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Just thinking --- IF you made a list of Truth Teachers --- would the list contain any names other than yours?
Not agreeing nor disagreeing just wondering,
Clint
IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
-
Paul Cohen
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
“To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because no light is in them” (Isaiah 8:20 MKJV).
Today's list of true teachers is about as long as Noah's list, Clint. And why should we be surprised, when the Lord and His apostles foretold this desolate state of affairs?
“Yet when the Son of Man comes, shall He find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8 MKJV)
2 Timothy 3:1-5 KJV
(1) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
(2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
There's little doubt there was a long list of “true teachers” in Noah's day according to the estimation of those destroyed. As in his day, so in ours.
Paul Cohen
www.ThePathofTruth.com
Today's list of true teachers is about as long as Noah's list, Clint. And why should we be surprised, when the Lord and His apostles foretold this desolate state of affairs?
“Yet when the Son of Man comes, shall He find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8 MKJV)
2 Timothy 3:1-5 KJV
(1) This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
(2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
There's little doubt there was a long list of “true teachers” in Noah's day according to the estimation of those destroyed. As in his day, so in ours.
Paul Cohen
www.ThePathofTruth.com
-
Clint
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
Shalom Sha'ul,
Thanks for the response.
Have been doing some studies on/about the New Testament.
I have attached a document of some of my thoughts (in very summarized form).
If you have a moment --- could you give me a short response about these thoughts ?
Shalom U'Brechot,
Clint
Attachment:
Within the Denominations of Christianity one hears the news about the "New Testament" and how many believe they belong to a New Testament Church. Yet, how many people actually know what defines this "New Testament?" The New Testament or more accurately "The New Covenant" is actually a prophecy, a promise, and a legal document detailing a binding vow attested to by God Himself. The legal wording of this New Covenant can be found in God's Word at Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah 31:31,37) and repeated at Hebrews 8:7 - 12.
Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) 31:31, 37 (AKJV) "Behold, the days come saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah." "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:" "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." "And they shall teach no more everyman his neighbour, and everyman his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." "Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar: The Lord of hosts is his name:" "If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever." "Thus saith the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord:"
**** Let's look now at specific points of the New Covenant ****
1. The "New" Covenant is between God, Israel and Judah. 2. The Covenant will be implemented at a specific time "after those days." We can find out after which days by looking at what God had just said in (Jeremiah 30:7). Thus, we find that this New Covenant will be implemented after the Tribulation ("the time of Jacob's trouble") not before. 3. The Covenant, when instituted, within the hearts of the people (Believers) there will no longer be any need for a Bayit Midrash (house of study) nor even a Church .... as this is where the knowledge of God is taught --- but since everyone will now have that knowledge written on their heart and will no longer need to be taught, there is no need for religious structures nor pastors or teachers (Jeremiah 31:34). 4. This Covenant is spoken, but not ratified or confirmed (with blood) at this time. Several hundred years later the confirmation is explained............. I Cor. 11:25 NLT In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant between God and his people--an agreement confirmed with my blood. Still this is not the implementation of the "New Covenant" (Testament) but rather the ratification or guarantee (by Messiah's blood) of its implementation at some future date ("after those days").
5. Also note, God says "if the sun stops shining, the moon and stars stop glowing and the sea becomes totally calm ... only then will this covenant and the nation of Israel cease to exist. What is it that God will write ON the hearts of his people? It is the very thing Christians have spent their lives evading, ignoring, distorting and ridiculing ......... His Law (Torah) ..... read Hebrews 8:10. Further, if one carefully reads this document you will notice [Jer. 31:31] speaks to Israel and Judah but, [Jer. 31:33] only mentions Israel --- this indicates that at some point during the completion of this new Covenant/Promise, God will bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy of Yehezqel (Ezekiel) chapter 37. In fact, Ezekiel 37 verse 28 defines one of the signs of this fulfillment "And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." This is another reason we know the "New Testament" has not yet come to fruition as God's Temple/sanctuary is not standing "in the midst" of Israel ............ "for evermore." And as indicated above the Tribulation ("after those days") is not an historical event, but a still future prophetic event.
