Victor, what does 1 Thess. 5:23 mean to you?
I am a spirit, I live in a body, and as a result I express myself with my soul.
The blood of Jesus was for God. It proved to Him the work was done, purchasing our forgiveness and our crucifiction!
Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
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Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Hi Mike,
Help us out here. Who do you think we're talking to when we discuss the error of the trinity with you? Are you an unbeliever or a believer? Are you not professing to know Christ and His work done at the cross? Are you not professing also to have taken up the cross to follow Him? Aren't you suggesting we shouldn't say anything at all since you claim to be knowledgeable in these things, and that we should just let you continue in error you believe to be truth?
Where is the brotherly love in that?
As a fellow believer, shouldn't we be able to talk to you about doctrine, especially a doctrine as pernicious as the trinity, whose worshippers persecute, even to the point of cruel death, believers in Christ who don't bow down to their gods?
We're not convinced you see that the trinity has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ, God our Father and His Spirit. Do we truly believe in the same God, after all?
If you were walking in the knowledge of the cross of Christ, as you claim, then how come every false doctrine hasn't been taken care of for you, as you declare it should be? How is it you resist us and defend something carnal, “born of the devil through man's flesh”? How is it you don't receive what we're saying?
“We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6 MKJV).
And just how does the preaching of the cross (which is what we preach to all) take care of every false doctrine, in your opinion? Give us the specifics of what that preaching looks like and how it works in the life of those who come to faith to banish every false doctrine and lie. Then we may have more to say, Lord willing.
Paul & Victor
Help us out here. Who do you think we're talking to when we discuss the error of the trinity with you? Are you an unbeliever or a believer? Are you not professing to know Christ and His work done at the cross? Are you not professing also to have taken up the cross to follow Him? Aren't you suggesting we shouldn't say anything at all since you claim to be knowledgeable in these things, and that we should just let you continue in error you believe to be truth?
Where is the brotherly love in that?
As a fellow believer, shouldn't we be able to talk to you about doctrine, especially a doctrine as pernicious as the trinity, whose worshippers persecute, even to the point of cruel death, believers in Christ who don't bow down to their gods?
We're not convinced you see that the trinity has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ, God our Father and His Spirit. Do we truly believe in the same God, after all?
If you were walking in the knowledge of the cross of Christ, as you claim, then how come every false doctrine hasn't been taken care of for you, as you declare it should be? How is it you resist us and defend something carnal, “born of the devil through man's flesh”? How is it you don't receive what we're saying?
“We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6 MKJV).
And just how does the preaching of the cross (which is what we preach to all) take care of every false doctrine, in your opinion? Give us the specifics of what that preaching looks like and how it works in the life of those who come to faith to banish every false doctrine and lie. Then we may have more to say, Lord willing.
Paul & Victor
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul,
In my own experience, when I was revealed Jesus and "immersed" in His Spirit, I understood the Trinity. It was born out of revelation not information. I have talked to thousands in my Prison ministry over the years and that is one thing in common with believers and non-believers. Believers understand it and unbelievers don't.
Religion attempts to take what they read in the Bible or Koran etc. and make it theirs in their own carnal strength and we know how that manifests. They will cling on to it to their deaths and murder those who oppose them. I have read plenty of church history and see what caused the atrocities of the past and they are still going on.
Where I am coming from is that if we overly attack "false doctrine" instead of "shouting from the housetops" the cure, we lose that gracious, agape' love that is what is so important to convict the "mistaken" and lost world. Again, I am definitely not saying you guys should stop your work at exposing lies but I just feel tempering it with Grace a little more is vital. I have been dealing with Robert on Linkedin for a year and at times have gotten out of what is "good" and proper in my rhetoric. He is totally "under the Law" but will not see it. I have learned and am still learning to keep the peace of God in all things and Love him anyway.
Keep up the good work,
You are doing good!!
Mike
In my own experience, when I was revealed Jesus and "immersed" in His Spirit, I understood the Trinity. It was born out of revelation not information. I have talked to thousands in my Prison ministry over the years and that is one thing in common with believers and non-believers. Believers understand it and unbelievers don't.
Religion attempts to take what they read in the Bible or Koran etc. and make it theirs in their own carnal strength and we know how that manifests. They will cling on to it to their deaths and murder those who oppose them. I have read plenty of church history and see what caused the atrocities of the past and they are still going on.
Where I am coming from is that if we overly attack "false doctrine" instead of "shouting from the housetops" the cure, we lose that gracious, agape' love that is what is so important to convict the "mistaken" and lost world. Again, I am definitely not saying you guys should stop your work at exposing lies but I just feel tempering it with Grace a little more is vital. I have been dealing with Robert on Linkedin for a year and at times have gotten out of what is "good" and proper in my rhetoric. He is totally "under the Law" but will not see it. I have learned and am still learning to keep the peace of God in all things and Love him anyway.
Keep up the good work,
You are doing good!!
Mike
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Mike, you ask, "Victor, what does 1 Thess. 5:23 mean to you?"
Paul is blessing the saints, speaking that which shall be: “And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:23 MKJV).
When God's work is complete through God's instrumentality and work (His Son), man will be as God, set apart from creation (sanctified), man being that portion of creation completed in His image, even as Jesus Christ in the flesh was the Express Image of God, the Son being His Manifestation to this world:
“Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2 MKJV).
You say, “I am a spirit, I live in a body, and as a result I express myself with my soul.”
That perspective or opinion sounds like it has something, but does it? And what is your point?
“The blood of Jesus was for God. It proved to Him the work was done, purchasing our forgiveness and our crucifiction!”
Mike, it seems you err in either understanding or grammatical composition or both. What need would God have to prove anything to Himself, or as you, a Trinitarian might put it, have need of proof from His Only Begotten Son, as though the salvation of mankind wasn't the Father's doing in the first place? Are you saying the Father needed some kind of guarantee or proof of purchase? If so, your doctrine is bizarre and anti-Scriptural! Either the God of Whom you express yourself is not the God we know or you're in need of much instruction doctrinally.
Your aversion to good doctrine as we're experiencing would explain your ignorance and confusion.
You fearfully resist the truth. Why? Because you may get kicked out of your “synagogue?” Is it because you may lose some social companionship and other benefits of this world? Will those in positions of power no longer permit you to buy and sell without the mark? Is it because you'll be a pariah among professing believers? Is that it?
