Hi again Paul. I’ve been away for a couple of days. You are quite right! I read your email over again and I can see that I misunderstood what you were saying. The only “feedback” that I have to give you Paul is that I try to email my testimony to thirty different preachers of endless suffering in hell every day, guiding them to the evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God. In my haste to get thirty preachers done, I responded more to the title of your writing (THE DEADLY ERROR OF THE UNIVERSALISTS) rather than its content. As to the rest of what you said Paul I really don’t know how to respond to it so I won’t take the time to try.
My inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that the Bible teaches the doctrine of endless suffering in hell caused me to have a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) (I’m 66 now). Consequently it is my great pleasure to guide people to the information that shows that God is not like that. This information enabled me to recover from that breakdown. Since 1981 I have been able to help many other people who have suffered just like I have over that doctrine.
If it’s any help for you to understand me Paul, I have embraced the Concordant position on UR.
http://www.concordant.org/ and http://www.saviour-of-all.org/
Their UR book ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch starts off by saying, “The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing.” That’s what I believe.
PS: Thank you for your urls. I will add them to my list of UR sites.
God bless you Paul!
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada.
Rodger, I have some things to say here.
Though many things are possible, it is error to think that you had a nervous breakdown because of believing in eternal torment. I too believed in it, having been born and raised devout Catholic, even attending a minor seminary for a year. If you read Our Testimonies, you will find testimony that I genuinely believed that lie. When the Lord first made Himself known to me, I was never more frightened in my entire life, expecting I was forever damned. Yet, I was given to know that He was not condemning me, and that I still had hope. I set out to make myself acceptable and approved to Him, failed, and nearly gave up to do my own thing and perish, when He encouraged me to keep going. Finally, He redeemed me, after my effort and failure. I did not have a nervous breakdown.
Of all those I have witnessed with breakdowns, it seems there were certain common elements. One was the yearning for acknowledgment and acceptability, whether right or wrong, by those around us. It was not a matter of being right, but of having one’s own way. Two was pride, which goes with the first. Three was bitterness, which occurs when we do not get our way. Four was a feeling of despair and helplessness. This latter goes with the other three, because when we want our way and do not get it, refusing the only true way out of our state, that being humility, self-renunciation, confession and repentance toward God and man, we are trapped. In that trap, we are doomed for as long as it takes.
What I am saying, Rodger, is that we can never blame it on externals. When I first began to walk with the Lord and preach, He very clearly showed me that it was never our circumstances but our attitude towards our circumstances that was ever the issue, that would make or break us. Read Acceptance. Doctrine is circumstance. God is bigger than any circumstance, and when we acknowledge Him as Lord, that is, knowing that He is sovereign over all things, and that He is our ready and able Savior, we come into victory. To blame a doctrine or any external thing is to fall short of complete repentance and peace. While you preach the reconciliation of all things (a true doctrine) and the fallacy of eternal damnation (also true), you are, in effect, pointing to extraneous causes and saviors, thus failing to deal with the issue, which is one not of doctrine but of the heart.
We preach from and to the heart because we have come to rest in Jesus Christ, entering our Sabbath, having recognized, faced and acknowledged, by His grace, our culpability and responsibility before Him. Read Victims and Perpetrators. Without a full scale, public confession of ourselves as perpetrators, renouncing our lot as victims, there is not the freedom reserved by God; we fall short.
You replied to us without knowing what we were saying. You acknowledged so. The reason why you replied without knowledge, from what we witness and hear from your own Iips, is that you are hard at work, promoting the doctrine that you credit with saving you. Your focus is on works, but not on the Lord, or on doing right to your neighbor, Rodger. Two things: You would argue that you are doing right by your neighbor by preaching true doctrine, and that you are focusing on the Lord because you preach true doctrine. It is not true. We can appear to be serving the Lord, but He knows the heart, and shows the heart to whom He sends to speak a word and point the way.