Luke 16:17 (New Living Translation)
But that doesn't mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God's law to be overturned.
Romans 3:31 (New American Standard Bible)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
1 John 3:4 (New Living Translation)
Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.
Romans 2:13 (New Living Translation)
For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
1 John 3:24 (New International Version <http://biblehub.com/niv/1_john/3.htm>)
The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
2 John 1:6 (Weymouth New Testament)
The love of which I am speaking consists in our living in obedience to God's commands. God's command is that you should live in obedience to what you all heard from the very beginning.
James 4:11 (New Living Translation)
Don't speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God's law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you.
A -- Romans 2:26 (HYPERLINK "http://biblehub.com/web/romans/2.htm"New Living Translation)
And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be his own people?
B -- Romans 2:26 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)
So if a man does what Moses' Teachings demand, won't he be considered circumcised even if he is uncircumcised?
Thanks for the response.
Have been doing some studies on/about the New Testament.
I have attached a document of some of my thoughts (in very summarized form).
If you have a moment --- could you give me a short response about these thoughts ?
Shalom U'Brechot,
Clint
Attachment:
Within the Denominations of Christianity one hears the news about the "New Testament" and how many believe they belong to a New Testament Church. Yet, how many people actually know what defines this "New Testament?" The New Testament or more accurately "The New Covenant" is actually a prophecy, a promise, and a legal document detailing a binding vow attested to by God Himself. The legal wording of this New Covenant can be found in God's Word at Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah 31:31,37) and repeated at Hebrews 8:7 - 12.
Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) 31:31, 37 (AKJV) "Behold, the days come saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah." "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:" "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." "And they shall teach no more everyman his neighbour, and everyman his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." "Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar: The Lord of hosts is his name:" "If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever." "Thus saith the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord:"
**** Let's look now at specific points of the New Covenant ****
1. The "New" Covenant is between God, Israel and Judah. 2. The Covenant will be implemented at a specific time "after those days." We can find out after which days by looking at what God had just said in (Jeremiah 30:7). Thus, we find that this New Covenant will be implemented after the Tribulation ("the time of Jacob's trouble") not before. 3. The Covenant, when instituted, within the hearts of the people (Believers) there will no longer be any need for a Bayit Midrash (house of study) nor even a Church .... as this is where the knowledge of God is taught --- but since everyone will now have that knowledge written on their heart and will no longer need to be taught, there is no need for religious structures nor pastors or teachers (Jeremiah 31:34). 4. This Covenant is spoken, but not ratified or confirmed (with blood) at this time. Several hundred years later the confirmation is explained............. I Cor. 11:25 NLT In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant between God and his people--an agreement confirmed with my blood. Still this is not the implementation of the "New Covenant" (Testament) but rather the ratification or guarantee (by Messiah's blood) of its implementation at some future date ("after those days").
5. Also note, God says "if the sun stops shining, the moon and stars stop glowing and the sea becomes totally calm ... only then will this covenant and the nation of Israel cease to exist. What is it that God will write ON the hearts of his people? It is the very thing Christians have spent their lives evading, ignoring, distorting and ridiculing ......... His Law (Torah) ..... read Hebrews 8:10. Further, if one carefully reads this document you will notice [Jer. 31:31] speaks to Israel and Judah but, [Jer. 31:33] only mentions Israel --- this indicates that at some point during the completion of this new Covenant/Promise, God will bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy of Yehezqel (Ezekiel) chapter 37. In fact, Ezekiel 37 verse 28 defines one of the signs of this fulfillment "And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." This is another reason we know the "New Testament" has not yet come to fruition as God's Temple/sanctuary is not standing "in the midst" of Israel ............ "for evermore." And as indicated above the Tribulation ("after those days") is not an historical event, but a still future prophetic event.