Or is it that you prefer yourself and your sins to the Lord and hearing the Truth will consequently require obedience on your part, which will make the suffering of the cross a reality in your life?
As to “purchasing our crucifixion,” Jesus Christ has paved the way for us to be reconciled to God through the blood and His cross, so yes, those words can be true. However, more explicitly put, He gave us the right to become His sons by our taking up the cross and crucifying the lusts of our flesh.
Jesus Christ didn't “do it all” for us; He made all perfectly available for us - something we could never do by or for ourselves. He has granted us gracious power to deny ourselves and take up the cross to follow Him.
“Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me” (Matthew 16:24 MKJV).
“But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts” (Galatians 5:24 MKJV).
It's the same for forgiveness. By His grace and sacrifice, we don't automatically have forgiveness without anything required of us - no “greasy grace” here, which is a dis-grace to God. We're granted the right and opportunity for forgiveness, whereas we were formerly without hope, but we have opportunity to repent and confess our sin and sins:
“From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17 MKJV).
As to your assertion that unbelievers don't understand the Trinity but believers have no problem, that has not remotely been our experience. Unbelievers can't understand anything of the Kingdom, much less the abominable Trinitarian doctrine. We have spoken to countless people about it and not one understands this convolution, not one.
You don't understand it, either; you may think you do because you choose to defend this worldly powerful thing that has come not from the fathers and saints of the true faith but from Nimrod's wife, Semiramis, who came to be known as Ashtoreth, Astarte, Easter, Ishtar, Diana, the queen of Heaven, and several other names in various cultures...including the Madonna of Catholicism.
When you deal in the Trinity, Christmas (rebirth of Baal - Nimrod in Tammuz), and Easter (worship of Ishtar/Ashtoreth), among other doctrines and celebrations, you are dealing with none other than THE anti-Christ. It is deception; it is strong delusion.
As to those who murder their doctrinal opponents, Trinitarian John Calvin had brother-in-Christ Michael Servetus burned at the stake with green faggots to prolong his torturous death. We have never seen or heard of “oneness” believers do anything like this to Trinitarians because they were Trinitarians.
However, it should go without saying that if there are carnal “oneness” proponents, they are surely as capable of doing the same as did Calvin. True believers will not do such things.
So your experiences and assertions are VERY different from ours, it appears.
We would still appreciate your answers to the questions we've asked you - they were by no means rhetorical, as it seems you've deemed them to be.
Victor
Paul is blessing the saints, speaking that which shall be: “And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:23 MKJV).
When God's work is complete through God's instrumentality and work (His Son), man will be as God, set apart from creation (sanctified), man being that portion of creation completed in His image, even as Jesus Christ in the flesh was the Express Image of God, the Son being His Manifestation to this world:
“Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2 MKJV).
You say, “I am a spirit, I live in a body, and as a result I express myself with my soul.”
That perspective or opinion sounds like it has something, but does it? And what is your point?
“The blood of Jesus was for God. It proved to Him the work was done, purchasing our forgiveness and our crucifiction!”
Mike, it seems you err in either understanding or grammatical composition or both. What need would God have to prove anything to Himself, or as you, a Trinitarian might put it, have need of proof from His Only Begotten Son, as though the salvation of mankind wasn't the Father's doing in the first place? Are you saying the Father needed some kind of guarantee or proof of purchase? If so, your doctrine is bizarre and anti-Scriptural! Either the God of Whom you express yourself is not the God we know or you're in need of much instruction doctrinally.
Your aversion to good doctrine as we're experiencing would explain your ignorance and confusion.
You fearfully resist the truth. Why? Because you may get kicked out of your “synagogue?” Is it because you may lose some social companionship and other benefits of this world? Will those in positions of power no longer permit you to buy and sell without the mark? Is it because you'll be a pariah among professing believers? Is that it?
Or is it that you prefer yourself and your sins to the Lord and hearing the Truth will consequently require obedience on your part, which will make the suffering of the cross a reality in your life?
As to “purchasing our crucifixion,” Jesus Christ has paved the way for us to be reconciled to God through the blood and His cross, so yes, those words can be true. However, more explicitly put, He gave us the right to become His sons by our taking up the cross and crucifying the lusts of our flesh.
Jesus Christ didn't “do it all” for us; He made all perfectly available for us - something we could never do by or for ourselves. He has granted us gracious power to deny ourselves and take up the cross to follow Him.
“Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me” (Matthew 16:24 MKJV).
“But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts” (Galatians 5:24 MKJV).
It's the same for forgiveness. By His grace and sacrifice, we don't automatically have forgiveness without anything required of us - no “greasy grace” here, which is a dis-grace to God. We're granted the right and opportunity for forgiveness, whereas we were formerly without hope, but we have opportunity to repent and confess our sin and sins:
“From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17 MKJV).
As to your assertion that unbelievers don't understand the Trinity but believers have no problem, that has not remotely been our experience. Unbelievers can't understand anything of the Kingdom, much less the abominable Trinitarian doctrine. We have spoken to countless people about it and not one understands this convolution, not one.
You don't understand it, either; you may think you do because you choose to defend this worldly powerful thing that has come not from the fathers and saints of the true faith but from Nimrod's wife, Semiramis, who came to be known as Ashtoreth, Astarte, Easter, Ishtar, Diana, the queen of Heaven, and several other names in various cultures...including the Madonna of Catholicism.
When you deal in the Trinity, Christmas (rebirth of Baal - Nimrod in Tammuz), and Easter (worship of Ishtar/Ashtoreth), among other doctrines and celebrations, you are dealing with none other than THE anti-Christ. It is deception; it is strong delusion.
As to those who murder their doctrinal opponents, Trinitarian John Calvin had brother-in-Christ Michael Servetus burned at the stake with green faggots to prolong his torturous death. We have never seen or heard of “oneness” believers do anything like this to Trinitarians because they were Trinitarians.
However, it should go without saying that if there are carnal “oneness” proponents, they are surely as capable of doing the same as did Calvin. True believers will not do such things.
So your experiences and assertions are VERY different from ours, it appears.
We would still appreciate your answers to the questions we've asked you - they were by no means rhetorical, as it seems you've deemed them to be.
