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At the time of our main conversation with Harold Green, the following conversation also took place:
Victor asks Harold:
Harold, how do you propose to be saved while you continue to sin? Why would Jesus require you to not sin unless He gave you grace to not sin? How do you “go and sin no more” without grace regardless of whether you do it to be saved or simply to obey God?
“Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, Behold, you are made whole. Sin no more lest a worse thing come to you” (John 5:14 MKJV).
You say it is impossible for believers to stop sinning, but what do the Scriptures say?
“He who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the devil. Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:8-9 MKJV).
As for Peter and Paul sinning, you continue as the false accuser you are. Where is there a record of their having sinned after being saved? If you refer to Peter’s denial of the Lord, Peter was not yet converted. If you refer to Peter’s error, for which Paul reproved him, as Paul recorded to the Galatians, you have no right to call Peter’s temporary error or confusion “sin”. You are imposing your definitions and carnal concepts, which is what the accuser of the brethren is all about. Had Peter not heeded Paul’s reproof, then it would have turned to sin, but Peter received correction as one born again from above would. You do not receive correction because you are born again from beneath; you have a spurious conversion (it has the telltale characteristics of a demonic experience).
In the apostle Paul’s case, if you refer to the conflict between Paul and Barnabas, again, you have no substance to call his stance “sin”. There is error, infirmity, weakness, and fault, but none of those are necessarily willful sin.
If you refer to Paul speaking of himself as the chiefest of sinners, he was speaking not of sinning, but of being a sinner, in his flesh, which we all are. He said, “I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing.” He was not speaking of himself in Christ. And he was not speaking of continuing in the flesh and sinning.
Your assertion is that believers can serve the law of sin with their minds, which is untrue. With the flesh they serve the law of sin, but with their minds they serve the Law of God:
“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin” (Romans 7:25 MKJV).
And John testifies that born again believers cannot serve the law of sin with their minds, as quoted above.
To the Romans Paul also wrote:
“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Romans 8:1 MKJV).
To walk according to the flesh, which is what you do by your carnal religious thoughts and ways, would be sinning. Paul had repented of that by a new nature granted him. Romans 7 was his description of the process through which all saints go when advancing and developing into the Christ life through grace, coming to the victory state of Romans 8. You have never known these things – I speak to a hard, unregenerate heart that opposes and withstands these things of God. We see and know that because God shows it to us:
“But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:15-16 MKJV).
But you, Harold, have never seen these things or known freedom by God’s righteousness, and here is why:
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14 MKJV).
You are still in the natural, and not the spiritual. That is why you do not hear or understand us.
Victor
Harold’s reply:
This is very simple Victor,
The facts are against this notion of yours that christians are in some state of sinnless perfection. This is easily refuted by the fact that a Christian still has a sin nature within him. That sin nature did not leave when Christ saved him. (James 4) Tells of the war that is in our members –the sin nature! While Christians enjoy the “NEW MAN” within, the “Flesh” still reigns in the body and is in constant warfare with the spirit.
1. We are commanded to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. Why? The flesh is that sin nature we carry with us and will not be removed until after our full redemption takes place at Christ coming. (1 Corinthians 15). This mortal will only then”put on immortality.
2. If we are completely sinless we would not die. The fact is that physical death STILL occurs even among the saved. “The wages of sin is death” (Romans 3:23).
There is a date Victor in which you will die physically as with me unless Jesus Christ comes back first.
3. The 2 books written to the Corinthian church testifies of gross sin within the body of Christ’s members. People are in different stages of “sanctification” as Christians. “If any of you are over taken in a fault…”
More later—
Victor’s reply:
We have never had a notion that the flesh is without sin and have never preached otherwise. You do not hear our words. What are we dealing with here? Identify yourself, in the Name of Jesus Christ. Again, the plain statement we made in our letter to you:
“If you refer to Paul speaking of himself as the chiefest of sinners, he was speaking not of sinning, but of being a sinner, in his flesh, which we all are. He said, ‘I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing.’ He was not speaking of himself in Christ. And he was not speaking of continuing in the flesh and sinning.”
