We received this reply to A Cloud Without Water:
Dear Sir
My name is Scott Haas and my father, Ramon A Haas (now deceased), started a “christian cult” called “The Assembly of the Body of Christ” in the late 60’s (it was simply called “The Group” in the beginning). It still exists, unfortunately, and I have, to the best of my ability, written the history of this organization after having been thrust out (thank God) a number of years ago. My father, having been caught in no small personal moral error in about 1968, split with Watt and soon after began his own church modeled nearly precisely after what Watt began at Broadway Tabernacle in Seattle (Panins Stegenga…). However this time church buildings were outlawed and replaced with home living rooms instead. Didn’t matter…the living room became the place of worship rather than the temple of the Holy Spirit of which we can become. The ABC is somewhat “underground” and secretive and has public and secret meetings.
I have begun to read some of your correspondence with Watt. Having read (as much as I could stand anyhow) his Twelve Embryonic whatevers on his website and also having viewed his DVD’s (as I sorted out some of the things that happened in my life) I can only say it is all rather strange, to say the least. I am still looking for the baby we were not supposed to throw out with the bathwater. Stillborn maybe?
Anyhow, forgive my snideness. I have little patience and tolerance for these types anymore and woke up some years ago to some great real truths. The link to my site is www.abchistory.com should you desire to peruse one of the other babies Watt was, unknown to him really, responsible for bringing into this world. We can thank the Shepherding movement as well for many of the things that happened but the main focus of the ABC is a worshp of Ivan Panin and John Stegenga, with which, in an effort to “rightly divde the truth”, they rip and shred men’s souls. I sound as if I jest but it is also a great sadness to me as I know many who are mortally wounded from their blunt blows of scripture.
Note: Much of my writing on the site is written to expose the fact that the ABC is just as much a denomination (they insist they are not a denomination but are something “ultra-special” God planted on earth through my dad) as any other out there and some of it is intended to refute some of their private doctrines so there may be bits that seem odd.
I wish you well.
Scott Haas
Victor’s reply:
Hi Scott,
We received your letter and perused your site. You have had it quite rough, at least partially as a result of your father’s wayward life. Of course, this is nothing new; there are so many that have suffered; there is not a family on earth that has not been touched with tragedy, sorrow, and suffering because of sin, unbelief, ignorance, and false doctrine.
Correct me if I am wrong, but judging by your letter and site, you lay a considerable amount of the blame for your family’s sufferings on Watt, the Shepherding movement, and the Latter Rain movement. What about your father? Is not the iniquity of the fathers visited to their third and fourth generations?
I don’t doubt Watt had culpability (judging by his present stance and his testimony of the past); when it comes right down to it, however, each man gets what is coming to him and will be delivered according to the degree of faith and obedience toward God.
Think about it: Is God unjust that He should not deliver such as are for Him and who believe and keep His commandments, regardless of circumstances or people? If the Lord cannot keep us as He promised, then He is not God and we need to find another. The one who does not or cannot keep his own is not worthy.
Therefore, if your father had not been walking independently of God, he would not have fallen prey to Watt or anyone else. Of course, I recognize that you acknowledge your father’s sin of adultery.
I hope we can help you, Scott, not that you appear to be asking for help. I am left with the impression that you are a hurt and cynical soul with an axe to grind and an agenda of revenge and/or trying to salvage something worthwhile from your past. We perceive you as being full of bitterness. While bitterness can be understandable, given your background and “the sins of the fathers,” it will not do for you. There is a way out, that Way being none other than Jesus Christ Himself, Whom we know and serve.
The ABC is full of the markings of men (always was, according to your record) as are all the formal religious organizations presenting themselves in His Name, whether they are denominated or not. And people are as dumb sheep, easily deceived and led to slaughter. We are here to speak the truth unequivocally and to bring people to freedom in Christ, if they are for it.
This brings me to another subject, which may be of value to you, depending on what you do with it. I tried the “Super Apostle Detector” and found that by its criteria, we should be avoided by seekers of truth and good. I decided to approach the questionnaire from not only how I would answer, but also how the Lord and His apostles would have answered, had they been exposed to your quiz while on earth. They also miserably failed the test – considerably more so than did I.
According to this “Detector,” the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures is to be avoided like the plague, along with His disciples. You can see the answers below.