Victor
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Victor, I completely understand your response and have these comments:
Contrary to your assertion that I am a "Trinitarian", I am not, at least not in the way you explain it. It is the way I see it in the Spirit who is my ONLY teacher. This body, soul, and spirit observation is NOT the focal point of any of my preaching or teaching others. I mention it only when asked my opinion about it. Any doctrine can be taken to an extreme and therefore loses its truth in the Holy Spirit.
Here are the differences I see in our doctrine. You say that many of the accomplishments of Christ at Calvary are for the future and I say all of them "except" the glorification of our bodies, belong to us in the here and the now. For instance: We have already been sanctified completely. It is NOT a process! "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who ARE sanctified" Heb 10:14 Since God placed us "in Christ" we live in the Spirit and not according to the flesh. "Now are we the Sons of God" and "...even as He is so are we in this world" and "we are members of His flesh and of His bones" and "ye are dead and your life is HIDDEN with Christ IN GOD." and "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God..." and finally, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Call it what you want but by my count is they are a Trinity. The Tabernacle of Moses(shadow of Jesus) had three separate entities within one House. The outer court,(flesh), the inner court,(soul) and the most holiest, (spirit). We are three, made in His image, Body, Soul, and Spirit.
One more thing: God "REQUIRED" blood! At the Exodus from Egypt, the blood had to be applied on the doorpost for judgement to pass. GOD REQUIRED IT!! When "HE" saw it death passed over. When God saw the blood of Jesus at the whipping post HE forgave us because "we" had to be punished (in Him). "The chastisement that was required for us to obtain peace with God was upon Him." Isa. 53:5 Sin is in the blood so He became Sin so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. When God "SAW" the blood from the five places on Christ's body He declared us DEAD (in Him). Our sinful selves perished "in Christ" and sin shall NEVER have dominion over us again. Jesus had declared, " Now is the judgment of this world, NOW is the prince of this world cast out." "All those who look, (at the serpent hanging on the pole) will be healed."
God required blood as proof that the work had been done. It was the marker for Him to see, and HE could finally rest from HIS labors and once again call it "good".
I think it would be much more profitable that we NOT have an accusatory tone with each other just because we disagree. I want to learn from you as well as you need to learn from me as our goals are to "edify" and to build up, correct. I don't want to be wrong any more than you do but you guys don't know everything yet and neither do I. In His Love, Mike
Contrary to your assertion that I am a "Trinitarian", I am not, at least not in the way you explain it. It is the way I see it in the Spirit who is my ONLY teacher. This body, soul, and spirit observation is NOT the focal point of any of my preaching or teaching others. I mention it only when asked my opinion about it. Any doctrine can be taken to an extreme and therefore loses its truth in the Holy Spirit.
Here are the differences I see in our doctrine. You say that many of the accomplishments of Christ at Calvary are for the future and I say all of them "except" the glorification of our bodies, belong to us in the here and the now. For instance: We have already been sanctified completely. It is NOT a process! "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who ARE sanctified" Heb 10:14 Since God placed us "in Christ" we live in the Spirit and not according to the flesh. "Now are we the Sons of God" and "...even as He is so are we in this world" and "we are members of His flesh and of His bones" and "ye are dead and your life is HIDDEN with Christ IN GOD." and "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God..." and finally, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Call it what you want but by my count is they are a Trinity. The Tabernacle of Moses(shadow of Jesus) had three separate entities within one House. The outer court,(flesh), the inner court,(soul) and the most holiest, (spirit). We are three, made in His image, Body, Soul, and Spirit.
One more thing: God "REQUIRED" blood! At the Exodus from Egypt, the blood had to be applied on the doorpost for judgement to pass. GOD REQUIRED IT!! When "HE" saw it death passed over. When God saw the blood of Jesus at the whipping post HE forgave us because "we" had to be punished (in Him). "The chastisement that was required for us to obtain peace with God was upon Him." Isa. 53:5 Sin is in the blood so He became Sin so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. When God "SAW" the blood from the five places on Christ's body He declared us DEAD (in Him). Our sinful selves perished "in Christ" and sin shall NEVER have dominion over us again. Jesus had declared, " Now is the judgment of this world, NOW is the prince of this world cast out." "All those who look, (at the serpent hanging on the pole) will be healed."
God required blood as proof that the work had been done. It was the marker for Him to see, and HE could finally rest from HIS labors and once again call it "good".
I think it would be much more profitable that we NOT have an accusatory tone with each other just because we disagree. I want to learn from you as well as you need to learn from me as our goals are to "edify" and to build up, correct. I don't want to be wrong any more than you do but you guys don't know everything yet and neither do I. In His Love, Mike
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Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Mike, Paul here.
You aren't consistent in the spiritual principles you espouse. You say in your reply to Victor:
“This body, soul, and spirit observation is NOT the focal point of any of my preaching or teaching others. I mention it only when asked my opinion about it.”
We never asked your opinion, nor did we want it. You volunteered your opinion by replying to a letter we wrote a trinitarian, then proceeded to argue with us when we told you the truth from the Scriptures. What you continue to argue with us doesn't make sense or jive with the testimony of God amply provided in our letters and website section on The Trinity.
You write us now:
“'For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.' Call it what you want but by my count is they are a Trinity.”
Aren't you aware that this is a manmade addition to the Scriptures? Haven't you red our writings on this topic? Yet you continue to waste our time by having to tell you these things on account of your negligence, giving us opinions we haven't asked for and refusing to read or listen to our well laid out case against the trinity.
Not only have you given us an apocryphal Scripture reference here, but what is actually written by John in the letter you cite has nothing whatsoever to do with the trinity:
“For there are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one” (1 John 5:7-8 EMTV).
This declaration is only about Jesus Christ - Who He is, and how He came.
You say in your defense (denying your doctrine is trinitarian while continuing to argue for the trinity):
“We are three, made in His image, Body, Soul, and Spirit.”
A lamp with bulb, switch and stand doesn't make it 3 lamps; there is no repetition, no trinity of any kind. We are created in parts but it doesn't make us 3 persons.
“Any doctrine can be taken to an extreme and therefore loses its truth in the Holy Spirit.”
But we've shown you that you're off base, heading on a tangent and not towards the Morning Star. Your error is only more readily exposed by your fellow trinitarians who take it further along, demonstrating how astray your thinking is.