You say, “We are commanded to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh.” How do we do that without grace? Or are you suggesting works? Are we not to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”? Is that works?
Physical death has nothing to do with the inner man, the new creature in Christ that has eternal life. While the carnal one dies, the spiritual does not:
“And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:26 MKJV).
Otherwise, we could not have eternal life, which is granted, by grace, the moment one is born again. You err, not knowing the grace of the inner man, the new creature, whereby old things are passed away and all things are made new.
Yes, the Corinthians, Galatians, and others were in the flesh, and Paul rebuked them for it because it was not necessary that they should walk in the flesh. It was, however, necessary that they should walk in the Spirit and NOT SIN. If it was not necessary or possible for them to walk in the Spirit, Paul would not have been so foolish and unreasonable as to exhort and even command them to do so:
“For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14 MKJV).
Is this not so, Harold? But you have never known the grace of God or His salvation, have you?
Victor
Harold’s response:
Victor,
Saved people do sin. Again here is the verse that states this which I gave to Paul:
“If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. (I John 1:8) (John was writing to believers)
Let’s not make *excuses* for sin which you call “error” in the lives of believers. The word sin means literally to “miss the mark”. If you err from the truth it is sin. The definition of error is “To be in a state of being WRONG”.
Peter was NOT “confused”, as Paul said that Peter was “to be blamed” for the prejudice. Galatians 2:11. Your contention is simply fraudulent, and not founded in what the Bible actually says. There are scores of rebukes and admonishments to “believers” throughout the New Testament NOT TO SIN or avoid certain sinful practices. Logic alone would teach you that the capacity for a Christian to sin and the act of sin DOES occur among believers by the very command NOT TO SIN! The command not to do it proves Christians can sin. The Bible plainly teaches that Christians do sin.
I John 2:1 -“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:”
Again, the possibility and certainty of a Christian sinning is plainly THERE. Victor, being in denial does not change what God has said!
As for 1 John 3:9, John has ALREADY stated that Christians have the capacity to sin and do at times:
“If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. (1 John 1:8)
The verbal phrase “commit sin” in 1 John 3:9 is in the linear mode which speaks of a continuous act. What John is saying is that sin will not be a habitual thing or a ‘regular practice’ in the life of the Christian. In the second half of the verse shows the verb “sin” as in the linear mode which shows once again that sin is not a habit or ritual thing in the believer’s life. The reason is the “NEW MAN”; the new nature that is “born” in the spirit convicts the Christian of his sin. A sinning Christian is miserable and will not enjoy being in that state. This is God’s method of discipline and sanctification in the life of a believer. There is no evidence in the Word of God to your claim that Christians DO NOT SIN. This is false teaching and reveals an apparent danger to the promoter of such teaching.
“If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. (1 John 1:8)
“Oh wretched man that I AM”. Paul states in present tense that he was wretched; Not I used to be wretched.
I see what you are trying to say but it does not hold up. We are body, soul and spirit in one person. We may have the “new man” and we are commanded to walk in the Spirit, but the very command to walk in the spirit signifys that some are NOT and are sinning. Any honest saved person would admit to sin, even as much as we don’t like to; we still have the flesh to contend with.
James calls christians adulterers and adultresses, he said that LUST was warring in their members! Not used to. This was a rebuke to Christians.
Repent, Victor and Paul!
Victor’s reply:
Paul the apostle also said that the Kingdom of God was peace and joy and righteousness. How do you put all that together with wretchedness, if his wretchedness was a present description of his state, rather than a description of that portion of the process he was describing in Romans, including chapter 8, which every believer must travel and experience?
Harold’s response:
Victor,
Of course he had peace! HIS HOPE WAS NOT IN HIMSELF, BUT IN JESUS CHRIST!
“For I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11)
It did not matter what present “STATE” Paul found himself in. It was his STANDING with GOD that counts!
“Therefore being Justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1)
Look at this!
Eph 3:8 “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;”
He said plainly: “who am”, present tense. “less than least of all SAINTS”. He did NOT say ‘less than least of all unsaved people’. This is how he viewed himself AS A SAINT.