While logic might suggest that I, as a true Christian, could have answered the quiz more like the Lord would have answered it, we do each have our individual calling in certain respects. In any case, I will share with you how I answered and how I believe the Lord would not only answer, but be compelled to answer.
My question to you then, would be, “How can you justify a questionnaire that judges good and evil, when it condemns the One you presume to serve?”
Let me digress briefly before we go to the quiz, Scott. Though I have my infirmities, which God has been pleased to leave with me, so that He might both receive all the glory and necessarily humble me, I can earnestly confess to you that there is nothing more that I want than His perfect will. By His grace, I am prepared to do whatever He requires of me to have it. (This goes for Paul Cohen, my brother and co-worker in Christ, as well; perhaps it also goes for others among us.)
That desire or will has been with me for decades and remains every bit as strong in me as at the beginning, in the early seventies. I also say that I have been granted the fulfillment of that desire, which should not seem strange, since only He could be the Author of such desire in the first place, and He will perform His will, no element of all His creation withstanding Him. We are doing precisely what He has given us to do and, by His grace, will perform His perfect will to the finish.
I have done this quiz and submit the results to you, along with the reasonings for my answers, not only for my sake, but yours, to demonstrate that you have need to soberly re-examine and reconsider your position and perspective.
Let’s begin, but keep in mind that when I answer for myself, I also answer for those who follow me and when I answer for the Lord, I also answer for those who followed the Lord in His day as to how they would answer. Is that presumptuous of me? I don’t think so, judging by the nature of these questions, which can be commonly applied to all those professing faith.
Does your Pastor claim to have an ‘Apostolic Mandate’?
My answer was “No,” referring to myself, for I am a shepherd under the Shepherd of shepherds for our little flock. I have never seen myself as having an “apostolic mandate,” whatever that is supposed to mean. So far, so good for me, as far as you seem to be concerned.
However, if Jesus were to answer, I do believe He would have had no choice but to reply with a “Yes.” The Scripture refers to Him as such:
“Therefore, holy brothers, called to be partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus” (Hebrews 3:1 MKJV).
So far, not so good for Him.
Does your Pastor claim to be an Apostle?
I answered “No,” but again, Jesus would have to answer “Yes.” He would go on to say, “Yes, and more than an apostle is here.”
Has your Pastor used the term ‘Apostolic Authority’?
I answered “No,” but what about Jesus?
“And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28 MKJV).
Who is greater, and who has apostolic authority, if not the Great Apostle and the One Who appoints apostles to judge?
But you might say, “You can’t use Jesus for an example here, because there are no longer genuine apostles today. So for Him to answer ‘Yes’ is fine, while for you it would be wrong.” To which I reply, “While you may be right about there being no true apostles around today (I know of none, though I know of many who claim to be), you really don’t know, do you?”
There is no evidence in the Bible whatsoever that apostles did not continue after Bible times. For example, what were Barnabas and Silas, if not apostles? Furthermore, it is not to be assumed that any of the five ministries listed in Ephesians have been discontinued:
“And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-12 MKJV).
If all five are for edifying the Body of Christ, and if the Body of Christ exists to this day and needs edification, then would it not be reasonable to think that all five ministries would continue to this day?
Does your church give your leaders expensive gifts to ‘honor’ them?
I answered “No”; but what about Jesus, or someone following Him in His days on earth? The question might need to be worded to ask if the leaders require expensive gifts of honor from their flock, but it is not worded that way. As worded, how would Jesus be forced to reply?
John 12:3-8 MKJV
(3) Then Mary took a pound of ointment of pure spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the odor of the ointment.
(4) Then said one of His disciples (Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who was to betray Him)
(5) Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?
(6) He said this, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief and held the moneybag and carried the things put in.
(7) Then Jesus said, Let her alone. She has kept this for the day of My burial.
(8) For you have the poor with you always; but you do not always have Me.
Is there a perception in your church that your leader’s pronouncements come directly from God?
I answered “Yes,” as has been the case many times. It is called “prophesying,” or a “word of knowledge,” or “word of wisdom,” or “tongues” with “interpretation” (1 Corinthians 12). These are gifts of the Spirit, straight from God, seeing as how He speaks by the vessel. Of course, most, if not all, of the others with me have also spoken prophetically, so I am not unique in our midst by any means. They and I have also received many dreams and visions of God, which Joel and Peter prophesied would come to pass.
