Faith is like trusting a chair?

[Joshua M]

Why when you carefully consider the rebuke of certain false prophets use different bible versions?
Thank you!
Joshua

[Paul Cohen]

We use E-Sword on our computers when composing letters, Josh, which allows one to load multiple versions of the Bible. So we have ready access to many translations. And why wouldn't or shouldn't we use different ones, as long as they're true to the Spirit of the Word and get the Lord's point across?

I recommend reading the following section on our site starting with the introduction, which will not only answer your question in greater depth, but will also provide you with life-giving substance from the Word of God made flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ:

How We View and Use the Scriptures.

Paul Cohen
www.ThePathofTruth.com

[Joshua M]

Thank you for the reply. I was talking to my pastor about lots of finger point for false doctrine on the internet and he noted to me, that you should be skeptical when someone is teaching out of multiple versions. He said it seems like they search other versions to get it to say what they want it to say. As you said, men even mess up the bible in the way they translate, but we make it even worse if we bounce around trying to make it say what it may not be saying. I am not disagreeing, it just came up as a concern when I noticed this on your website. I do not condemn anyone for using multiple versions I read different versions all the time, just seems weird when we make a point and go between versions to express our point. Did we read that verse in the original translation and think, well, it doesn't really prove my point well, let me try a different version. Seems the best way to be sure we are using verses correctly is to go back to the original Greek and Hebrew correct?

Just a thought. Many false teachers are out there. Which is why the best thing to preach is to read your bible for yourself. Don't take anyone's word for Gods word. Would you agree?

[Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk]

There's no "original" translation, Josh. There are only translations from different manuscripts of varying ages, none of them being the original text written by the apostles or servants of God.

You're also wrong if you think translating is simply a word for word proposition, with only one way absolutely correct. Each language and culture is unique, so there are a variety of ways to express things. It's not so cut and dried.

Your pastor is wrong about translations and only exposes himself as one who doesn't rely on the Holy Spirit to give understanding. Here's why: Every translation has its strong and weak points, simply because the translators don't always have the right understanding from the Lord. Therefore, there must be The Standard to determine right and wrong translation. Only the Lord Jesus Christ can provide that standard for reliable understanding. He is the Standard.

So, most times we don't search for a translation at all but when we find that the translation we're using is questionable or faulty, we search for a more accurate rendering. We go to various translations not to prove our point but to teach the Lord's doctrine and we choose the translation that presents His Message most accurately in any instant. What can be wrong with that? If that's wrong, then we're guilty.

Your pastor should also beware of whom he accuses and for what. He's there to defend his sandy foundation and it won't work. You will see the storm take down his works.

Your problem, Josh, is stated by this thought in your last paragraph:

"Just a thought. Many false teachers are out there. Which is why the best thing to preach is to read your bible for yourself. Don't take anyone's word for Gods word. Would you agree?"

What you say may sound right to many, but it's wrong. You're taking your own word for what you think the Bible is saying, but you need to take Jesus Christ's Word for what He is saying. You've taken the path of private interpretation, from which you need to repent, turning to the Word made flesh, the Daystar of God.

2 Peter 1:19-21 MKJV
(19) We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,
(20) knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
(21) For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.

Another way of describing the doctrine of private interpretation: "In those days there was no king in Israel. Every man did the right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25 MKJV).

Jesus Christ is the missing King in the hearts and assemblies of the religious.

Paul & Victor

[Joshua M]

Thank you for your reply. Sorry I may have miss communicated what I was saying in reading the bible for yourself. Here is an example of what I mean by reading the Bible for yourself.