Luke 16:17 (New Living Translation)
But that doesn't mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God's law to be overturned.
Romans 3:31 (New American Standard Bible)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
1 John 3:4 (New Living Translation)
Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God.
Romans 2:13 (New Living Translation)
For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
1 John 3:24 (New International Version <http://biblehub.com/niv/1_john/3.htm>)
The one who keeps God's commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
2 John 1:6 (Weymouth New Testament)
The love of which I am speaking consists in our living in obedience to God's commands. God's command is that you should live in obedience to what you all heard from the very beginning.
James 4:11 (New Living Translation)
Don't speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God's law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you.
A -- Romans 2:26 (HYPERLINK "http://biblehub.com/web/romans/2.htm"New Living Translation)
And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be his own people?
B -- Romans 2:26 (GOD'S WORD® Translation)
So if a man does what Moses' Teachings demand, won't he be considered circumcised even if he is uncircumcised?
-
Paul Cohen
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
Hi Clint,
Here's what I have to say in the Lord about the document you sent me - commenting item by item:
1. The "New" Covenant is between God, Israel and Judah.
Yes, if your understanding includes this:
Galatians 6:15-16 MKJV
(15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
(16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.
Romans 9:6-8 KJV
(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
2. The Covenant will be implemented at a specific time "after those days." We can find out after which days by looking at what God had just said in (Jeremiah 30:7). Thus, we find that this New Covenant will be implemented after the Tribulation ("the time of Jacob's trouble") not before.
The Bible is a spiritual Book. The application and fulfillment of this wonderful promise of God given through Jeremiah has been taking place for a long time already in those who receive Messiah Yeshua. Yes, there is the fulfillment to come of the dry bones of Israel that have been assembled in order to be brought to life by the Spirit of God, but limiting the meaning of these Scriptures to a specific historical event misses the mark of what the Lord is doing in the lives of those who believe here and now, the Israel of God.
“And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16 ESV).
Read Rapture before the Great Tribulation.
3. The Covenant, when instituted, within the hearts of the people (Believers) there will no longer be any need for a Bayit Midrash (house of study) nor even a Church .... as this is where the knowledge of God is taught --- but since everyone will now have that knowledge written on their heart and will no longer need to be taught, there is no need for religious structures nor pastors or teachers (Jeremiah 31:34).
There is confusion in this statement, Clint. Those who believe ARE the Church, the Assembly of God and Body of Christ, which is formed according to the new covenant described by Jeremiah. The churches of this world and the “religious structures” to which you refer have nothing to do with the Body of Christ, except to persecute it and Him. They're the works of men, the gates of hell and paths of the destroyer:
“Concerning the works of men, by the Words of Your lips, I am kept from the paths of the destroyer” (Psalms 17:4 MKJV).
When the miraculous faith of Christ begins the process of transformation in a soul as referred to in Jeremiah 31:34, it's true this person will have a personal connection with Christ as their Teacher, but that doesn't mean there won't be teachers or teaching given by Him through His appointed ministers:
Ephesians 4:11-16 MKJV
(11) And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
(12) for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
(13) And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
(14) so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit.
(15) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him Who is the Head, even Christ;
(16) from Whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.
Remember what Jesus said to Peter: “Feed My sheep.”
4. This Covenant is spoken, but not ratified or confirmed (with blood) at this time. Several hundred years later the confirmation is explained............. I Cor. 11:25 NLT In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant between God and his people--an agreement confirmed with my blood.
Still this is not the implementation of the "New Covenant" (Testament) but rather the ratification or guarantee (by Messiah's blood) of its implementation at some future date ("after those days").
The implementation has been ongoing as described in previous answers.