Again, someone truly following Jesus in the day of His flesh would have to lie to answer “No” to this question. You might also protest, “That was Jesus, the Son of God, and no ordinary man or minister.” That is true, but did He not commission His apostles and send them to work in His stead (John 20:21)? Do they not speak the Word of God? Are not their words Scripture? Didn’t Paul say, “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 14:37 KJV)?
Do you spend more time studying your leader’s teachings than studying the Bible by itself (without reference to your leader’s teachings)?
I answered, “No,” but what would Jesus or someone following Him answer? It could be, “No,” and it could perhaps be, “Yes,” could it not, if we understand your question?
I think that, by now, it should be coming clear to you that the person who designed this “Detector” did not at all have the Lord Jesus or His true followers in mind. And should it be any different for us today than it was for His disciples then? Thus far, you condemn Him, do you not? Let’s go on.
Is your tithing recorded so leaders can monitor your giving?
I answered, “No.” Now while Jesus would have answered, “No,” He certainly rewards man according to the fruit of his doings and causes him to reap as he has sown. Still, I think we can give you and Him the benefit of doubt and let the record stand that He would reply, “No.”
Does your leadership constantly put a great deal of pressure on church members to tithe? Do they always seem to be going on about it?
We would both answer “No.”
Are the rich treated any differently from the average folk in your church?
I answer, “No.” Jesus would answer, “No.” But did all His followers treat the rich objectively? I know they didn’t by at least two testimonies. One, the disciples were amazed when the rich young ruler walked away sad, because he was very rich.
“Then Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. And again I say to you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (Matthew 19:23-24 MKJV).
Did the disciples treat the rich any differently? Their reaction was telling:
“When His disciples heard, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?” (Matthew 19:25 MKJV)
And what did James have to deal with, if not bias toward the rich?
James 2:1-4 MKJV
(1) My brothers, do not have the faith of our Lord Christ, the Lord of glory, with respecter of faces.
(2) For if there comes a gold-fingered man in fancy clothing into your assembly, and if there also comes in a poor man in shabby clothing,
(3) and if you have respect to him who has the fancy clothing and say to him, You sit here in a good place, and say to the poor, You stand there, or sit here under my footstool;
(4) Did you not make a difference among yourselves and became judges with evil thoughts?
But if you are asking if, as a policy (likely you are), the rich are treated with favor, I answer, “No,” and the Lord and His disciples would reply likewise.
Are you always being encouraged to go to expensive conferences?
We both answer, “No.”
If you thought your leader had taught something unscriptural, would you be very scared to approach him regarding your concern?
For my part, while I cannot answer this question for those who follow me, I would hope they would not be afraid. This I know: Many have openly questioned many things I have said, and I presume they would do so if something sufficiently concerned them. What about those who followed the Lord in His day? One would hope they could all answer, “No,” but there were times when they were afraid to ask things of Him:
“For He taught His disciples and said to them, The Son of Man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him. And after He is killed, He shall rise the third day. But they did not understand that saying and were afraid to ask Him” (Mark 9:31-32 MKJV).
If their answer is, “Yes,” would you be advising them to leave the Lord? Did they know whether what He was saying was Scriptural or not?
“But they did not understand this, and it was hidden from them so that they did not perceive it. And they feared to ask Him of this word” (Luke 9:45 MKJV).
“And He took the Twelve and said to them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. For He will be delivered to the nations and will be mocked and insulted and spat on. And they will scourge Him and put Him to death, and the third day He will rise again. And they did not understand any of these things. And this saying was hidden from them, nor did they know the things which were spoken” (Luke 18:31-34 MKJV).
And who is to be judge as to whether something is Scriptural or not? We teach many doctrines that are judged unScriptural by many. Are we wrong, or are our judges wrong? Tens of thousands of denominations are teaching doctrines contrary to one another, all thinking the others wrong.
Are you one to judge what is Scriptural or not? What about this questionnaire? Is it Scriptural?
Are you encouraged or commanded not to see ex-members of your church?
I answered, “No,” because I have never been confronted with such circumstances in quite this way as I understand the question, but the answer could well be, “Yes,” in certain cases. In your case, if we are to believe your testimony of how they ostracized you without good cause, it was evil, though even you say it was good that you were separated from ABC. But should it always be wrong to be given such a command?
