This document includes FB conversation and email correspondence with Dr. Shiv Chopra, author of Four.Five, his exegesis of Genesis chapters 1 to 9, identifying the account of Noah with the process of embryology, a rather remarkable connection. Chopra shows that the timings and elements of Noah, the flood, and the ark event are a wonderful representation in scientific terms and details of the conception, gestation, and birth of a human being.
It’s interesting how while Dr. Chopra can approach the subject with an intellect for calculations and speculation, he still remains an atheist, or, if he believes in the existence of a Supreme Being or First Cause at all, he certainly fails to acknowledge Him as the Creator, or realize that everything in existence did not come to be by cross-species evolution. Most importantly, he doesn’t realize the Divinity of the Present Living Personal Lord and Savior of all mankind, Jesus Christ, Engineer and Maintainer of All Things.
It seems Shiv Chopra still thinks the story of Noah is a myth or allegory, notwithstanding the Genesis record before and after the story, Noah’s genealogy included, and of the reference to him by Jesus Christ and His disciples as a historical person, as recorded in the New Testament. All this in spite of the fact that Shiv seems to believe that the books of the Old and New Testaments must be studied as a whole because of their unity with nature and purpose.
And what should make Dr. Chopra assume that the rest of Genesis and even the remainder of the Bible is not accurate if the first chapters of Genesis are as accurate as he seems to believe they are, so much so that he prides himself in his discoveries of numerous scientific facts allegorically related in the account of Noah?
My summation of where Chopra is at and addressed to him publicly, as his book is public:
Shiv Chopra, do you believe the entire Book of Genesis is essentially true or not? According to your approach to Genesis chapters one through nine, there’s contradiction in your thinking. You don’t seem to recognize that if the statistics you comment on there are so accurate in detail, as “proven” by your reasoning and deduction, then you should be quite prepared to acknowledge the veracity of the claims the entire Book of Genesis makes. And what about the rest of the Bible that serves to expand on the Genesis record?
For example, I take it you are a macro-evolutionist. Am I right on that? I asked you this question and you declined to respond. I assume this is because you know there would be a difference between us and you didn’t care for what I had to offer you, seeing I believe in creation and micro-evolution only, which is perfectly reasonable.
Both I and the Book of Genesis contradict your apparent theory of macro-evolution, which is logically unreasonable, untenable and frankly, “a horse’s ass.” I find no lie so confounding, illogical and ludicrous as that of evolution. Yet, highly educated and intelligent men espouse it as
Gospel truth.
For definition of evolution terms, I Googled and randomly refer to http://www.pravdareport.com/science/mys ... olution-0/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Many in society are not aware of the difference between micro-evolution and macro-evolution. Micro-evolution is true science and it involves biological variations within a ‘kind’ such as varieties of dogs, cats, horses, cows, etc. Charles Darwin assumed that because micro-evolution occurs in nature that macro-evolution (biological variations across kinds) would also be possible if given enough time.” END QUOTE
What you seem to glaringly miss in Genesis is that it authoritatively declares that all things are begotten by like kind and never descend from unlike species. The chapters your study is based on do declare:
“And God said, Let the earth bring forth tender sprouts (the herb seeding seed and the fruit tree producing fruit after its kind, whose seed is in itself) upon the earth; and it was so. And the earth brought forth tender sprouts, the herb yielding seed after its kind, and the tree producing fruit after its kind, whose seed was in itself. And God saw that it was good” (Genesis 1:11-12 MKJV).
“And God created great sea animals, and every living soul that creeps with which the waters swarmed after their kind; and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good” (Genesis 1:21 MKJV).
“And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle, and creepers, and its beasts of the earth after its kind; and it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth after its kind, and cattle after their kind, and all creepers upon the earth after their kind. And God saw that it was good” (Genesis 1:24-25 MKJV).
Every species after its kind, Shiv, never from another kind – this from a book you seem to pay respect to with your own book, Four.Five, as you testify of the wonderful parallel of Noah’s episode to scientific fact (by the way, the Bible and true science will always agree).
Then when Noah was commanded to gather creatures to preserve their kind in the flood, He couldn’t rely on macro-evolution in the future to do its thing simply because there is no such thing; he needed to bring in every kind to preserve all kinds:
“And you shall bring into the ark two of every kind, of every living thing of all flesh, to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. Two of every kind shall come to you to keep them alive; of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind” (Genesis 6:19-20 MKJV).
“They went in, and every animal after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth after its kind, and every fowl after its kind, every bird of every sort” (Genesis 7:14 MKJV).
Mr. Chopra, it seems you are as a man peeking through a small, darkened window and getting a rare glimpse of what is inside a mysterious building, unable to reason through the facts laid out before you because of your indoctrination. Yet you speak as one who understands some of those facts and, furthermore, insists on having credibility while dismissing the simple proofs of your error.