None of what we're telling you is accusation, but the facts, provided to you painstakingly and lovingly in the Truth, Whom you thus far despise. We've proven what we know, Mike, and Whom we know, which shows how you don't know what you're talking about. So if you don't know you should stop arguing and start listening. It's simple enough, but as I stated at the beginning of this letter, you don't adhere to your own principles, let alone God's.
You're confused and confounded, which are hallmarks of the whore, not the Shepherd of the sheep.
You continue your letter with another matter on which you disagree with us, giving us another of your unfounded opinions:
“We have already been sanctified completely. It is NOT a process! 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who ARE sanctified' Heb 10:14”
Wrong. Here's the sequence in Hebrews with a better translation, wherein everything fits together without promoting the presumptuous misunderstanding you operate under:
Hebrews 10:7-14 EMTV
(7) Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--In the volume of the book it is written of Me-- To do Your will, O God.' "
(8) Earlier saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and sacrifices for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
(9) then He has said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first in order that He may establish the second.
(10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all [the perfect and complete offering of the Lord is the focus here, not those being sanctified].
(11) And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which are never able to take away sins.
(12) But He Himself, having offered one sacrifice for sins forever, He sat down at the right hand of God,
(13) from that time waiting till His enemies are placed as a footstool for His feet.
(14) For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are BEING sanctified.
It's the offering that is complete, not our sanctification upon initial faith.
“And you will be hated by all on account of My Name. But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Mark 13:13 EMTV).
“And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth [believing and obeying]” (John 17:19 KJV).
1 Thessalonians 5:15-24 MKJV
(15) See that none gives evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue the good, both towards one another and towards all.
(16) Rejoice evermore.
(17) Pray without ceasing.
(18) In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
(19) Do not quench the Spirit.
(20) Do not despise prophesying.
(21) Prove all things, hold fast to the good.
(22) Abstain from every appearance of evil.
(23) And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(24) Faithful is He Who called you, Who also WILL do it.
You presume to have something you don't, Mike. By God's grace, we know all about His blood shed for us. What you don't know is that your blood is required to fully and worthily partake of His blood. You can only enter into the promise and reality of full salvation through His cross. Read How One Is Saved and The Cross - Only the Death Sentence Will Avail.
You say, “Our sinful selves perished 'in Christ' and sin shall NEVER have dominion over us again.”
“Our sinful selves perished”? Yet Paul said:
“But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be rejected” (1 Corinthians 9:27 MKJV).
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find” (Romans 7:18 MKJV).
“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin” (Romans 7:25 MKJV).
Do you believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all men? So do we. However, perhaps you need to read The Deadly Error of the Universalists.
You say, “I want to learn from you as well as you need to learn from me as our goals are to "edify" and to build up, correct. I don't want to be wrong any more than you do but you guys don't know everything yet and neither do I.”
We ask you then to learn from us what we do know that you don't. Why do you resist if you don't want to be wrong? Isn't it because you think we're wrong and you're right?
We don't want to be wrong, but we also don't want YOU to be wrong.
You don't have the parity you presume to with the Lord and His servants. We won't strive with you if you insist on maintaining this delusion.
By the way, Mike, I, Victor, red Watchman Nee's Sit, Walk and Stand again. What I saw with him after receiving the Spirit decades ago, I continue to see today; nothing has changed. Nee is condescending, i.e. “I have this great understanding of the things of God; listen and I'll explain them to you; I'll show you, my little children, just how spiritual I am.”
I don't see Nee as a man sent of God, but as one presuming to be a man of God with his studiousness, knowledge, intelligence, diplomacy and eloquence. He wasn't a sanctified vessel, that is, separated for God's use as He saw fit. He claimed sanctification but I don't see it. It is powerful deception.
Paul and Victor
You aren't consistent in the spiritual principles you espouse. You say in your reply to Victor:
“This body, soul, and spirit observation is NOT the focal point of any of my preaching or teaching others. I mention it only when asked my opinion about it.”
We never asked your opinion, nor did we want it. You volunteered your opinion by replying to a letter we wrote a trinitarian, then proceeded to argue with us when we told you the truth from the Scriptures. What you continue to argue with us doesn't make sense or jive with the testimony of God amply provided in our letters and website section on The Trinity.
You write us now:
“'For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.' Call it what you want but by my count is they are a Trinity.”
Aren't you aware that this is a manmade addition to the Scriptures? Haven't you red our writings on this topic? Yet you continue to waste our time by having to tell you these things on account of your negligence, giving us opinions we haven't asked for and refusing to read or listen to our well laid out case against the trinity.
Not only have you given us an apocryphal Scripture reference here, but what is actually written by John in the letter you cite has nothing whatsoever to do with the trinity:
“For there are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one” (1 John 5:7-8 EMTV).
This declaration is only about Jesus Christ - Who He is, and how He came.
You say in your defense (denying your doctrine is trinitarian while continuing to argue for the trinity):
“We are three, made in His image, Body, Soul, and Spirit.”
A lamp with bulb, switch and stand doesn't make it 3 lamps; there is no repetition, no trinity of any kind. We are created in parts but it doesn't make us 3 persons.
“Any doctrine can be taken to an extreme and therefore loses its truth in the Holy Spirit.”
But we've shown you that you're off base, heading on a tangent and not towards the Morning Star. Your error is only more readily exposed by your fellow trinitarians who take it further along, demonstrating how astray your thinking is.
None of what we're telling you is accusation, but the facts, provided to you painstakingly and lovingly in the Truth, Whom you thus far despise. We've proven what we know, Mike, and Whom we know, which shows how you don't know what you're talking about. So if you don't know you should stop arguing and start listening. It's simple enough, but as I stated at the beginning of this letter, you don't adhere to your own principles, let alone God's.
You're confused and confounded, which are hallmarks of the whore, not the Shepherd of the sheep.
You continue your letter with another matter on which you disagree with us, giving us another of your unfounded opinions:
“We have already been sanctified completely. It is NOT a process! 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who ARE sanctified' Heb 10:14”
Wrong. Here's the sequence in Hebrews with a better translation, wherein everything fits together without promoting the presumptuous misunderstanding you operate under:
Hebrews 10:7-14 EMTV
(7) Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--In the volume of the book it is written of Me-- To do Your will, O God.' "
(8) Earlier saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and sacrifices for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
(9) then He has said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first in order that He may establish the second.
(10) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all [the perfect and complete offering of the Lord is the focus here, not those being sanctified].