I have a small group that meets on Fridays but we really do not have a guideline so we meet and discuss what is on our hearts at that time. I have been very interested in verses like Luke 14:25-34 or Luke 23:26 where it talks about being a disciple. I was struggling with the difference between salvation and disciple in my group. So we discussed it and we landed on that you are saved by believing and taking Jesus into your heart, however as James 2 says, you will have works that prove your faith, even in Ephesians 2 you see that you are saved by grace thru faith, not by works however, created to do a good work thru Christ Jesus. My issue seems to be, people claim that just praying a prayer saves you, and that is all you have to do and repentance and discipleship is not part of the process. In this discussion, we concluded that discipleship is the growth of your faith and you WILL repent and disciple people if you are indeed saved. If not then we should question if you are truly born again. Countless places Jesus commands us to repent and to make disciples. Therefore, due to shear repetition we should imply this is very important.

Above I read my Bible for myself. Was confused about what I have been told and what I was reading. Therefore, thru fellowship I learned that I was partly wrong. I thought you had to do all these things that Jesus is saying like hate your mother and father (understanding to love Jesus more), or carry your cross daily. That this was what it meant to be saved, in actual fact, you do these things and grow into these things thru your faith and trust in Jesus. You may not do them right away, but as you grow you will become more like this. You desire to disciple and share Gods Word. It is an evidence of your faith but not something you are doing to earn it. I was worried that if I never repented for a particular sin (one that I repented of a year ago), I was doomed to hell (didn't think this until recently reading the above passages). Therefore since I repented I felt like I was good because I was able to overcome this sin and that I was saved because of it and that is what others HAVE to do. Truth is, you will slowly be transformed into a person who repents of their sins and uses God to help them repent. When I started trusting in Jesus and following His Word is when I was saved and when he started that good work in me.

Another reason I say we should read the Bible for ourselves is, sometimes we get one sided to a teaching. So we then do not become as informed by Gods word and take on something that someone is teaching instead of the full picture. Likewise, we can also do that in the opposite fashion (take one sermon and say this is what the person is teaching). Teeing off of the same idea as above, if I read John 3:16 you get a clear message that if we believe in Jesus then we are saved. This might be where the sinners prayer idea came from. So if that is all I knew of Gods Word, maybe that is what I would think. However you read verses like in James 2 saying that even the demons believe in Jesus, and they tremble. So you get the sense that just believing in Jesus may not be the answer. In fact, the more you study, you realize it takes more than just "believing".

What does believing mean to you and I? I cannot speak for you, but when I truly believe in something, I trust it and put faith in it. I trust that my wife loves me, I trust her by the way she acts and treats me. I trust that the very chair I am sitting in today, will hold me and not fall. I have faith in it and do not worry about it. When I read Jer 17:5-8 I get a picture of what a person is like who does not trust in the Lord and one that does. therefore if that is the case about Jesus, then should we not trust and lean on what he has taught and know that in order to truly believe, we need to trust in him with all these things? If no one told me that, or I never read the Bible for myself (seeking as I am commanded to do Matt 7:7-8), then how would I know there is more to just believing?

I understand a lot of the bible was pieced together from various documents. I understand the dead sea scrolls really helped us a lot in reviewing this but that there may not really be an exact copy of the bible out there for us to read. Much like the people who wrote it, the Holy Spirit helps us, He helps us interpret the verses we read today properly. We can choose to listen to Him or we can choose to ignore it. I brought up different versions of the bible as to say that all versions are trying to tell us the same thing, but as you said, some cultures and the way we read things are different. Spanish reads differently than English even though in reality they are fairly similar (lots of words resemble each other). So the idea of the different versions is to try to take what is there (in Greek or Hebrew etc.) and try to make it understandable in our language.

I think my Pastor was trying to say that, you should be cautious about people who take different versions in a sermon or teaching as they may be trying to get it to say something that goes along with what they WANT it to say, not necessarily letting it speak to them. This is because the writers of the different versions are taking something that may be easier to understand from a different culture or viewpoint. When we take that viewpoint and change it during a particular teaching, it seems you are trying to hide something. Reading different versions is a good thing, I do it all the time. The point being made here is when it comes to teaching.