You are so intent on “doing your neighbor right” and “serving God” that you paid no attention to our writing or to my letter and the many things I mention in it. I can barely tell you red it, except that you found you were wrong about what we preached. You are too busy for your neighbor and God, to fellowship, to acknowledge, to hear. Having committed yourself to such a demand as you have upon yourself, you are practicing a discernible fifth cause of nervous breakdowns, that being taking on burdens too great to accomplish, burdens not assigned by God, and thus incurring the consequences, such as eventual desperation, and guilt for unfinished work.
Unless you recognize your ultimate responsibility to be worshiping God, and thus doing His will, rather than what you have determined to be His will, you will not only fail in your self-imposed mission, as good as it may seem to you and others, but you could suffer consequences as bad as, if not worse than, the ones you have already suffered. I hope that for your sake, you read my letter this time, and pay closer, more sober attention to it. God does not want your works or doctrines (the Pharisees had “right doctrine” and works as well); He wants your heart.
“I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God” (Romans 12:1-2).
Walking by faith, out of which grow useful, good and true works, for God and man,
Victor
Rodger, Paul here.
The main point of “The Deadly Error of the Universalists” is that they have perverted the gospel, leaving out the vital element of the cross, which is not just a historical fact indicating the salvation of all, but is experienced in the here and now, as Jesus spoke of taking up one’s cross to follow Him. He said that was the only way to follow Him, in fact. You can find that in the Bible.
The reason you do not understand or know how to respond to this is because you lack it yourself. You are not saved. The work has been done, yes. No man could do it, yes. We rejoice to know it, yes. But not all have entered into the covenant of His blood. You have not entered into the covenant. That is why we labor in these things, as by the Lord, because He is yet working to that end. You labor too, but it is in doctrine, and not the Lord, as Victor has ably pointed out to you. You need to repent, Rodger, for serving anything other than the Lord is an idol, and it is written that you shall have no other gods before Him.
Theories and doctrines cannot solve the issues of the heart. Only the blood of Christ suffices, Whose flesh and blood we partake in if we follow and obey Him. I hope you are paying closer attention to what we are saying this time.
Hi again Paul. First of all I appreciate your concern about my spiritual welfare. I did read your first email carefully the second time, and I also read this one carefully too. Paul, the only thing that I really care about is that all of the arguments (and I’m sure I’ve heard them all) that I have ever heard during my 66 years of living, in support of the idea that the Bible teaches that God allows anyone to suffer forever in hell or is annihilated, have been refuted on these tentmaker sites.
http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
and
http://weblogs.oxegen.us/victorious_gospel [website now defunct]
Had I known about this information during my youth, I never would have had a nervous breakdown. In spite of your opinion Paul, I know that it was my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would allow any creature to suffer forever that did, in fact, cause my nervous breakdown, and it gives me great pleasure to share this information that helped me to recover, with hundreds of pastors. The responses are all the way from very negative to very positive.
PauI, I would like to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. Only he is much more eloquent in telling his story than I am in telling mine. His name is Charles Slagle. After you get to his website at http://www.sigler.org/slagle/ then click on Absolute Assurance in the left hand column. It’s quite long, but read the whole thing. It may well begin to change your thinking about the life experiences of both Charles and myself. If after reading Charles’ testimony you still think the same way about us both, then there really is nothing that either of us can do about it is there?
But like I said at the beginning, I do appreciate your concern about my spiritual welfare!
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28
Hi Rodger,
Firstly, Victor wrote you the last letter, not I. We work together in the ministry the Lord has given us.
Secondly, you have not red the writing I sent you very carefully, as you claim, because if you had you would know that I am familiar with Charles Slagle, having answered his “prophecy” in the Appendices following the writing (please look again). The “prophecy” he gave is a lie, from his own carnal mind that impersonates God. The man does not know God. If he did, he would not prophesy falsely. I have pointed out specifically why that prophecy was not of God. These are facts. Charles does not perceive or recognize the Spirit of God, His intentions or words. He claims to know that God is unending love, but what good is his knowledge when he reacts in aggressive fear against the love of God when we approach him in the Spirit of God? No, Slagle has not arrived where he thinks or claims to be. He needs to repent. But he must first suffer the fruits of his doings until he is prepared to receive the truth.