(11) And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which are never able to take away sins.
(12) But He Himself, having offered one sacrifice for sins forever, He sat down at the right hand of God,
(13) from that time waiting till His enemies are placed as a footstool for His feet.
(14) For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are BEING sanctified.
It's the offering that is complete, not our sanctification upon initial faith.
“And you will be hated by all on account of My Name. But he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Mark 13:13 EMTV).
“And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth [believing and obeying]” (John 17:19 KJV).
1 Thessalonians 5:15-24 MKJV
(15) See that none gives evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue the good, both towards one another and towards all.
(16) Rejoice evermore.
(17) Pray without ceasing.
(18) In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
(19) Do not quench the Spirit.
(20) Do not despise prophesying.
(21) Prove all things, hold fast to the good.
(22) Abstain from every appearance of evil.
(23) And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(24) Faithful is He Who called you, Who also WILL do it.
You presume to have something you don't, Mike. By God's grace, we know all about His blood shed for us. What you don't know is that your blood is required to fully and worthily partake of His blood. You can only enter into the promise and reality of full salvation through His cross. Read How One Is Saved and The Cross - Only the Death Sentence Will Avail.
You say, “Our sinful selves perished 'in Christ' and sin shall NEVER have dominion over us again.”
“Our sinful selves perished”? Yet Paul said:
“But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be rejected” (1 Corinthians 9:27 MKJV).
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find” (Romans 7:18 MKJV).
“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin” (Romans 7:25 MKJV).
Do you believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all men? So do we. However, perhaps you need to read The Deadly Error of the Universalists.
You say, “I want to learn from you as well as you need to learn from me as our goals are to "edify" and to build up, correct. I don't want to be wrong any more than you do but you guys don't know everything yet and neither do I.”
We ask you then to learn from us what we do know that you don't. Why do you resist if you don't want to be wrong? Isn't it because you think we're wrong and you're right?
We don't want to be wrong, but we also don't want YOU to be wrong.
You don't have the parity you presume to with the Lord and His servants. We won't strive with you if you insist on maintaining this delusion.
By the way, Mike, I, Victor, red Watchman Nee's Sit, Walk and Stand again. What I saw with him after receiving the Spirit decades ago, I continue to see today; nothing has changed. Nee is condescending, i.e. “I have this great understanding of the things of God; listen and I'll explain them to you; I'll show you, my little children, just how spiritual I am.”
I don't see Nee as a man sent of God, but as one presuming to be a man of God with his studiousness, knowledge, intelligence, diplomacy and eloquence. He wasn't a sanctified vessel, that is, separated for God's use as He saw fit. He claimed sanctification but I don't see it. It is powerful deception.
Paul and Victor
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul, Maybe this explanation more clearly agrees with your non-trinity doctrine. I am a person, consisting of three parts; body, soul, and spirit. God is a person, consisting of three parts; father, son, holy spirit. I still believe it is nothing to have any heated debate over
As far as sanctification is concerned you say I am "confused" and I heartily disagree with you. It means "set apart" by definition. In Christ we were "set apart" at the Cross. Our Adamic nature died with Him and does not "rule" us at all. Yes, we can "resurrect" a dead man if we chose and therefore sin but we NEVER HAVE TO. "Reckon yourselves dead to Sin, but alive to God..." Rom. 6:11 and "ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God." Col. 3:3 "I am crucified with Christ and I NO LONGER LIVE..." Gal. 2:20 We must call things that aren't as though they are, correct? We may not "feel" dead but we are dead as far as God is concerned and must believe Him and not our feelings or experience, also correct? We can still sin just like Jesus could have sinned but "sin shall NOT have dominion over you."
Because of all that I "sanctify" myself (reckon myself dead) because of my faith in His finished work. Can a dead man sin? It does not mean "I" don't exist, it only means that the old me has no power to make me sin.
I recommend for you both to read "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee I would like your opinions. At least the first four chapters. I do know this, and have stated before, the Holy Spirit speaks through this man's teachings. Yes, he was not "totally" correct in everything but glean the "gold" tried in the fire.
Mike
As far as sanctification is concerned you say I am "confused" and I heartily disagree with you. It means "set apart" by definition. In Christ we were "set apart" at the Cross. Our Adamic nature died with Him and does not "rule" us at all. Yes, we can "resurrect" a dead man if we chose and therefore sin but we NEVER HAVE TO. "Reckon yourselves dead to Sin, but alive to God..." Rom. 6:11 and "ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God." Col. 3:3 "I am crucified with Christ and I NO LONGER LIVE..." Gal. 2:20 We must call things that aren't as though they are, correct? We may not "feel" dead but we are dead as far as God is concerned and must believe Him and not our feelings or experience, also correct? We can still sin just like Jesus could have sinned but "sin shall NOT have dominion over you."
Because of all that I "sanctify" myself (reckon myself dead) because of my faith in His finished work. Can a dead man sin? It does not mean "I" don't exist, it only means that the old me has no power to make me sin.
I recommend for you both to read "The Normal Christian Life" by Watchman Nee I would like your opinions. At least the first four chapters. I do know this, and have stated before, the Holy Spirit speaks through this man's teachings. Yes, he was not "totally" correct in everything but glean the "gold" tried in the fire.
Mike
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Paul Cohen
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Three parts are not three people, Mike. Why do you keep arguing against the simple truth?
We don't have anything further to say on the matter, but we do reserve the right to answer you if you keep debating.
As for sanctification, you're playing with words and overlooking, to your detriment and destruction, the admonitions to “strive to enter in,” and “to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” You presume you're dead when you're not. You haven't worked these things out in the Lord. Neither did Nee, which is what Victor has been trying to tell you.
We won't spend any more time reading Nee. We have amply tasted the water from his well and it's bitter. Case closed.
Paul
We don't have anything further to say on the matter, but we do reserve the right to answer you if you keep debating.
As for sanctification, you're playing with words and overlooking, to your detriment and destruction, the admonitions to “strive to enter in,” and “to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” You presume you're dead when you're not. You haven't worked these things out in the Lord. Neither did Nee, which is what Victor has been trying to tell you.
We won't spend any more time reading Nee. We have amply tasted the water from his well and it's bitter. Case closed.