Would Jesus answer, “No,” for His followers? What about the apostle Paul?
“But now I have written to you not to associate intimately, if any man called a brother and is either a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one not to eat” (1 Corinthians 5:11 MKJV).
Would they answer, “Yes,” or, “No”? Were the following persons ex-members of their church? Could be:
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house, nor speak a greeting to him. For he who speaks a greeting to him is partaker of his evil deeds” (2 John 1:10-11 MKJV).
“Now we command you, brothers, in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother who walks disorderly, and not after the teaching which he received from us” (2 Thessalonians 3:6 MKJV).
How would Jesus, Paul, and John, or those following them have been compelled to answer this question? According to these Scriptural testimonies, their answer could have been, and likely would have been, “Yes.”
Is it a matter of whether they are ex-members, or is it a matter of what they are teaching, no matter who they are or were? As it stands, your sifter has gaping holes in it, letting the good fall with the bad, as do so many other man-made “cult judgment” systems.
Is it implied that your church, or group of churches, are the only church(es) really following God in your country?
My answer is, “Yes,” but with qualification. If by “church,” you speak of a local body, the answer is, “No,” but if you speak of the universal Body of Christ, of which there is but one, as opposed to false churches, of which there are many, then I have no choice but to reply affirmatively, in which case, the red light would flash furiously and the buzzer would blast the countryside for miles around.
What would the Lord and His disciples reply? What do you think? Would He recommend the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Herodians, or some other nondescript group as viable? Indeed, He warned against them.
He said, “Upon this rock, I will build My Church…” not churches. However, churches multiplied, and though there were then many local groups, they were one if they were His. But what if they were not living in His Spirit? What if they were doing their own thing, as many do? In such cases, they would not be recommended by any sane disciple of Christ.
Wouldn’t you agree? So, are you wise enough to know where to draw the line between good and bad? Not according to this questionnaire, you aren’t.
Is it implied that to leave your church for another church is to automatically disobey God’s will for your life?
I would answer, “No,” at least, “Not necessarily.” Would it not depend on why they were leaving and where they were going? And is it about being a member in a church, or is it about walking with God?
What would Jesus or His disciples reply? When John came to Him, reporting that others were casting out devils in His Name and not following with them, He replied:
“And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out demons in Your name, and he does not follow us. And we forbade him, because he does not follow us. But Jesus said, Do not forbid him. For there is no one who shall do a work of power in My name who can lightly speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us” (Mark 9:38-40 MKJV).
But are you suggesting that one cannot go against God’s will by leaving one church and going to another? What if one decided to leave a fellowship which walked in the Spirit and that rightly divided the Word, and were to join the Mormons or JW’s or Catholics or any number of churches today that are not teaching good doctrine?
Or are you saying that a leader in a church does not have the right to warn his sheep who contemplate leaving a sound church for a “cult”? Did not Jesus warn His disciples of other groups?
“And Jesus said to them, Take heed, and beware the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees” (Matthew 16:6 MKJV).
Are you not shooting yourself in the foot, Scott?
Are you taught that you must obey your leaders in your personal lives; can they tell you who to marry, or what job to take, for example?
I answer, “Yes,” and what would the Lord and His disciples reply?
What did Jesus say to the rich young ruler? Or to the man who wanted to first go home and bury his father? What did Paul counsel the Corinthians concerning relationships? “Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers.” If one of his followers wished to marry an unbeliever, what do you think Paul would tell him or her? As a shepherd, would it not be his duty to advise against it in principle?
This question seems quite suggestive and foolish, Scott, as many of them do. What does the author mean by “personal lives”? Where do you draw the line? Do you have the wisdom and knowledge to know where to draw it? How personal is “personal”?
How would Jesus answer? He called men away from their jobs. Why should He not advise them to jobs or against certain jobs, “for example”?
Have you divided the spiritual walk into secular and spiritual? Do you assume that a shepherd has jurisdiction in the life of a sheep only in “spiritual matters”? Are not all matters of interest to the Lord? Is He not Creator of all things, both physical and spiritual?
Does a shepherd draw the line with pasturing and watering during the day and then allow sheep to do as they please “after hours”? What if a sheep decides to “personally” choose to jump over a cliff or eat poison weeds or ram other sheep or lie down near a serpent’s den? Where does the shepherd draw the line? If the Lord assigns shepherds to feed His sheep, where should the line be drawn?