We have also dealt with Gary Amirault of “Tentmaker,” and he too does not know the Lord. He may have some true teachings, but so what? Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God, although truths they happen to preach will serve others well if they receive them, as apparently with you. But you are still in need of hearing what we have told you, Rodger. You are serving an idol, not God. You need to repent. However, we are not here to strive with you. Go your way with your doctrine that you worship. It will eventually fail you too, and then you will know the truth of our words, when God grants you to know.
To Paul and Victor. You are an interesting pair!
The doctrine of the Bible teaching universal transformation is not my God. I don’t worship it. But learning about its truth has transformed my life from a life of uncontrollable fear (in a 12 year hell) to a life of joy. That is why I love to daily share the evidence that proves that it is true with others. My God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and my Father too. I am just so glad that He has given me this opportunity to share with others what is such a great help to me. For that opportunity I thank and worship Him alone.
Incidentally guys, I first became convinced that God is going to save everyone by repeatedly listening to hundreds of tapes by Ray Prinzing over a period of many years. I am curious to find out if you have negative things to say about him too? Actually I am beginning to wonder if you have anything good to say about anyone at all besides yourselves?! 🙁
If I need correction from God in any area, God knows that I welcome it with an open heart.
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28
Hi Rodger,
Yes, we are indeed an interesting pair, even to ourselves and to those close to us. I believe that we are an interesting pair to the angels, and even the Lord Himself. He is very interested in us because of what He has done in, for, and now is doing through us.
Again, I can understand why believing a lie can do great damage, and getting the record straight can be quite revolutionary. It happens all the time in the world, in many ways. Sailors’ health and even lives were saved when they discovered they needed to take lemons with them on their voyages. What a difference a lemon and the discovery of its value and application can make! It is all part of the learning process here for all mankind.
However, we speak of something higher than a doctrine, as good as it is, something that God wills, and which will happen for all men, each in his order. Men do not become transformed into the image of God by hearing or knowing that all will be saved. They become transformed by dying on the cross and being raised from the dead, which is what has happened to Paul, and to me. (Has it happened to you, Rodger?) I personally know of others who, while they believe all will be saved, live in the world and care nothing for God. You may know some as well. A fellow just the other day said to me, “My take on life is this: we all came from the same place and are all headed to the same place.” There is truth in that. He knows nothing and cares nothing for the Lord Jesus Christ. Only the cross will change him.
You are quite skeptical of us for preaching against the subtle error of so many others. You ask us about Ray Prinzing. In my spiritual journey in the ’70’s and ’80’s, I enquired of the Lord concerning many men and organizations (churches), starting with Billy Graham immediately after we received the Spirit of God. He has been faithful to answer on all matters, Rodger. Yes, Ray Prinzing too is not a genuine servant of God. I too heard his tapes, and I too can testify that he has preached truths, but the Lord revealed to me that he was very religious, steeped in his own righteousness, stubborn in all his ways (that is why he suffered so many tragedies and hardships, contrary to God’s promises of Deuteronomy 28 and this one):
“And he said, If you will carefully listen to the voice of Jehovah your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His Laws, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah Who heals you” (Exodus 15:26).
Some have proclaimed Ray to be a great man of God, who suffered many things for various reasons – preparation, chastening, satanic opposition – but the truth is that Ray’s heart was hard, practically incorrigible. As it is written:
“Fools are afflicted because of their rebellion, and because of their iniquities” (Psalms 107:17).
And: “An evil one seeks only rebellion; so a cruel messenger shall be sent against him” (Proverbs 17:11).
Ray was using God to glorify himself, and few knew it. God knows the heart. He was not crucified with Christ. His preaching was ostentatious. I know a man who praises him and who Ray Prinzing praised or encouraged in his ways. He knows nothing but the doctrine of the reconciliation of all things, with all the attendant arguments, full of scorn, pride, and stubbornness. He writes ignorant articles to the newspaper, thinking he is something extra special, all because he believes he is spiritually superior because he “knows that all will be saved,” and all others who do not have that doctrine are so stupid. These are Prinzing’s doings in part, not that scoundrels will not answer for themselves, and a leader is not always to blame for wayward followers.