What must happen is that you come to meet the Owner, Builder, and Resident of that building and be invited in as a guest to realize the glorious wonder of what you’ve had a tiny glimpse of by your faulty perception and limited reasoning powers. To this wonderful end is the Genesis account written, inspired by Our Creator to inform the creature He’s creating of what He is doing as He forms him in His image.
There’s only one way a man can come to the Father (God) and that is to humble himself through faith in His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, Who, by the way, didn’t fail, as you presumptuously surmise. He accomplished what He was appointed to do, which was to lay down His life and take it up again that mankind might ultimately be reconciled to, and have glorious fellowship with, God. Like begets like: Life and Truth beget Life. Death and lies can only produce destruction.
Jesus Christ, God’s Only Begotten Son, overcame death and the powers of hell and darkness - where you and multitudes currently reside. His work needs only be fully manifest at His appointed time. Those who have been delivered from darkness know very well Who Jesus Christ is, what He has done, is doing, and will do in perfect success with the culmination of the ages. That culmination is now upon us, as prophesied in the Bible you don’t comprehend.
The Son, by the predeterminate counsel and foreknowledge of God, voluntarily sacrificed His earthly life. As a kernel of wheat, He was sown (buried) and raised up again after three days to give us the Way, the Truth and the Life, all of which He Is, that we might enjoy fellowship and unity with Him and the Father.
He lives, Shiv; He lives! I and those with me have received His Spirit and Life as have many others over the millennia, thus making us all true brothers and sisters together in Him.
We saints all know THE FLOOD occurred in reality, that there was a man Noah, who had a wife and three sons who were married, and who had children. These and a sampling of creatures were spared in the flood by building an ark according to God’s instruction. From these, the earth was replenished when the waters receded and they abandoned the ark on the mountains of Ararat, a specific historical and geographical location. Noah’s genealogy, before and after, is on record in both the Old and New Testaments, a record of real people whose descendants populate the earth today.
Now think of how marvelous God’s works are, past mortal’s comprehension, that He should design an event in detail as that of Noah, the ark, and the flood to parallel the conception, gestation and embryological development of the creature He is in process of creating in His own image (by the way, there are innumerable detailed Scriptural and creation parallels such as the one you’re alerted to). And you, Dr. Shiv Chopra, are, by God’s unmerited favor, witness to that bit of information, not because of carnal intelligence, but by His grace.
Shiv, as intelligent as you are, you won’t understand or receive what I’m saying because these things are spiritual and can only be apprehended by God’s grace and sovereign will. I couldn’t come to understand them by myself and don’t take any credit. One day, you’ll meet your Maker as I did, and be humbled before Him, recognizing your utter unworthiness, even depravity, as is common to all men separated from God and without Christ. Your wisdom and knowledge will be confounded. As it is written:
1 Corinthians 1:18-24 MKJV
(18) For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those being lost, but to us being saved, it is the power of God.
(19) For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the perceiving ones.”
(20) Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer [or scientist] of this world? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
(21) For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.
(22) For the Jews ask for a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom;
(23) but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling-block, and to the Greeks foolishness.
(24) But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.
You say, “During this period [Hellenist rule and following during Jesus’ days on earth in the flesh] arose a mass confusion in the Middle East which Jesus Christ tried to resolve. However, not being successful, Christ was sacrificed.”
At least you acknowledge the facts of Jesus Christ’s historical human existence and His death on the cross. Now to have you acknowledge in the heart His Resurrection three days later, His Ascension forty days later, and His return in the Spirit 50 days later.
According to appearances, you’re right about His death and failure; according to the reality hidden from men, so wrong. Jesus the Messiah was So Perfectly Successful He overcame death itself, to be manifest in due time. I solemnly declare to you that the time of His Success Manifested is upon us, in our very generation. Because this is so, Satan, the prince of this world is unleashing his total wrath. But he will fail:
“Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time” (Revelation 12:12 MKJV).
Those who know the Lord Jesus Christ, having turned from their independence of Him and entered into His company and Kingdom, know these things.
I’m thankful I red your book that I might be able to share the Truth with you while understanding somewhat of where you’ve been standing. This has been for your sake and that of many, and it’s all good.
One day, you, I, our wives and children, and all humankind will be worshiping the King of kings together, full of joy and awe of Who He Is and What He Does. I look forward to it, as do all saints who know the glory of the destiny of those God is Forming in His Own Likeness.
Victor Hafichuk
http://www.ThePathofTruth.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.HarvestHaven.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Here is the Facebook correspondence I began with Shiv Chopra on his book Four.Five on October 2, 2016:
• Victor Hafichuk
Hi Shiv,
I've finally completed Four.Five - a tough go for me, I must admit.