Think about you and I sitting looking at a tree. I describe it as a big bushy tree with red circular like fruits on it. It also has a hole in the middle where it appears an animal lives. You may say, looking from a slightly different angle, that it is a decent sized tree that has yellowish type fruits on it. We are talking about the same thing but different descriptions. So, lets say someone was reading these descriptions that you and I had written down. That person could easily say you know, I am not sure what I think about this hole in the tree... I would like not for this tree to be described that way. So, l will go ahead and share the verse that does not say anything about the hole in the tree, because to me, that is insignificant. This would not be falsely describing this tree, however, because this person decided that the hole in the tree was not enjoyable, he decided to skip over that (or in our case, change the translation or viewpoint) to ignore that part of it.

A simplified example may be Phil 3:8. The word DUNG or DOG DUNG or RUBBISH or GARBAGE are all the same word in various versions of the Bible. To different cultures they mean something, in this case, from my viewpoint, I feel like DOG DUNG is very different from GARBAGE. It seems that DOG DUNG is much worse. Therefore, if I wanted to prove a point here that Paul was saying our stuff is worthless, so worthless that he considers it DOG DUNG, then I would look for a verse that says that, if I choose GARBAGE someone may say, well there is definitely good things in GARBAGE. So if I wanted to tell people that it appears that our things are garbage however, even in garbage there is gems and gold. Therefore sometimes we do have good things apart from God. If I did, I would push toward the version that says garbage not, dog dung even though that is not what Paul is really saying here at all.

You are right, you take what you understand the Bible to say and review it with other brothers and sisters. Never do this entirely alone unless there is no possible way for you to consult others (in jail or hiding in China etc.). In this case I believe God will bless you because you have no other option. But we know even Satan knows the Word and is ready to twist it in our minds.

Just like the Bible, you can tell from this conversation that miss interpretation is easy to do. I hope this gives you a better understanding of what I stating in my previous email. I may have opened up more conversation whether it be rebuke or not about this topic and I definitely invite it as I could still be wrong.

God Bless
Joshua

[Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk]

Hi Joshua,

So you are, after all, relying on more than just yourself to understand the Bible:

"Therefore, thru fellowship I learned that I was partly wrong."

This seems to contradict what you said in your previous letter about reading the Bible for yourself and not listening to others:

"Don't take anyone's word for Gods word."

Maybe what you meant to say is that you can't trust what just any person says, as Paul wrote to the Romans:

"But let God be true, and every man a liar…" (Romans 3:4 MKJV).

That doesn't mean, however, that you can understand the Bible by yourself, or that God doesn't send teachers of the Word to those who believe. Remember the Ethiopian to whom Phillip was sent?

"And Philip ran there to him and heard him read the prophet Isaiah, and said, Do you indeed understand what you are reading? And he said, How can I unless some man should guide me? And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him"
(Acts 8:30-31 MKJV).

Read The Big Lie Exposed.

Your Bible group was right, up to a point, in what you've related to us:

"My issue seems to be, people claim that just praying a prayer saves you, and that is all you have to do and repentance and discipleship is not part of the process. In this discussion, we concluded that discipleship is the growth of your faith and you WILL repent and disciple people if you are indeed saved. If not then we should question if you are truly born again. Countless places Jesus commands us to repent and to make disciples. Therefore, due to shear repetition we should imply this is very important."

You're right about having repentance and exercising faith to work out your salvation if you are a "disciplined" one of Christ. That's absolutely true. But not all believers are called or prepared to make disciples. You say Jesus spoke of this "countless" times, but I find Him only saying this once to the eleven apostles after His resurrection:

Matthew 28:16-20 ESV
(16) Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
(17) And when they saw Him they worshiped Him, but some doubted.
(18) And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
(19) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Are you one of the eleven apostles? Has the Lord specifically called you, as He did Saul and Barnabas, to be separated from a believing assembly and sent out to preach after having been prepared by God?

"As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, So, then, separate Barnabas and Saul to Me for the work to which I have called them" (Acts 13:2 MKJV).

You're mistaken about all believers making disciples. How can you train and raise up other believers when you haven't been trained yourself? That's an unbearable burden, which ends up causing more damage than good if not checked and corrected. More specifically, that's the way of counterfeit Christianity, which are men's works done in the Name of God. Jesus addressed such:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matthew 23:15 MKJV).