The knowledge and eloquent putting forth of good doctrine is not good enough for the Lord, Rodger, not nearly. “All of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.” We desperately need the death sentence pronounced and executed upon us. You are still alive, and while you live, you are dead, as are all others who live and who have never died. When Paul said, “I am crucified with Christ,” he meant the reality and not the theory of it; he meant the present experience of it and not the historical event; he meant his blood, and not Christ’s separate from his; he meant his cross with Christ, and not Christ’s separate from his. That is what we mean. In that way, Rodger, we are indeed interesting fellows.
We perceive that we are rare, misunderstood, and hated by the man of sin who takes any doctrine, any religion, and any profession of faith, as true as any might be, but who avoids the cross like the plague. The man of sin will give all but his very life. He will imitate Christ in every way conceivable, except for the cross. The cross of Christ is the answer for every man, not in theory, not in doctrine, not in historical fact, but in present applied reality. God alone can make that happen. We know whereof we speak. Yes, we have many “negative” things to say of many. That is because there are many negative things to say of many. However, Rodger, we are not here to oppose men. We are here, for His sake, to oppose their works:
“Concerning the works of men, by the Words of Your lips, I am kept from the paths of the destroyer” (Psalms 17:4).
In His victory, and thankful to be identified with Him by His cross and resurrection within, here and now, the true gospel,
Victor
Here is what I know for sure Victor and Paul. The blind man that Jesus healed said,
“Whether He be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.”
And I can say, “Whether or not you are right about Ray Prinzing, and whether or not you are right about what you think is wrong with me (although God has not quickened to my spirit that you are right): one thing I know is that I was able to recover from a twelve year hell of horrific suffering by learning that the Bible teaches that God is going to save everyone. And I have read the testimonies of many other people who found the same deliverance by finding out that the Bible teaches that God is going to save everyone. That is why I shall continue to share this information with 30 preachers of endless- suffering-in-hell, every day. You guys call that “idolatry.” I call it sharing the good news of what God is really like so He can be worshiped “in truth.”
I believe that 2Cor:5:18,19 is my mandate, and I shall respond to it in the way that I perceive that God wants me to. Here is what it says: “Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offences to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.” (Concordant translation) You probably see Canadian George Hawtin, and Dean Hough, Jim Coram, John Essex, J. Preston Eby, and A.E. Knoch in the same negative light do you not? I would like to know. These are all guys whose writings have been a huge help to me! My wife and I were kicked out of out of a missionary organization (after seven years of service), and we lost all of our friends, for being vocal of our rejection of the Bible teaching the doctrine of endless suffering in hell. So we know what it’s like to “take up our cross.”
Tell me something Victor and Paul. Do you perceive yourselves to be in a spiritually superior realm than the rest of us? You seem to believe that God’s mandate to you both is to get everyone else to act in a way that meets the approval of the two of you, as though you were God Himself. I feel condemned by you two, but I do not feel condemned by God. And it is He to Whom I will have to answer.
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28
Rodger,
You only further prove your idolatry by saying that the sharing of “the good news of what God is really like” (in which you refer to the teaching of the doctrine of the reconciliation of all things) will enable people to worship Him “in truth.”
There is more to God than this one doctrine. To say that the teaching of this, or any doctrine, will show people what God is really like, is a lie. What about His wrath, for example? Is He not like that as well?
“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God; on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also shall be cut off” (Romans 11:22).
Are you not unbalanced as those who spoke to you of God’s judgments and hell were, even if they were mistaken on the word “eternal”? Yes, you are.
Therefore you are in error to say that you are presenting God as He is. You are doing nothing of the sort. You are like the proverbial man in the dark who describes an elephant by his trunk, or foot alone.