Paul
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul, I don't desire just to debate you and force my beliefs down your throat and I would like it if you would do the same. I don't know if you and Victor realize that you come from a spirit of "my way or the highway" attitude. Very abrupt and abrasive at times with no consideration for others. You just come off, "you are just plain wrong, so accept our words or shut up". I know you both have done a lot of research and have a lot of experience but that should not give you the right to not show "love" and gentleness. You use the scripture as a "whip" and have NO mercy for those that do not accept immediately what you say.
Look, I was saved and filled over 40 years ago myself and yet have a lot to learn and would like to learn some of it through you guys but am still listening to the "Spirit" as my only ultimate teacher. The words "strive to enter in" I have done by believing in the entire work of the Cross to sanctify me wholly and I work out my "salvation with fear and trembling" by believing what I just told you. I have yet to see much "fear and trembling" from you guys!! I love you both and pray for you that God will continue to open "the eyes of your heart". Amen
Look, I was saved and filled over 40 years ago myself and yet have a lot to learn and would like to learn some of it through you guys but am still listening to the "Spirit" as my only ultimate teacher. The words "strive to enter in" I have done by believing in the entire work of the Cross to sanctify me wholly and I work out my "salvation with fear and trembling" by believing what I just told you. I have yet to see much "fear and trembling" from you guys!! I love you both and pray for you that God will continue to open "the eyes of your heart". Amen
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Paul Cohen
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Mike, the fact that you think we're speaking to you from research and experience just goes to show what we've been telling you is true. You don't recognize the Lord or hear His voice. You're listening to another “Spirit.”
How can you, as one who is full of himself and carnal knowledge, judge whether or not we've been patient and kind to you, especially when your essential nature is confronted with the Truth you hate?
Paul
How can you, as one who is full of himself and carnal knowledge, judge whether or not we've been patient and kind to you, especially when your essential nature is confronted with the Truth you hate?
Paul
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul, I am sorry, but your research and experience does not mean you are hearing HIS VOICE either. You accuse me of "being full of myself and carnal" but I say your cruelty and harshness with others does not come from the Holy Spirit. NO fruit of the Spirit there; just a "clanging bell" most of the time. You read "little bits" of other writers and "chalk them off completely" if you don't agree with one little thing.
I love and have loved the truth for 40 years and will continue to do so, but the truth has to come from a heart of His love for anyone to really listen. If anyone questions any thing you guys say, we are "truth haters". Come on, get over yourselves, and I am speaking this out of a heart of love. Truly Love all of us that read and want to learn at "his feet". There is a LOT of religious error out there I know, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. PLEASE!! You wrote me to welcome my opinions about your letters to those writing you, so here they are. Many of your things have good basis in truth but your attitudes spoil them for most of us. Amen
I love and have loved the truth for 40 years and will continue to do so, but the truth has to come from a heart of His love for anyone to really listen. If anyone questions any thing you guys say, we are "truth haters". Come on, get over yourselves, and I am speaking this out of a heart of love. Truly Love all of us that read and want to learn at "his feet". There is a LOT of religious error out there I know, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. PLEASE!! You wrote me to welcome my opinions about your letters to those writing you, so here they are. Many of your things have good basis in truth but your attitudes spoil them for most of us. Amen
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Paul Cohen
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
“Paul, I am sorry, but your research and experience does not mean you are hearing HIS VOICE either.”
That's what I was trying to tell you, Mike, but you can't hear.
Don't you think you should be aware of such a major problem - shouldn't we notify you? You're saying that's not love?
The reason you're deaf is because you have another love, a love that hates the Lord and hearing the truth. Read all about it here: False Love - Satans Last Stronghold.
Thinking you can hear while you're deaf has meant you've misheard all that we've said to you - in content and spirit.
We never asked for your Opinion, for example, nor have we given you our own.
We're not here to strive with you, Mike, so if you're satisfied that you're right and we're wrong, we've heard you and have done our part in this conversation. Your blood is on your own head.
Paul
That's what I was trying to tell you, Mike, but you can't hear.
Don't you think you should be aware of such a major problem - shouldn't we notify you? You're saying that's not love?
The reason you're deaf is because you have another love, a love that hates the Lord and hearing the truth. Read all about it here: False Love - Satans Last Stronghold.
Thinking you can hear while you're deaf has meant you've misheard all that we've said to you - in content and spirit.
We never asked for your Opinion, for example, nor have we given you our own.
We're not here to strive with you, Mike, so if you're satisfied that you're right and we're wrong, we've heard you and have done our part in this conversation. Your blood is on your own head.
Paul
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul, Romans tells us that "all Israel is NOT Israel." Paul said that ONLY those with the "faith" of Abraham is the Israel of God. Correct? Those people in Palestine were NEVER in sackcloth and ashes and spent an extended time of repentance and reading of the Torah before they were "sent" back to their land the way they always were in the past. Yes, in the end, God will restore some but only by Grace through faith. It isn't "replacement" that I am teaching but "inclusion" in the vine with those of revelation of Jesus Christ including those with Abrahams DNA. Those people over there for the most part are Zionists and with the sympathies of the World were allowed to reenter their former homeland. I question whether it is was God's perfect will at all!!!
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Paul Cohen
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Hi Mike,
The Lord gave us to write something about this very subject not so long ago. Step back and see the picture from the perspective He's laid out for us in Scripture and living color before our eyes in this marvelous day. Read Israel Back in the Land, as Promised.
“For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in. And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, 'There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob' (Romans 11:25-26 MKJV).
Paul
The Lord gave us to write something about this very subject not so long ago. Step back and see the picture from the perspective He's laid out for us in Scripture and living color before our eyes in this marvelous day. Read Israel Back in the Land, as Promised.
“For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in. And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, 'There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob' (Romans 11:25-26 MKJV).
Paul
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Hello Paul,
Really enjoyed your article and learned allot! However, like you said, Jesus is the "promised land" and God has restored those that believe to "possess the land." I still do not believe that the political nation of Israel is God's covenant people. Yes, He will restore "believers", and many will come in that day but ONLY those with the faith of Abraham will come in, NOT with just the DNA.
Mike
Really enjoyed your article and learned allot! However, like you said, Jesus is the "promised land" and God has restored those that believe to "possess the land." I still do not believe that the political nation of Israel is God's covenant people. Yes, He will restore "believers", and many will come in that day but ONLY those with the faith of Abraham will come in, NOT with just the DNA.