Is it not the duty of a knowledgeable leader to advise on carnal matters?
I tell my sheep what to eat and what to wear. We see today that physical diet and good filtered water are important (maybe you don’t; we do – poor diets and tap water are killing people, with cancer, heart disease, arthritis…).
We know that a man should not be abusing his wife and children at home, and a woman should not be flirting with men privately or publicly.
Where do you draw the line? Home and “church”? Day and night? Secular and religious? Physical and spiritual? Where?
If one masturbates in the privacy of his or her bedroom or bathroom, does the leader have no jurisdiction to rebuke him or her for it?
What about the case of the Corinthian who was bedding his father’s wife? Is that private or a “church matter”?
If a member wishes to join an investment firm that God reveals to the pastor to be an unwise thing to do, shall the pastor keep silent?
The answer in part is that it is not about the act, but about the motive of the act. You are judging after the appearance, which the Lord warned against.
Another part of the answer is about whether the leader is appointed of God or doing his own thing. Read Here Is the Way It Is. (Given your perspective, I highly doubt you will take kindly to it.)
Scott, we perceive that in your bitterness and carnal understanding, you sit in judgment of Jesus Christ Himself.
Does your church preach a ‘prosperity’ message, constantly equating God’s blessing with monetary blessing?
I answer, “No,” and the Lord and His disciples would answer, “No.”
Still, He did say that if one forsook all for His sake, he would receive a hundredfold in this world. When we began our walk with the Lord, we forsook all, not expecting anything in this life, other than to do His work without charge wherever He took us.
As it turned out, without seeking anything, in the fourteenth year, He gave us a wonderful home, then three and a half years later, a wonderful son (when my wife was not supposed to be able to have children), and four years later, a wonderful agricultural property (now organic and commercial) for the succor of many. He has greatly blessed us. We didn’t ask man or even God for these things.
Long ago, the Lord taught me that I should ask nothing of any man, but that if ever I needed anything, I should make my requests known to Him only. I learned that lesson from Him in 1973 after two failures and never looked back. We have been blessed and have prospered in every way, even as He promised.
Am I suggesting that all those who are His are given abundant physical possessions? The answer is, of course, “No.” Many have been His faithful servants who have had little of this world’s goods (Hebrews 11), but they were greatly and no less blessed nonetheless.
Do your leaders teach that you cannot be involved in any Christian events or ministries outside of your local church?
My answer to this question is, “No,” insofar as “any” events are concerned, but a definite “Yes” to some. I know the Lord’s answer would likely be, “No,” to your question but with definite qualification, as mine.
The question here is the definition of “Christian.” There is more than enough out there in the name of Christianity that makes Satan quite pleased. Shall I not tell my sheep that they cannot be involved in at least some of the “Christian events” and “ministries”? I shall, and make no apology for it. In essence, if not in application, are you not trying to do this very thing yourself?
And if a shepherd thinks it his duty to let his sheep roam in dangerous places among wolves, I say that shepherd is not doing his job as His Head would have him to do it. God does not provide ministries for His Church to let the sheep do as they please.
Your problem is that you have been burned by wolves, your father being the primary one. This has caused you to toss out the baby you might be searching for. Or would you prefer to be the rebel who will retain his independence to the bitter end?
How would the Lord and His disciples have answered your question?
“Now we command you, brothers, in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother who walks disorderly, and not after the teaching which he received from us” (2 Thessalonians 3:6 MKJV).
“Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty” (2 Corinthians 6:17-18 MKJV).
“Concerning the works of men, by the word of Your lips I have kept me from the paths of the destroyer” (Psalms 17:4).
“And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues. For her sins joined together, even up to Heaven, and God has remembered her unjust deeds” (Revelation 18:4-5 MKJV).
Don’t you wish you could have had a faithful shepherd in your youth who would have told you that you cannot be involved in any Christian events or ministries outside of your local church and perhaps especially inside your local church?
Would you not consider that others could have been spared your torment because their shepherds faithfully, wisely warned them about Watt and your father, the adulterous “man of God”?
“Beware of false prophets,” warned Jesus. Should not His appointed shepherds warn their flocks of specific wolves, if they know who they are? They should and they do!