The natural worlds tell you that to successfully bear and raise offspring, the creature should be mature and experienced. Only man, particularly religious man, decides he's capable of doing all that and more in the name of his gods. Did you know the Bible is a god to many? Man's gods serve his thinking and lusts, and not the will of God.

You ask with regards to trusting Jesus:

"If no one told me that, or I never read the Bible for myself (seeking as I am commanded to do Matt 7:7-8), then how would I know there is more to just believing?"

The Scripture you cite is:

"Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you. For each one who asks receives; and he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, it shall be opened" (Matthew 7:7-8 MKJV)

Do you ask and seek God or the Bible, Joshua? You have the two mixed up. We seek the Lord and are instructed by Him, with or without the Bible. Don't you know that Noah, Abraham, and Moses didn't have the Bible? Every saint you read about in the Bible had the Lord leading and teaching them, first and foremost.

You say, "I cannot speak for you, but when I truly believe in something, I trust it and put faith in it. I trust that my wife loves me, I trust her by the way she acts and treats me. I trust that the very chair I am sitting in today, will hold me and not fall."

Faith in God demands a decision not only to believe, but also and always to choose from two opposing options. When called on to believe God and what He commands or says, the pull of the world, the flesh, and the Devil through unbelief and fear, oppose the called one. Contradiction, reasoning, judgment after the appearance, experience, and self-preservation come to defy God's requirement.

Sitting in a chair doesn't require faith in the face of an opposing world or dimension; the proof is naturally there and available to the senses - one makes such a decision without consequence - normally, there is no loss or error involved in choosing to sit or not sit in a chair. A wife's evident, proven love may be reasonable to believe, without cost or consequence or opposing option. This is a choice to make only in one realm. When God deals with us, His ways and thoughts are not ours and so there are two opposing dimensions of flesh and spirit:

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9 MKJV).

Peter wasn't strengthened by experience when the Lord called on him to walk on water. Peter was called upon to do that which was impossible and unbelievable to men, very much unlike sitting on a chair. And when Peter began to sink, the Lord rebuked him for his unbelief.

Does your pastor think that only those who use different Bible versions are using the Bible to say what they want? Those who idolize and exclusively use the KJV are doing the same thing, as with others and their pet versions.

I'm not saying that what your pastor says about some teachers using different versions for their private interpretations isn't true, but the man provides no discernment or understanding from the Lord to keep people from shooting themselves in the foot or the head with his counsel. They will accept or dismiss whatever suits them in the Bible, just as your pastor is doing.

You write:

"When we take that viewpoint and change it during a particular teaching, it seems you are trying to hide something. Reading different versions is a good thing, I do it all the time. The point being made here is when it comes to teaching."

Let's get out of theory and into practicality. Can you show us specifically where you think we're doing this?

I disagree with your Scripture examples. Regarding the one about the hole in the tree, if that's a prominent feature then for the translator to leave it out is not being faithful to the original text. That wouldn't be a good translation of the passage and shouldn't be used.

As for the word rendered "dung" in Philippians 3:8, it does also mean "refuse," or "garbage," so no problem there. I don't see how using either of those words doesn't convey the meaning of the Scripture. Certainly the implication of Paul calling his religious education as a Pharisee "garbage" compared to winning Christ doesn't convey the idea of a trash pile being a favorable place to find gold or gems. You're being very unreal and foolish here. Paul is plainly saying that man's religion is not a wholesome place where salvation is to be had, but is a place to be readily discarded.

As for "dog dung," that isn't what the original Greek word means, so no call to go there. You may have gotten your mistaken idea from the Strong's definition:

"Neuter of a presumed derivative of G1519 and G2965 and G906; what is thrown to the dogs, that is, refuse (ordure): - dung."

Paul & Victor

[Dennison Rivera]

Following correspondence is mentioned in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/zxFxpOaRZ0Q[/youtube]