walked with God. Apparently there is a book of Enoch. And it can be found on line. Years ago I printed it out. I never did really read it through. When all of this stuff came up with Hamp, I saw it again. I very briefly read stuff about angels that came down from mount Hermon etc. ? Enoch also referred to the, Watchers? I quickly shut this down, in fear and repented for even going there; because God did not allow this writing to be in the Bible or it would be there, right? Based on all of the back and forth with Hamp, I wondered why he didn't refer to this book? Maybe because it's not a book in the Bible? I thought angels did what Hamp said, but I never really thought much about it until all of this came up. Thankfully, I have come away from that thinking.

Still here and thankful for the truth at TPOT.

[Brandon LaBerteaux]

Thank you Paul for the lengthy and edifying correction.

You are correct regarding Josephus, I believe I was trying to make an erroneous comparison in the style of Doug's but it got lost in translation. Either way, you are right when you say his situation is different from Judas's and that his critics may be influenced by their own selfish interests.

Still learning and experiencing how to engage in these sort of conversations, so I am thankful for the correction and instruction. It certainly feels like spiritual warfare, as Victor has said, and I am thankful for how the Lord provides the tools and the victories when He does.

Regarding angels, messengers, and sons of God, I can accept what you say based on Scriptures provided by you and Ronnie, but perhaps someone can clear up the matter of the third of angels who were given to Satan? Is this men too? Lord willing, it shall be revealed.

It's no matter to me, regarding salvation, the knowledge of angels and demons and judged angels and what not, but I do see that there is a lot of doctrinal confusion around these subjects as witnessed in this exchange with Doug. We in our carnality will go to all lengths to complicate the simple work of Salvation.

[Paul Cohen]

You're welcome, Brandon.

To be clear, what I gave here was correction in a principle, not motive or regarding any sin. I'm very thankful that you and others among us have been given to say many true things on this Forum and on Facebook, hitting the target as we've seen in this thread. I wrote what I did here to help you and the others moving forward, that you will be even better equipped in faith and patience to counter the enemy and shine the light in darkness.

I appreciate the spirit in which you're speaking, Brandon, which is above all the most important thing.

[Steve Beiler]

Hi everyone,

Thank You Lord Jesus for such Wisdom and discernment given to man!

I'm so thankful for the TRUTH being represented here on the forum, be it teaching , correcting, rebuking,however The Lord leads!
I am so amazed at the difference, how correction is received among believers versus non believers.

Thank You Lord Jesus, All Glory to You!

[Mark Pearson]

"I am so amazed at the difference, how correction is received among believers versus non believers."

Thanks Steve, and all others. I agree with how I see humble reception of correction here on TPOT. I'd like to add, that I've been seeing way too many "believers" in my life: friends, family, and church goers, who do not receive correction very well or at all. I'm very thankful for the TPOT community, where truth is paramount, led by real men of God. Correction is real love. Society thinks agreeing with everyone is love, and way too many professed Christians agree with society.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:20-21 ESV).

You are all so awesome!

Blessings to you all,

Mark Pearson

[Beryl Knipe]

Amen and thank you to all who responded to Doug.
Beryl.

[Paul Cohen]

Hello to all,
Because this came up again, even though thankfully you are done with Doug Hamp; I do have a couple of questions. Hebrews 13:2 KJV says, "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares." Does this mean angels can come in the form of man?

And last. Genesis and Hebrews speaks of Enoch, who walked with God. Apparently there is a book of Enoch. And it can be found on line. Years ago I printed it out. I never did really read it through. When all of this stuff came up with Hamp, I saw it again. I very briefly read stuff about angels that came down from mount Hermon etc. ? Enoch also referred to the, Watchers? I quickly shut this down, in fear and repented for even going there; because God did not allow this writing to be in the Bible or it would be there, right? Based on all of the back and forth with Hamp, I wondered why he didn't refer to this book? Maybe because it's not a book in the Bible? I thought angels did what Hamp said, but I never really thought much about it until all of this came up. Thankfully, I have come away from that thinking.

Still here and thankful for the truth at TPOT.

Hi Kat,

Can angels come in the form of men? Yes, most certainly. Scripture mentions several times that angels appear as men, as with Abraham and what followed at Sodom, with Jacob when he was on his way to meet Esau, with Manoah and his wife before the birth of Samson, with Joshua as the Israelites prepared to take the land, and even at the Lord's empty tomb.

As for "The Book of Enoch" that's in circulation today - it isn't the book written by Enoch. It's a counterfeit, using the fact that the Bible makes mention of such a book and since it's not available, men can and have made up what they want, calling it "The Book of Enoch."

[Brian McDonald]

Good to know that Paul. (Book of Enoch not being the real one) I have red a few chapters of it online and was very bewildered by it all, more confused than enlightened. By God’s grace I was not given over. Those who willingly promote and follow such things are easily carried away with every new wave that comes along. Before they know it, they have stepped into the realm of fantasy (strong delusion) and the truth becomes lost on them. It is good that these topics are talked about and are available here, on the forum and within the pages of TPOT, so that those who are seeking the truth can read them.

[Kat Parker]

Yes, thank you Paul.