You likely speak of a blanket rule of leaders to their flock to have nothing to do with any other group. But there may be a good place for that, might there not? How about Lot in Sodom? What church gathering did he have? Would it have been wise of him to instruct his daughters and son-in-laws to stay out of other “churches” there? I think so. Some obeyed, and some decided to eat poisonous weeds and got burned with the multitude.
What about Noah? Should he have said to his family and flock, “We won’t tell you to abstain from other ministries and events. You are free agents under God.” How foolish would that have been of him?
Again, Scott, the issue is not in the act itself, which you unwisely set yourself up to judge after the appearance, by your man-made laws, rather than judging righteous judgment, according to truth, revelation, motivation, and direction by the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Have you signed anything saying you will tithe to the church, obey its leaders, and never criticize the church?
Both I and the Lord (and His disciples), I am persuaded, would answer, “No.” However, is it not a given that disciples should obey their leaders?
“Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you” (Hebrews 13:17 MKJV).
As to “criticizing the church,” what do you mean? The true “church” includes everyone there, both leaders and followers. Why should anyone criticize the church, unless they are righteously reproving and admonishing? Yet, even there, each member has his or her place. For example, while an elder may rebuke a member, shall a member be free to rebuke an elder?
“Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren” (1 Timothy 5:1 KJV).
Can you pay money and become part of your leader’s network?
We both answer, “No.”
Do your leaders think highly of Peter Wagner’s book ‘Church Quake’?
I have never heard of it, and who cares? The answer would of necessity be, “No.”
Have you been taught that God speaks only to your leader, and you only hear from God via your leader?
My answer is, “No.” The Lord’s disciples would answer, “No.”
Have you been ordered not to read ‘negative’ information about your church; information like what Cultwatch.com provides?
My answer is, “No.” The Lord’s disciples in His day in the flesh would likely have replied, “No,” but not necessarily:
“Finally, my brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are right, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue and if there is any praise, think on these things” (Philippians 4:8 MKJV).
If your church is God’s Church and your pastor a faithful servant of God, why should the pastor not instruct his sheep to ignore negative criticism of their fellowship? Why should they soil their minds with Satan’s arguments and reasonings? Why, with the understanding and discernment I have of this “Detector,” would I not teach those committed by God to my care that you are in error (as if they didn’t already know)?
Still, in our case, we publish our conflicts with others as teaching opportunities (you can be fairly certain that our gathering will be reading all of this, not fearing “negative influences”). Unlike the practice of others, we let all with us read the enemies’ attacks and various correspondences that come our way – along with our replies to them, of course. This way they learn good and evil, truth and error.
On the other hand, groups called churches and Christian organizations, like, for instances, the ABC, Mormons, and JW’s, will instruct their people to have nothing to do with anything other than their own literature, which would not be a good thing at all.
But who are you, Scott, to judge right from wrong? Plainly, your knowledge, information, and criteria of judgment are faulty, are they not? Or will you argue this?
Have you heard the term ‘Church Government’ mentioned?
Is there a problem with “Church government”? You seem to think so. Would you prefer mayhem, chaos, disorderliness, anarchy, independence, and free-for-all?
The Bible overflows with “Church government” from Genesis to Revelation.
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints” (1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV).
Some examples to scratch the surface:
“And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages” (1 Corinthians 12:28 MKJV).
1 Corinthians 14:31-40 KJV
(31) For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
(32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
(33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law.
(35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
(36) What? came the Word of God out from you? or came It unto you only?
(37) If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
(38) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
(39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(40) Let all things be done decently and in order.
What about the examples of Moses, Samuel, and Elijah?
The royal orders – David, Solomon, and others.
The Levitical priesthood.
The Melchizedek priesthood (Abraham submitted to Melchizedek).
“And we have confidence in the Lord regarding you, that you both do and will do the things which we command you” (2 Thessalonians 3:4 MKJV).
“Command and teach these things” (1 Timothy 4:11 MKJV).
1 Timothy 5:1-25.
“Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you” (Hebrews 13:17 MKJV).
“For this cause I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed you” (Titus 1:5 MKJV).
“So that, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. But if anyone hungers, let him eat at home, so that you do not come together to condemnation. And the rest I will set in order when I come” (1 Corinthians 11:33-34 MKJV).
“And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matthew 19:28 MKJV).
Your problem is that you have tasted evil authority, have been burned, and now out goes the baby with the bathwater, even as you say.