I found the detailed parallel of the story of Noah and the human embryology fascinating, but it seems the significance was different for each of us. Thus, these questions, to start, if you're willing:
What do you have to say in general or in summary of your book? What are your conclusions that you might not necessarily wish to divulge to the general public for various reasons?
Do you believe in a First Cause?
Do you believe in cross-species [macro] evolution? I don't know that you were very clear, or I just missed it.
Do you believe the story of Noah, THE FLOOD, and the ark is mythological (fictional), merely an allegory of human gestation, or do you believe it to be a record of an actual, historical event, which nonetheless represented another aspect or "department" of reality, what I would call "creation"?
Of course, you likely know where I stand on these matters but I'd like to hear where you stand.
When I have confirmation from you on these points, I'd like to send you a very brief summation of my thoughts on Four.Five.
However, I'd like to converse by email, if you don't mind. I find it much easier on that medium for correspondence. Thank you, Shiv. I wish you well.
•
2:43pm
Victor Hafichuk
So please give me your email address!
October 5:
• Victor Hafichuk
Shiv, can you give me your email, please, or perhaps you have an alternative choice of communication? I have received no mail from you thus far.
•
2:52pm
Shiv Chopra
Victor, my views about creation that was, is and will ever continue is where I stand in my interpretation of Genesis 1-9. I am open to discussion but only if it does not wander off into issues of personal faith. Also, I do not wish to indulge in written exchanges for lack of time. However, I do not mind receiving your comments and conversing by telephone.
shiv.chopra@rogers.com 613-692-6104
Victor Hafichuk
I've little doubt my letter will take up less of your time than would a phone call. I would prefer to put it on paper for the advantage of a clearer understanding of who said what and in what context; all can be easily verified, unless audio-recorded, of course. I also find that people often don't give others a chance to complete their thoughts or messages are unclear and the reader is able to review before responding, which also saves time.
I am much better on paper than in speech, as you may know [not that I’m anything unusual as a writer]. I don't ask for this avenue for myself alone but also for the sake of clarity for all. Will you indulge me in this, please? I don't expect a continual exchange, but I would appreciate those answers I've asked for, on paper, so I can consider them and be respectful as possible to their substance as on verifiable record.
I hope you don't treat me as an antagonist; I don't wish to be one.
Dr. Chopra didn’t oblige me, so I wrote:
Shiv, seeing you're reluctant to offer me your email address, I could spare you the time and effort and post what I have drawn in conclusion of your book. You may correct me where you will, or not. No problem. Perhaps there's a place for a book review? Or do you not feel I have anything of value to say?
• Shiv Chopra
Victor, I had no hesitation to send you my email address. I will be delighted to receive your review of Four.Five.
•
4:32pm
Victor Hafichuk
Please send it to me, then, Shiv, and thank you.
•
4:36pm
Victor Hafichuk
Shiv, I just checked my address book and have your address. Sorry about that. I will send what I have written, although I would appreciate your answers beforehand to my questions so there's no misunderstanding, though if you wish to clarify things later, I'm willing to go with it.
As an aside, I witness the most recent court ruling of your case and that of other scientists dismissed at Health Canada when, as a whistleblower, you were trying to protect Canadians from harm:
A dozen years after whistleblowers Margaret Haydon and Shiv Chopra were fired by Health Canada for alleged insubordination, a tribunal has ordered the reinstatement of one and voided a 20-day suspension imposed on the other. Here, Haydon and Chopra are shown in a photo from 2000. -
THE ARTICLE:
Dr. Chopra, in response to the judgment, you said on September 29th:A dozen years after two high-profile whistleblowers were fired by Health Canada for alleged insubordination, a tribunal has ordered the reinstatement of one and voided a 20-day suspension imposed on the other.
The decision by the Public Service Labour Relations and Employment Board late last week is being hailed as a major victory for federal whistleblowers by the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada.
Margaret Haydon and Shiv Chopra were both employed as veterinarian scientists when they were dismissed in June 2004. The two had repeatedly gone public with their concerns about deficiencies in Canada’s drug approval process.
In 1998, they testified before a Senate committee that they were being pressured to approve Recombinant Bovine Somatotropin (rBST), a controversial growth hormone intended to boost milk production in dairy cattle.
In its decision, the PSLREB overturned Haydon’s dismissal and substituted a 20-day suspension instead. It also upheld a grievance against a 10-day suspension imposed on Haydon before she was fired.
The board decided not to overturn Chopra’s dismissal, but upheld his grievance against a 20-day suspension he received in 2003 — one of three suspensions used to justify his firing.
In 2011, the board upheld the dismissals and suspensions, but the Federal Court of Canada ordered it to reconsider the matter after judicial review in a 2014 decision.
Board adjudicator Ian Mackenzie cited the Federal Court’s observations, which he described as “highly persuasive,” in upholding the grievances against Haydon’s and Chopra’s suspensions.