5. Also note, God says "if the sun stops shining, the moon and stars stop glowing and the sea becomes totally calm ... only then will this covenant and the nation of Israel cease to exist. What is it that God will write ON the hearts of his people? It is the very thing Christians have spent their lives evading, ignoring, distorting and ridiculing ......... His Law (Torah) ..... read Hebrews 8:10. Further, if one carefully reads this document you will notice [Jer. 31:31] speaks to Israel and Judah but, [Jer. 31:33] only mentions Israel --- this indicates that at some point during the completion of this new Covenant/Promise, God will bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy of Yehezqel (Ezekiel) chapter 37. In fact, Ezekiel 37 verse 28 defines one of the signs of this fulfillment "And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." This is another reason we know the "New Testament" has not yet come to fruition as God's Temple/sanctuary is not standing "in the midst" of Israel ............ "for evermore."
And as indicated above the Tribulation ("after those days") is not an historical event, but a still future prophetic event.
God's promises to the physical Jews and nation of Israel stand - who can effectively refute this with what has happened since 1948? Israel has gone through tribulation, is going through tribulation, and will go through tribulation. As for us, judgment begins at the House of God and He has purged us, as with all His sons and daughters. By His Spirit and grace we fulfill the Law of God today.
The Lord has given us much to say about the nation of Israel and physical Jews. See Israel and the Jew.
By the way, “Shaul” is Saul, not Paul. I would think you know that “Paul” isn't the anglicized version of “Shaul.” It would be interesting to know how or why Saul became Paul, but it wasn't because his name was directly transferred from one language to the other. When I was in Hebrew school I was called “Pesach,” but this name too doesn't have the same meaning as the language of origin. It did turn out to be prophetic, though.
Paul
Here's what I have to say in the Lord about the document you sent me - commenting item by item:
1. The "New" Covenant is between God, Israel and Judah.
Yes, if your understanding includes this:
Galatians 6:15-16 MKJV
(15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
(16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.
Romans 9:6-8 KJV
(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
2. The Covenant will be implemented at a specific time "after those days." We can find out after which days by looking at what God had just said in (Jeremiah 30:7). Thus, we find that this New Covenant will be implemented after the Tribulation ("the time of Jacob's trouble") not before.
The Bible is a spiritual Book. The application and fulfillment of this wonderful promise of God given through Jeremiah has been taking place for a long time already in those who receive Messiah Yeshua. Yes, there is the fulfillment to come of the dry bones of Israel that have been assembled in order to be brought to life by the Spirit of God, but limiting the meaning of these Scriptures to a specific historical event misses the mark of what the Lord is doing in the lives of those who believe here and now, the Israel of God.
“And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16 ESV).
Read Rapture before the Great Tribulation.
3. The Covenant, when instituted, within the hearts of the people (Believers) there will no longer be any need for a Bayit Midrash (house of study) nor even a Church .... as this is where the knowledge of God is taught --- but since everyone will now have that knowledge written on their heart and will no longer need to be taught, there is no need for religious structures nor pastors or teachers (Jeremiah 31:34).
There is confusion in this statement, Clint. Those who believe ARE the Church, the Assembly of God and Body of Christ, which is formed according to the new covenant described by Jeremiah. The churches of this world and the “religious structures” to which you refer have nothing to do with the Body of Christ, except to persecute it and Him. They're the works of men, the gates of hell and paths of the destroyer:
“Concerning the works of men, by the Words of Your lips, I am kept from the paths of the destroyer” (Psalms 17:4 MKJV).
When the miraculous faith of Christ begins the process of transformation in a soul as referred to in Jeremiah 31:34, it's true this person will have a personal connection with Christ as their Teacher, but that doesn't mean there won't be teachers or teaching given by Him through His appointed ministers:
Ephesians 4:11-16 MKJV
(11) And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
(12) for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
(13) And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
(14) so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit.
(15) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him Who is the Head, even Christ;
(16) from Whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.
Remember what Jesus said to Peter: “Feed My sheep.”
4. This Covenant is spoken, but not ratified or confirmed (with blood) at this time. Several hundred years later the confirmation is explained............. I Cor. 11:25 NLT In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant between God and his people--an agreement confirmed with my blood.