Have your leaders told you that the church is a ‘theocracy, not a democracy’?
Did James and the elders in Jerusalem conduct a “democracy” (Acts 15)?
Did Jesus give His disciples a vote on any matter, much less important ones?
Did Paul instruct Timothy and Titus to gather the people and elect elders and deacons, or did he instruct them to appoint them by their authority in Christ?
Did Moses give the people a vote? Will not sheep make a beeline for Egypt at the first opportunity when things get tough? Was Israel a democracy, or was it supposed to be a theocracy?
Is the Kingdom of God a democracy? You seem to harbor the notion that democracy is virtuous and theocracy a travesty.
When will you learn that water, fire, and electricity are evil when used to abuse, but wonderful instruments for good when in wise use? In your bitterness, you banish these three because you were drowned, burned, and electrocuted.
My answer to your question is, “Yes,” and plainly, the Lord and His disciples would answer, “Yes.” But that will never do for a man who has been burned by despots, will it?
Unless he lets God heal him, Scott, unless he lets God heal him.
Are you expected to wear the latest fashionable clothes to church, and do other things to make the church appear affluent?
I say, “No,” and the Lord and His disciples say, “No.”
Do you hear little Scripture in your leaders sermons?
I say, “No,” and the Lord and His disciples would say, “No.” They hear much Scripture.
However, do you not think that one hears “much Scripture” in a JW “kingdom hall” sermon? The Jehovah’s Witnesses are rather knowledgeable in the Scriptures, as are Seventh Day Adventists, and proud of it, as were the Pharisees, and as are others. Does that make them right?
Have you been told you are not allowed to criticize your leader?
I have seen leaders who should be honored by their followers, and rightly so, and I have seen leaders who demanded honor but should have been shot instead. Should the righteous be criticized? Should the presumptuous usurpers of God’s authority not be criticized? Should they not be abandoned?
“Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren” (1 Timothy 5:1 KJV).
“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine” (1 Timothy 5:17 KJV).
Of course, your elders did not rule well at all, did they?
So one could answer your question with a “Yes” and be right, or with a “No” and be right, or wrong in either case. But you judge all circumstances and peoples by your evil experiences. Is that not so, Scott? Is it right and good that you should do so and lead the simple and unlearned astray? By your judgments, if people were to believe you, we would hear many babies crying in the mud.
Has anyone told you that if you disobey your leaders then you will no longer be under their ‘Umbrella of Divine Protection’?
Did not the sons of Korah disobey Moses? How was their divine protection thereafter?
Did not Shimei disobey Solomon? How was his subsequent divine protection?
Did not Demetrius the silversmith and Alexander the coppersmith disobey? Did they continue under divine protection when cast out?
Did not the Lord teach that if any did not obey the truth after several attempts of persuasion to count them as a heathen? Would those continue under divine protection?
Matthew 18:15-17 MKJV
(15) But if your brother shall trespass against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
(16) But if he will not hear you, take one or two more with you, so that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
(17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he neglects to hear the church, let him be to you as a heathen and a tax-collector.
Paul wrote to Titus:
“After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy” (Titus 3:10 MKJV).
So while you only dwell on unrighteous situations with these questions, as if to assume there is no call for any spiritual leader to declare God’s disapproval of disobeying His anointed ones, there are righteous examples that fall under your condemnation, are there not?
To the question, I reply, “Yes,” the Lord would say, “Yes,” and His disciples would give a resounding “Yes,” provided the leaders are righteous and God-appointed. Yours weren’t and still aren’t, and you are not leading anyone in the paths of righteousness. Instead, you grind an axe on the heads of all those you presume to teach in your bitterness.
Yes, there are many charlatans out there and some, if not many, of your questions could and would apply to them, but you fail to rightly divide and wisely direct.
Has anyone told you that terrible things will happen to you if you leave?
If you speak of threats, my answer is, “No,” and of course, the Lord’s answer is, “No,” as well. However, if one departs from the faith (assuming the faith of the group is true), how can it go well for him or her? So though your question does not seem to cover all bases, is it not true that “terrible things will happen” to those who leave? Is that not what the Scriptures teach?
Hebrews 6:4-8 MKJV
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
(5) and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
(6) and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.
(7) (For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it, and brings forth plants fit for those by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God.