In particular, he pointed to the Federal Court’s observation that lengthy delays in imposing the suspensions on the two scientists meant they never had a chance to make an informed decision about whether they should continue to speak out publicly.
That, said Mackenzie, “leads to the conclusion that the grievers suffered prejudice from the employer’s delay imposing discipline and its failure to advise them of the possibility of discipline.” Because of the delay, Health Canada effectively condoned Haydon and Chopra’s comments, he said.
In dismissing Haydon, Health Canada cited her “deliberate and systematic attempt(s) … to avoid and evade work” assigned to her, which it said amounted to insubordination.
While Haydon’s misconduct was significant and warranted “a significant disciplinary sanction,” the tribunal decision says, terminating her employment was “not suitable.”
Health Canada relied on progressive discipline to justify its decision to fire her. But the board’s decision to overturn her 10-day suspension and rule out consideration of a five-day suspension in 2001 meant there was no longer any discipline on her record, Mackenzie said.
“I find that in light of the lack of a prior record and Dr. Haydon’s length of service, a suspension of 20 days would have been an appropriate disciplinary sanction for her acts of insubordination.”
Though Haydon’s dismissal was overturned, the issue of what constitutes an appropriate remedy was not addressed during the tribunal’s hearing. Mackenzie said he would leave that to the parties to resolve, but will retain jurisdiction in case they can’t agree.
While the board overturned Chopra’s 20-day suspension, his record still contained earlier five- and 10-day suspensions, the tribunal decision says, both of which were upheld by the Federal Court.
“The 10-day suspension was for insubordination and was similar to the misconduct the employer relied on for terminating his employment,” Mackenzie observed.
Chopra behaviour didn’t improve after the 10-day suspension, he noted, nor did he admit to any errors in his behaviour at the tribunal’s hearing into the grievances.
“Dr. Chopra broke the bond of trust with the employer,” the tribunal says in its decision. In view of his attitude and failure to respond to lesser discipline, reinstatement now would vindicate his actions and invite a repetition, it concludes.
Despite the failure to win reinstatement for Chopra, PIPSC issued a media release Wednesday describing the tribunal’s decision as a “major victory.”
“Dr. Haydon has won the right to return to work and most of Dr. Chopra’s discipline has been overturned,” Debi Daviau, the president of PIPSC, said in the release. “That in itself is a testament to the justice of their cause and the perseverance they and their union have shown.
“While we are obviously disappointed the board did not also agree to overturn the dismissal of Dr. Chopra, we are glad to see most of the discipline that was imposed on him overturned and will be reviewing the board’s decision to determine whether or not to challenge.”
In a statement Wednesday, Health Canada said it is reviewing the tribunal’s decision, but said “it would be premature to provide comments pending a detailed review.”
dbutler@postmedia.com
twitter.com/ButlerDon
Chopra Haydon Decision, September 22, 2016 by Ottawa Citizen on Scribd
Shiv Chopra Don't know why people are congratulating me. While the other two scientists are reinstated I remain fired.
True, but why is the question, and there is an answer. I have a sure-fire solution to your problem of not receiving a satisfactory vindication, Shiv. I ask you to forgive your adversaries, those who have wronged you. Put away your pride and resultant bitterness, which you say you don’t have, though it’s evident to others. “You want justice? Justice you will have, and more than you counted on,” said one man.
And if you hold former PM Stephen Harper personally responsible when you don’t really know if that’s true, then how can you justify your complaint of being unfairly accused and treated, even if you were, when you do the same to others? It won’t work, Shiv. You apparently disagree with the Christian-Judeo Theistic moral ethic so let me put the same truth and principles in other terms I suspect you might be more inclined to agree with:
You know of and agree on the principle of Karma. “What goes around, comes around.” There it is.
I’ve learned the truth and inestimable value of the knowledge of the meaning of this proverb found in the Scripture you’ve studied:
“As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come” (Proverbs 26:2 KJV).
This is nothing a “big bang” or unintelligent matter can perform by accident repeatedly in all aspects of life. It takes Intelligence with a Perfect Sense of Justice to accomplish.
Whatever we suffer, we either need or deserve. That’s how it is. Our Sovereign Creator is neither stupid nor impotent, and never asleep. He runs the entire show and He knows what He’s doing. When we learn to take responsibility for those things that come upon us - that is when true freedom comes.
“You shall know the Truth and the Truth will make you free,” said Jesus Christ, Lord of all. And I don’t care if Confucius or Buddha or anyone else spoke this Truth, as well. It remains Truth as made known to mankind before their day, as well, according to the Holy Scriptures brought forth through ancient Israel.
(Shiv, please indicate any provable factual error on my part and I will correct. Where necessary, I will offer a public apology.)