Still this is not the implementation of the "New Covenant" (Testament) but rather the ratification or guarantee (by Messiah's blood) of its implementation at some future date ("after those days").
The implementation has been ongoing as described in previous answers.
5. Also note, God says "if the sun stops shining, the moon and stars stop glowing and the sea becomes totally calm ... only then will this covenant and the nation of Israel cease to exist. What is it that God will write ON the hearts of his people? It is the very thing Christians have spent their lives evading, ignoring, distorting and ridiculing ......... His Law (Torah) ..... read Hebrews 8:10. Further, if one carefully reads this document you will notice [Jer. 31:31] speaks to Israel and Judah but, [Jer. 31:33] only mentions Israel --- this indicates that at some point during the completion of this new Covenant/Promise, God will bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy of Yehezqel (Ezekiel) chapter 37. In fact, Ezekiel 37 verse 28 defines one of the signs of this fulfillment "And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." This is another reason we know the "New Testament" has not yet come to fruition as God's Temple/sanctuary is not standing "in the midst" of Israel ............ "for evermore."
And as indicated above the Tribulation ("after those days") is not an historical event, but a still future prophetic event.
God's promises to the physical Jews and nation of Israel stand - who can effectively refute this with what has happened since 1948? Israel has gone through tribulation, is going through tribulation, and will go through tribulation. As for us, judgment begins at the House of God and He has purged us, as with all His sons and daughters. By His Spirit and grace we fulfill the Law of God today.
The Lord has given us much to say about the nation of Israel and physical Jews. See Israel and the Jew.
By the way, “Shaul” is Saul, not Paul. I would think you know that “Paul” isn't the anglicized version of “Shaul.” It would be interesting to know how or why Saul became Paul, but it wasn't because his name was directly transferred from one language to the other. When I was in Hebrew school I was called “Pesach,” but this name too doesn't have the same meaning as the language of origin. It did turn out to be prophetic, though.
Paul
-
Clint
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
Hello Path of Truth,
You recently answered some questions for me about the New Covenant --- and I thank you.
You happened to mention the Rapture in part of your answer and I would like to reference a problem I have.
1. All the Believers in Christ both past and present will be taken to heaven prior to the Tribulation.
2. At some point “all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26) thus Israel will finally get the Land they were promised.
3. Here is my problem --- Revelation 7:9 New International Version
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.
They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
AND
Revelation 7:14 English Standard Version
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
We seem to have the Church (in the pretrib- Rapture, The Jews of maybe 14 million people on the earth and then a 3rd group that “came out” endured the “great tribulation.”
Now, since Israel is committed to God and the Land --- and the Church is the Bride of Christ --- where does this 3rd group “no one could count” and “coming out of the great tribulation” fit in ??
Thanks,
Clint
You recently answered some questions for me about the New Covenant --- and I thank you.
You happened to mention the Rapture in part of your answer and I would like to reference a problem I have.
1. All the Believers in Christ both past and present will be taken to heaven prior to the Tribulation.
2. At some point “all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26) thus Israel will finally get the Land they were promised.
3. Here is my problem --- Revelation 7:9 New International Version
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.
They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
AND
Revelation 7:14 English Standard Version
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
We seem to have the Church (in the pretrib- Rapture, The Jews of maybe 14 million people on the earth and then a 3rd group that “came out” endured the “great tribulation.”
Now, since Israel is committed to God and the Land --- and the Church is the Bride of Christ --- where does this 3rd group “no one could count” and “coming out of the great tribulation” fit in ??
Thanks,
Clint
-
Paul Cohen
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
Hi Clint,
Either you haven't red the link I gave you, Rapture before the Great Tribulation, or you don't believe it.
I remember being a young believer and trying to figure out the time sequence of various events described in Revelation. Boy did I give myself a headache! Let me tell you kindly that your mental cogitations are going nowhere because they're not of faith. Only faith avails and will give you understanding through the fiery trials God ordains as needful for every son and daughter He brings into His Kingdom.
“Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand” (Daniel 12:10 MKJV).
Paul
Either you haven't red the link I gave you, Rapture before the Great Tribulation, or you don't believe it.
I remember being a young believer and trying to figure out the time sequence of various events described in Revelation. Boy did I give myself a headache! Let me tell you kindly that your mental cogitations are going nowhere because they're not of faith. Only faith avails and will give you understanding through the fiery trials God ordains as needful for every son and daughter He brings into His Kingdom.
“Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand” (Daniel 12:10 MKJV).
Paul
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Clinton Nauert
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
From ME ...."And THEY SHALL TEACH NO MORE everyman his neighbour, and everyman his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord
From YOU ..... When the miraculous faith of Christ begins the process of transformation in a soul as referred to in Jeremiah 31:34, it's true this person will have a personal connection with Christ as their Teacher, but that doesn't mean there won't be teachers or teaching given by Him through His appointed ministers:
From ME #2....So when God Himself says of the saved "they shall teach NO MORE" because there will be no need as "They will all know ME (the Lord God)" ---- you are saying BUT "that doesn't mean there won't be teachers ?" I am confused as to how that works --- since they will have the Law of God written (by God) on their hearts and in their minds, which is the mechanism that fully reveals The LORD ----Remember John 12:44 English Standard Version
"And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me." Thus, it would seem God's (the Lord) WORD is reasonably trustworthy as even Jesus (the Word, John 1:14) believes God is the Final Authority (meaning: Jesus believes The Father has final authority over His own Word).
From YOU ..... When the miraculous faith of Christ begins the process of transformation in a soul as referred to in Jeremiah 31:34, it's true this person will have a personal connection with Christ as their Teacher, but that doesn't mean there won't be teachers or teaching given by Him through His appointed ministers:
From ME #2....So when God Himself says of the saved "they shall teach NO MORE" because there will be no need as "They will all know ME (the Lord God)" ---- you are saying BUT "that doesn't mean there won't be teachers ?" I am confused as to how that works --- since they will have the Law of God written (by God) on their hearts and in their minds, which is the mechanism that fully reveals The LORD ----Remember John 12:44 English Standard Version
"And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me." Thus, it would seem God's (the Lord) WORD is reasonably trustworthy as even Jesus (the Word, John 1:14) believes God is the Final Authority (meaning: Jesus believes The Father has final authority over His own Word).
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Paul Cohen
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
The Scriptures you refer to, Clint, rendered in common language by the Good News Bible:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 GNB
(31) The LORD says, "The time is coming when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
(32) It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. Although I was like a husband to them, they did not keep that covenant.
(33) The new covenant that I will make with the people of Israel will be this: I will put My Law within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people.
(34) None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know the LORD, because all will know Me, from the least to the greatest. I will forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs. I, the LORD, have spoken."
Your question:
“So when God Himself says of the saved ‘they shall teach NO MORE’ because there will be no need as ‘They will all know ME (the Lord God)’ ---- you are saying BUT ‘that doesn't mean there won't be teachers’?”
You infer something that isn’t implied in Jeremiah, which leads you to a false conclusion. The specific message is, in plain modern day English, “None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know the LORD.” Knowing the LORD doesn’t preclude the necessity for teachers – it is in fact a prerequisite to receive and be taught by a godly teacher. One needs ears to hear. One needs a circumcised heart in order to be taught. Without first knowing the Spirit of Truth, how can anyone learn from the LORD?
“And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you” (John 14:16-17 MKJV).
The Scriptures talk about believers being taught by other believers. It is said that a man of faith needs to have been taught in the Word by others:
Hebrews 5:12-14 WEB
(12) For although by this time you should be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the revelations of God. You have come to need milk, and not solid food.
(13) For everyone who lives on milk is not experienced in the Word of Righteousness, for he is a baby.
(14) But solid food is for those who are full grown, who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.