Mike
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Paul Cohen
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
“Indeed as regards the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the free gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:28-29 MKJV).
Jeremiah 31:31-34 ESV
(31) "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
(32) not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.
(33) But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put My law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
God will not only save all of Israel, Mike, whose calling yet stands, but He will save all of mankind, which only can and will happen through Messiah and faith in Him.
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order…” (1 Corinthians 15:22-23 MKJV).
Do you believe The Good News?
Paul
Jeremiah 31:31-34 ESV
(31) "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
(32) not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.
(33) But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put My law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
God will not only save all of Israel, Mike, whose calling yet stands, but He will save all of mankind, which only can and will happen through Messiah and faith in Him.
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order…” (1 Corinthians 15:22-23 MKJV).
Do you believe The Good News?
Paul
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Very good Paul! If we preach Christ and Him crucified why do we need to preach "against" anything. Paul said he ONLY knew Christ and Him Crucified. The Cross and our co-death with Jesus takes care of ALL depravity and self-righteousness within us does it not? "...can a dead man sin?"From: Paul Cohen [mailto:paul@thepathoftruth.com]
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 7:40 AM
To: David
Cc: 'Victor Hafichuk'
Subject: Re: False Teacher in Southern California
Hi David,
Gene Appel is, no doubt, a false teacher.
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Paul Cohen
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
What's your point, Mike? While God has judged us and cleansed us, we aren't here just for ourselves. Others need help - they need to hear the truth. The Lord has sent Victor and me to speak His judgment. Those for the truth receive what we've been given to speak and are delivered, just as we've been. Those who profess the Lord's Name but seek to preserve their corrupt lives in this world hear words that come against them.
“Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of My mouth, and My judgment goes forth as the light” (Hosea 6:5 ESV).
Isn't this good?
Paul
“Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of My mouth, and My judgment goes forth as the light” (Hosea 6:5 ESV).
Isn't this good?
Paul
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul, what I am trying to say is that the "ONLY" message to the lost should be Christ and Him crucified. Does not that take care of all sins and Sin? Did not Jesus come to solve that very problem. To the saved it is "Jesus fills". Since we are "ascended" with Him and seated in Glory we are engulfed in God's power and presence. So should not preaching Christ "JUDGE" them? We were all judged on that Cross with Him and as a result we have the mind of Christ and do know all things and are judged by no one.
They are slain by His Cross, isn't that good? If they believe they are forgiven, killed, raised, and ascended!!! PERFECTION!!
They are slain by His Cross, isn't that good? If they believe they are forgiven, killed, raised, and ascended!!! PERFECTION!!
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Paul Cohen
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
“They are slain by His Cross”? How can they be dead with Christ when they pointedly reject Him and despise the cross? Where do you get this stuff, Mike? Not from the Lord or His Scriptures.
But we've been around the block with you on this before. Do you still have our letters? Did you ever read the writing I gave you - The Deadly Error of the Universalists ? You should read the whole section - Universalism The False Kind.
Enough of your false doctrine, Mike. We've answered it several times now.
Paul
But we've been around the block with you on this before. Do you still have our letters? Did you ever read the writing I gave you - The Deadly Error of the Universalists ? You should read the whole section - Universalism The False Kind.
Enough of your false doctrine, Mike. We've answered it several times now.
Paul
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul, we are all "slain" by His Cross! Most do not see it because it is a revelation that God grants. "He is a rewarder to those that diligently seek Him" and "...if you seek me you will find me if you seek me with your whole heart."
I agree with you guys on many things but co-death with Jesus is a foundational doctrine. Rom. 6:11 "...reckon yourselves dead to sin but alive to God..." Col. 3:3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." This is the way God sees us!!! Do we agree?
I agree with you guys on many things but co-death with Jesus is a foundational doctrine. Rom. 6:11 "...reckon yourselves dead to sin but alive to God..." Col. 3:3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." This is the way God sees us!!! Do we agree?
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Paul Cohen
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
I see you entirely alive to yourself, Mike, not crucified with Christ at all. That's how things are, and how God sees them. All the reckoning you've done and will do hasn't changed anything because it's your work, not God's. You reckon by doctrine and mental willpower, not by taking up the cross. You're a sorcerer.
But we've been around the block with you on this before. Do you still have our letters? Did you ever read the writing I gave you - The Deadly Error of the Universalists ? You should read the whole section - Universalism The False Kind.
Enough of your false doctrine. We've answered it several times now. I'm done with you.
Paul
But we've been around the block with you on this before. Do you still have our letters? Did you ever read the writing I gave you - The Deadly Error of the Universalists ? You should read the whole section - Universalism The False Kind.
Enough of your false doctrine. We've answered it several times now. I'm done with you.
Paul
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Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul, I am afraid you are mistaken this time about my "self will" and not being crucified with Christ. I received it all by revelation as Peter did and what the Church is built on. I am NOT a Universalist or Christian Scientist whereby they have a "mental assent" to Christian doctrine. I reckon my co-death on the Cross and resulting resurrection and ascension because I am "In Christ" not because of my own "will-power".
Your accusations are unfounded and your discernment is wrong. I know you probably find it impossible that you may be in error about people but this time you are!!!
Being "done" with fellow believers is not acceptable!
Mike
Your accusations are unfounded and your discernment is wrong. I know you probably find it impossible that you may be in error about people but this time you are!!!
Being "done" with fellow believers is not acceptable!
Mike
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Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Mike, in another response to one of our outgoing letters this week you wrote:
“Paul, technically, our sins were forgiven at the whipping post as God viewed His blood and our sin nature was 'killed' in Christ at the Cross with Him. Now we reckon (believe) 'ourselves' dead and therefore alive with Him and NOW seated at Father's right hand. The SIN problem has been solved!! Reread Isa. 53:4-5 in the light of that truth.”
Here's the pertinent portion of the letter you wrote in response to:
[BEGIN]
“They said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:31 WEB).
Hi Michelle,
Jesus Christ isn't our substitute; He is our Lord and Savior. He died for us and rose again from the dead in order to forgive us our sins and empower us to live a life without sin by faith. In other words, to be like He is in the midst of evil. He comes to give us life abundant - to be good leaven and salt in the world.
Jesus called on men to repent and to take up the cross to follow Him. Hell is an internal state of darkness and separation from God due to sin, so it's certainly true to say that Jesus came to deliver us from Hell, which isn't a future possibility but a present reality. We turn from ourselves and the world (including and especially man's religion) and are saved from death and hell by obeying God through faith in Christ.