(8) But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected and is a curse, whose end is to be burned.)
2 Peter 2:20-22 MKJV
(20) For if they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the full knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are again entangled, they have been overcome by these, their last things are worse than the first.
(21) For it would have been better for them not to have fully known the way of righteousness, than fully knowing it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(22) But the word of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog turning to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to wallowing in the mire.
Like it or not, I have seen these things happen, and they are not pretty. The people were not threatened, but they were warned to believe and obey God, and still they decided to depart from the faith, choosing the world. It is not pretty.
For one example, a lady chose to disobey God and within four years, died of cancer. We did not threaten her; we tried to help, but she rebelled. In another case, a fellow chose his friends and pleasures over God. And that which he chose instead of God, he soon lost. He ended up friendless; spiritually, he reeked of death and desolation and does so to this day, over 30 years later.
So what of your question, Scott? Abraham said to God, while talking to Him about the destruction of Sodom, where his nephew Lot dwelt:
“Far be it from You to act in this manner, to kill the righteous with the wicked. And far be it from You, that the righteous should be as the wicked. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25 MKJV)
How about you, Scott?
Have you been told that if you disobey, or leave, you will lose God’s blessing in your life?
I think this question has been answered in the previous one, don’t you? The sum of it is that if they disobey charlatans, they will lose nothing of God’s blessing; instead, they will gain it – if they leave for His and for righteousness’ sake. But if they depart from the faith of the saints, in which they may have been blessed up until that time, shunning the servants of the Lord and, of course, the Lord, too (He is the One they are truly leaving), how can they not lose His blessing in their lives?
Yet if the respondent answers this question in the affirmative, you warn him or her to flee. Are you right, Scott? You seem to think all spiritual authority is bad; but is it? Or is it that the abuse of it is bad?
Now what is the conclusion of this matter? After answering what the Lord and His disciples would be compelled to answer, according to my knowledge and understanding of Him and of the Scriptures, here are the results:
Off the scale! Super Apostle mind control methods detected. You are in a Super Apostle church. Strongly recommend you read all Super Apostle articles on this site. Leaving is your best option.
I am reminded of the Kingdom of Heaven likened to a fishnet taking in both good and bad fishes. The good are kept, and the bad are tossed. With your fishnet, are not all the good tossed, and the bad saved? That is assuming you judge wishy-washy churches full of iniquity (lawlessness) to be proper in the sight of God.
“In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes” (Judges 17:6 KJV).
Had all potential followers of Christ taken this “Super Apostle” quiz and your advice, it is certain the Lord would not have had one disciple – not one, except for maybe Judas. There would be no Christ, no salvation, and no hope.
You are transferring your pain to others, Scott, by painting everyone, including the Lord Jesus Christ, with a very broad and dirty brush. The color is red, and the red is your blood. We can be thankful that God does not permit those who diligently seek Him to be confounded and led astray by counsel born of grief, bitterness, and defeat.
By coming to us, you have found the baby you were not to throw out with the bathwater. This “Detector” and our response to it have been all about the missing baby, have they not? Repent of your bitterness and sins, and Lord willing, He will have mercy on you, and you will see things very differently.
By the way, if your expulsion from your church was as simple as you related it, and your offense for which you were expelled nothing more than what you say it was, we find no fault with your assessment of the Lord’s doings at age 12. We have used the terms “unobedience” (no sin) as opposed to “disobedience” (sin) to differentiate between innocent and guilty lack of obedience. You were right – Jesus needed to learn obedience, as the Scriptures declare, He having taken upon Himself the form of a man in all aspects, being tempted in all points as we are, but His shortfall of obedience does not mean that He sinned.
Victor Hafichuk
Victor and Paul also sent:
Scott, there is a tried and true measure or determination of cults available on our site, failsafe because it is based on the Lord’s teachings and example by His life and the lives and teachings of His apostles.
We thought it could be of great interest and help to you: The True Marks of a Cult.
Nothing less than the Lord’s standard will do:
“A perfect and just weight shall you have; a perfect and just measure shall you have: that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you” (Deuteronomy 25:15 HNV).
When men measure the things of God according to their own weights, however, as you have with this “Super Apostle Detector,” things are fouled because the source is corrupt:
“A double standard of weights is disgusting to the LORD, and dishonest scales are no good” (Proverbs 20:23 GW).
Victor