Why would the Scriptures talk about teachers to those whom you wrongly conclude need no teachers?
“Let not many of you be teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive heavier judgment” (James 3:1 WEB).
You say:
“Thus, it would seem God's (the Lord) WORD is reasonably trustworthy as even Jesus (the Word, John 1:14) believes God is the Final Authority (meaning: Jesus believes The Father has final authority over His own Word).”
God’s Word, the Scriptures, are trustworthy – so why aren’t you believing them?
Jeremiah 31:31-34 GNB
(31) The LORD says, "The time is coming when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
(32) It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. Although I was like a husband to them, they did not keep that covenant.
(33) The new covenant that I will make with the people of Israel will be this: I will put My Law within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people.
(34) None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know the LORD, because all will know Me, from the least to the greatest. I will forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs. I, the LORD, have spoken."
Your question:
“So when God Himself says of the saved ‘they shall teach NO MORE’ because there will be no need as ‘They will all know ME (the Lord God)’ ---- you are saying BUT ‘that doesn't mean there won't be teachers’?”
You infer something that isn’t implied in Jeremiah, which leads you to a false conclusion. The specific message is, in plain modern day English, “None of them will have to teach a neighbor to know the LORD.” Knowing the LORD doesn’t preclude the necessity for teachers – it is in fact a prerequisite to receive and be taught by a godly teacher. One needs ears to hear. One needs a circumcised heart in order to be taught. Without first knowing the Spirit of Truth, how can anyone learn from the LORD?
“And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you” (John 14:16-17 MKJV).
The Scriptures talk about believers being taught by other believers. It is said that a man of faith needs to have been taught in the Word by others:
Hebrews 5:12-14 WEB
(12) For although by this time you should be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the revelations of God. You have come to need milk, and not solid food.
(13) For everyone who lives on milk is not experienced in the Word of Righteousness, for he is a baby.
(14) But solid food is for those who are full grown, who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.
Why would the Scriptures talk about teachers to those whom you wrongly conclude need no teachers?
“Let not many of you be teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive heavier judgment” (James 3:1 WEB).
You say:
“Thus, it would seem God's (the Lord) WORD is reasonably trustworthy as even Jesus (the Word, John 1:14) believes God is the Final Authority (meaning: Jesus believes The Father has final authority over His own Word).”
God’s Word, the Scriptures, are trustworthy – so why aren’t you believing them?
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Clinton Nauert
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
Here is what I am saying -- 1. The New Covenant has not been implemented because God says it will be implemented "after those days" explained at Jer. 30:7 -- and I do not believe we are living in the "after the tribulation era." 2. The New Covenant is when God writes his Law (Torah) UPON the hearts and minds of all believers instead of on Stone as He did at Sinai--- I do not believe this has been accomplished --- if it had, then we would all be like Jesus and we would all "know" the Lord (John 17:21). 3. Knowing the Lord God comes from completely knowing the Torah (which is what caused Jesus to be sinless). God has been trying to teach us Torah since Adam and Eve --- the final effort is for God to copy the method He used with Abraham and simply write Torah on our hearts and in our minds with His own hand. Once we have Torah imbedded in our being we will no longer need Teachers ---- but today and forward until AFTER the Tribulation we will still need Teachers. Now, this is a very difficult truth for most Christians since most do not believe the Law has any value in our lives, and that Jesus came carrying a New Testament under his arm which has nothing to do with the Torah or Covenants and that the Rapture will occur for Christians prior to the Tribulation and thus AFTER the Tribulation has nothing to do with Christians anyway. Jeremiah for most Christians must be read spiritually, which normally means "with opposite meaning to the plain text."
For instance Christians "know" that in the END "First" the Good will be Raptured and then those remaining (evil folks) will be dealt with. While Matthew 13:30 in Jesus' parable states just the opposite.
If I could achieve an anachronistic mind-set I would find it easy to agree with you ......... Sorry.