It is not the true, real, alive, complete Lord Jesus Christ that you are presenting. If you win anyone to anything, it is to a false image of Christ, based on what men would prefer to see and know about Him. You are not presenting the One Who says “Repent” to all, and the One to Whom men, in their sins, do not find themselves attracted. Rather, this is how they feel about seeing Him:
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Revelation 6:16-17)
Did men find God attractive when He came to them in the flesh? Jesus testified otherwise to His disciples:
“If I had not done among them the works which no other did, they would not have had sin. But now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father” (John 15:24).
And lest you think that was then, and things are different now, He also said:
“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they have kept My saying, they will also keep yours” (John 15:18-20).
Do they persecute us, His saints, because we tell them God is love? Or do they persecute us because we tell them their sins? And how else can we call on men to repent? How can they enter into His forgiveness and the reality that their sins are not being imputed to them, if they are not called to account for their sins? A man who does not know he owes a debt cannot appreciate forgiveness of that debt. You are preaching a false gospel, Rodger. You have no discretion or wisdom in what you say or to whom. That was evident, even by your own reckoning, in the way you responded to our initial writing.
What you are doing is no different than declaring clemency to hardened criminals. You say to the preachers of hell, who are the children of hell, “God will save all of you, enter into the joy of the Lord.” Whereas the Lord, at the appropriate time (when the Son of man comes in His glory, something you have not experienced or known) speaks this way to those who presume to usurp His Name and authority:
“Then shall He say also to those on the left hand, Go you from Me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that has been prepared for the Devil and his messengers…” (Matthew 25:41 Young’s Literal Translation).
Are you speaking His words, or are you speaking your own? No matter that God will save all, it will be done in His way, in His timing, by His wisdom, through His judgment, which you need to enter into yourself first, before preaching salvation to others. Truly, you can only give what you have. At this time you have some doctrine, but not Christ. We are, in the Person of Christ, telling you that you need to have Him, not doctrine.
The issue is not George Hawtin, Ray Prinzing, or Preston Eby, but Rodger Tutt. You are the one to whom we speak. You are the one in need of repentance from doing your own thing, and to learn obedience to Him so that you will do His will that leads into salvation. “He that gathers not with Me, scatters,” He says. That is where you are at, Rodger. You are scattering, in error by your very ways, and you harm yourself by faulting the messengers who bring you a true message of reconciliation. These are the only words of hope that you will hear.
Will a promise of peace substitute for the real thing? Will a picture of woman suffice for a wife? The Scripture says:
“Under three things the earth quakes, and under four it is not able to bear up: for a servant when he reigns; and a fool when he is filled with food; for a hateful woman when she is married; and a servant girl that is heir to her mistress” (Proverbs 30:21-23).
You propose, suggest, or imply that anyone at anytime can be the Lord’s bride; “Just say, ‘I do;’ just believe that all will be saved.” The general and whole truth of the Scriptures means nothing to idolaters who take certain portions and run off with them, glorifying their gods. Are you not aware of the solemn admonition put forth three times in Scripture? Here is one of those:
“For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book” (Revelation 22:18-19).
How long will you stand off afar, rejoicing that the battle is won, while you stand in enemy territory, even with the enemy? Wake up, Rodger!
“Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame” (1 Corinthians 15:33-34).
If you feel condemned, Rodger, it is your unbelief that condemns you. If we condemn, it is to condemn that which condemns, that being doctrine that leads astray if not balanced with the whole counsel of God. If your god is not condemning you, it is no wonder. There is no god but God. Other gods are dead or nonexistent and cannot convince of sin.
Nevertheless, we do not condemn you. We do speak as God, because we are sent of Him, and speak that which He has revealed to us. You are answering to Him even as we speak, Rodger. He is very patient with you, while you resist and mock.
Speaking of George Hawtin, I have reason to believe that back in the ’70’s, he was humble enough to receive correction from the Lord by me when writing to him to correct him on his thoughts and beliefs about Mystery, Babylon. I was strong with him, but he later changed his writing on the subject, admitting he did not fully understand. It would be wonderful if all received correction and profited both for themselves and others. It does not appear you are too interested in that at all. That is too bad; it cannot be good.