Read the following (with the links contained in the writings), several times each, very carefully. Here you will find the answers to your questions and more:
Satans Redemption
The Rich Man and Lazarus A Pagan Parable
How One Is Saved
The Good News
The answers, however, can only be received to good benefit through faith in Christ, because He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life:
“But God has brought you into union with Christ Jesus, and God has made Christ to be our wisdom. By Him we are put right with God; we become God's holy people and are set free” (1 Corinthians 1:30 GNB).
[END]
Apparently according to you, Mike, Jesus Christ is your substitute. You say your sin nature was killed with Christ when He was crucified, and now that you've believed this, you're seated at God's right hand.
But Christ couldn't be your substitute because you, as a sinner, could never have offered your life to God as a pleasing sacrifice. Christ wasn't your substitute on the cross, but instead was the propitiation for your sins, the Passover Lamb of God. If you received Him by faith, then your sins could be forgiven and you would be reconciled to God.
Only then, after reconciliation, is it possible to take up the cross and lay down the life, as Christ did, without sin and pleasing to God. You speak of this death being accomplished in the past, but the apostle Paul and God's servants teach that it's completed after turning to God in repentance:
Romans 6:5-8 ESV
(5) For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His.
(6) We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
(7) For one who has died has been set free from sin.
(8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him.
“IF we have been united with Him in a death like His,” and “IF we have died with Christ,” not “because He died you have died with Him.” You're preaching another gospel, Mike, and are belligerently unrepentant about it after we've spoken to you about it several times. As Paul also wrote:
“As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9 MKJV).
And:
“After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy, knowing that he who is such has been perverted, and sins, being self-condemned”
(Titus 3:10-11 MKJV).
You're rejected. Go your way; we're done with you, not because you're a fellow believer but because you refuse to be one. We don't walk away dusting our shoes without having exercised great patience and effort to reach you.
Paul & Victor
“Paul, technically, our sins were forgiven at the whipping post as God viewed His blood and our sin nature was 'killed' in Christ at the Cross with Him. Now we reckon (believe) 'ourselves' dead and therefore alive with Him and NOW seated at Father's right hand. The SIN problem has been solved!! Reread Isa. 53:4-5 in the light of that truth.”
Here's the pertinent portion of the letter you wrote in response to:
[BEGIN]
“They said, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household” (Acts 16:31 WEB).
Hi Michelle,
Jesus Christ isn't our substitute; He is our Lord and Savior. He died for us and rose again from the dead in order to forgive us our sins and empower us to live a life without sin by faith. In other words, to be like He is in the midst of evil. He comes to give us life abundant - to be good leaven and salt in the world.
Jesus called on men to repent and to take up the cross to follow Him. Hell is an internal state of darkness and separation from God due to sin, so it's certainly true to say that Jesus came to deliver us from Hell, which isn't a future possibility but a present reality. We turn from ourselves and the world (including and especially man's religion) and are saved from death and hell by obeying God through faith in Christ.
Read the following (with the links contained in the writings), several times each, very carefully. Here you will find the answers to your questions and more:
Satans Redemption
The Rich Man and Lazarus A Pagan Parable
How One Is Saved
The Good News
The answers, however, can only be received to good benefit through faith in Christ, because He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life:
“But God has brought you into union with Christ Jesus, and God has made Christ to be our wisdom. By Him we are put right with God; we become God's holy people and are set free” (1 Corinthians 1:30 GNB).
[END]
Apparently according to you, Mike, Jesus Christ is your substitute. You say your sin nature was killed with Christ when He was crucified, and now that you've believed this, you're seated at God's right hand.
But Christ couldn't be your substitute because you, as a sinner, could never have offered your life to God as a pleasing sacrifice. Christ wasn't your substitute on the cross, but instead was the propitiation for your sins, the Passover Lamb of God. If you received Him by faith, then your sins could be forgiven and you would be reconciled to God.
Only then, after reconciliation, is it possible to take up the cross and lay down the life, as Christ did, without sin and pleasing to God. You speak of this death being accomplished in the past, but the apostle Paul and God's servants teach that it's completed after turning to God in repentance:
Romans 6:5-8 ESV
(5) For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His.
(6) We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
(7) For one who has died has been set free from sin.
(8) Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him.
“IF we have been united with Him in a death like His,” and “IF we have died with Christ,” not “because He died you have died with Him.” You're preaching another gospel, Mike, and are belligerently unrepentant about it after we've spoken to you about it several times. As Paul also wrote:
“As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9 MKJV).
And:
“After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy, knowing that he who is such has been perverted, and sins, being self-condemned”
(Titus 3:10-11 MKJV).
You're rejected. Go your way; we're done with you, not because you're a fellow believer but because you refuse to be one. We don't walk away dusting our shoes without having exercised great patience and effort to reach you.
Paul & Victor
-
Mike
Re: Comments on Andrew Wommack, Watchmen Nee, and Smith Wigglesworth
Paul and Victor, "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old things are past away behold all things have become new." 2 Cor. 5:17
God has placed all of us in Christ if we accept His invitation and surrender ourselves to Him! As a result we also have been "seated" with Him in Glory in the here and now. I have NEVER offered MY life as a pleasing sacrifice because "my life" was a creation of the Devil and was crucified and buried and raised and ascended "in Him". "...it is no longer I that live, but Christ." Gal. 2:20
I really don't know how you guys make that "assumption" that it is "my life" from what I told you. Your "twice" warnings are mistaken and plainly wrong. You, have been warned of your error as well, so guess we are at a stalemate!! Humble yourselves as you are asking me to and we can resume being on the same page.
Mike
God has placed all of us in Christ if we accept His invitation and surrender ourselves to Him! As a result we also have been "seated" with Him in Glory in the here and now. I have NEVER offered MY life as a pleasing sacrifice because "my life" was a creation of the Devil and was crucified and buried and raised and ascended "in Him". "...it is no longer I that live, but Christ." Gal. 2:20
I really don't know how you guys make that "assumption" that it is "my life" from what I told you. Your "twice" warnings are mistaken and plainly wrong. You, have been warned of your error as well, so guess we are at a stalemate!! Humble yourselves as you are asking me to and we can resume being on the same page.
Mike