For instance Christians "know" that in the END "First" the Good will be Raptured and then those remaining (evil folks) will be dealt with. While Matthew 13:30 in Jesus' parable states just the opposite.
If I could achieve an anachronistic mind-set I would find it easy to agree with you ......... Sorry.
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Paul Cohen
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
"Here is what I am saying -- 1. The New Covenant has not been implemented..."
The entire testimony of what is commonly called "The New Testament" - with the Greek word for "Testament" being the same word for "Covenant" - refutes this evil notion that the Lord hasn't delivered the goods. You deny Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, Clint. You deny believers living without sin (Do Christians Sin?). You don't believe and are still in your sin.
Hebrews chapters 8 -10 gives a thorough and explicit description of how the New Covenant has taken effect.
But I say these things for those with ears to hear. You're stone deaf, Clint. What you think and write is total confusion, full of contradiction. There's no point in trying to disentangle your confoundedness because you insist on knowing what you're talking about. That makes you a damned fool.
For the sake of others, however, and for your judgment, here are three more writings addressing some of the issues brought up:
Law and Grace
How One Is Saved
Diabolical Doctrine - The Rapture
"Anachronistic"? Yes, Clint, you are out of order and time.
The entire testimony of what is commonly called "The New Testament" - with the Greek word for "Testament" being the same word for "Covenant" - refutes this evil notion that the Lord hasn't delivered the goods. You deny Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, Clint. You deny believers living without sin (Do Christians Sin?). You don't believe and are still in your sin.
Hebrews chapters 8 -10 gives a thorough and explicit description of how the New Covenant has taken effect.
But I say these things for those with ears to hear. You're stone deaf, Clint. What you think and write is total confusion, full of contradiction. There's no point in trying to disentangle your confoundedness because you insist on knowing what you're talking about. That makes you a damned fool.
For the sake of others, however, and for your judgment, here are three more writings addressing some of the issues brought up:
Law and Grace
How One Is Saved
Diabolical Doctrine - The Rapture
"Anachronistic"? Yes, Clint, you are out of order and time.
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Clinton Nauert
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
Your Words "There's no point in trying to disentangle your confoundedness because you insist on knowing what you're talking about. That makes you a damned fool."
My Words "So, fortunately YOU do not insist on knowing what YOU are talking about? "I am now projecting confusion - as we seem to have the same attitude!!
Jesus Words "Matthew 5:22 English Standard Version
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
So, as you are the patient Christian, armed with the Good News, you seek out the sinner --- but if the sinner does not fall at your feet in the presence of such great biblical knowledge -- you judge him worthless. If you ARE an "Elohim" when was this distinction placed upon you and by whom???
My Words "So, fortunately YOU do not insist on knowing what YOU are talking about? "I am now projecting confusion - as we seem to have the same attitude!!
Jesus Words "Matthew 5:22 English Standard Version
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
So, as you are the patient Christian, armed with the Good News, you seek out the sinner --- but if the sinner does not fall at your feet in the presence of such great biblical knowledge -- you judge him worthless. If you ARE an "Elohim" when was this distinction placed upon you and by whom???
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Victor Hafichuk
- Posts: 749
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am
Re: IF you made a list of Truth Teachers would the list contain any names other than yours?
Clint, plainly put, the Lord Jesus Christ has anointed us to speak His Word to the world in this last day of last days. You, on the other hand, are nothing more or less than a scoffer of the last days. Ignorantly, but not without condemnation, you scorn the Lord Jesus Christ, Whom we expressly represent.
Because you don’t receive His Word by us, your neck will be broken, and the Lord will, in due time, see that you DO fall at our feet.
Go your way. The Lord says He has never known you, a lawless one. Go with your gods and be destroyed with them. There will be no more postings from you.
Because you don’t receive His Word by us, your neck will be broken, and the Lord will, in due time, see that you DO fall at our feet.
Go your way. The Lord says He has never known you, a lawless one. Go with your gods and be destroyed with them. There will be no more postings from you.