Repent Victor
Victor answered:
So he wasn’t so wretched after all? And why did he see himself as the least of all the saints?
Harold’s response:
No Victor,
God was merciful to him,
It is called selfless humility, and deep gratitude and LOVE FOR JESUS. –Something every sinner saved by GRACE should have. I comes from realizing you deserve NOTHING BUT WRATH. “Lord be merciful to me a sinner”.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
You aught to try it sometime. I am sorry for you that you cannot feel abased enough at your own worthlessness to feel a deep gratitude and love for salvation. ALL GLORY HONOR AND PRAISE TO JESUS CHRIST!
Repent back to your fist love, Victor
Praying for you–
Victor’s reply:
You say Paul the apostle saw himself as the least of all the saints because God was merciful to him? I thought it was because he had persecuted (past tense) the church unlike any other to that time, which he was no longer doing as a believer:
“For I am the least of the apostles and am not sufficient to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was toward me has not been without fruit, but I labored more abundantly than all of them; yet not I, but the grace of God with me” (1 Corinthians 15:9-10 MKJV).
As for me, I know I deserve nothing but the worst that can be. I have known that for a long time. I also know I am forgiven, called, and a chosen vessel of His, by His appointment and revelation. No need for you to feel sorry for me.
Harold’s reply:
Apostle Paul had God’s mercy–without that he would never be what he finally became, even then Paul admits he had not arrived to the heights which you claim for yourself.
Get off your high horse, Victor–I gave you plenty of God’s Holy Word to refute your foolish notions Christians don’t sin or have “trouble in the flesh” as Apostle Paul has clearly stated. And I condemn deceitful tactics as you and p.cohen do, running off to so-called ‘bibles’ and other “Alexanderian” perversions when it gets too hot to use the KJV. Your pathetic answers shame the Word of God and the God who settled it in Heaven.
I press you again, explain 1 John 2:1-2
Repent Victor
Victor’s reply:
If I am on a high horse, as you put it, why would I confess, “I know I deserve nothing but the worst that can be. I have known that for a long time. I also know I am forgiven, called, and a chosen vessel of His, by His appointment and revelation. No need for you to feel sorry for me.”
You seem to conveniently ignore certain things we say. You accuse us of things we deny, our denials supported with Scripture that agree with certain things you say, yet you keep harping on your one track. How old are you, Harold? Are you senile, or are you simply demon-possessed?
As for “trouble in the flesh, we have told you believers can and do have such, so why do you write us as though we never said that? You are clearly a fool, Harold, a damned fool, and you call on us to repent and to come down from the high horse?
Harold’s response:
Paul’s thorn was given him because he knew he would be lifted up in pride from the “abundance of the revelations”
Paul knew he could fall into PRIDE. Last time I checked this was a sin–hmm
Repent Victor
Victor’s reply:
So you’re saying he had trouble in the flesh before he had trouble in the flesh, in case he should have trouble in the flesh, Harold? So he had sin so that he would not have sin – is that what you’re telling me?
Harold’s reply:
No, that is what the Scriptures say.
Repent Victor
Victor’s reply:
Or is that what you say the Scriptures say? Not knowing the Author of the Scriptures, you cannot tell. You are sure in your confusion but not that sure, are you? No, indeed you are not.
Harold’s reply:
Not knowing the scripture you could not know ANYTHING SPIRITUAL. This is the house of cards that brings down your building. You reject the scripture as final authority in what you believe–but it is ok to borrow information from it, then make it second class to your tongues–what a laugh! HYPOCRITE!
Victor’s reply:
Do you really think these are laughing matters, Harold? My, what kind of spirit is it that is entertained by these things?
Harold’s reply:
I have given you scripture that clearly show the error in your thinking, or is it just plain stubbornness on your part.
There is no use trying to repeat the same mantra and private interpretations of those verses that flatly expose false teaching on your website. I am glad I took Greek in College; there is no other source as rich as the original language (Coine Greek) to bring out what the Holy Spirit has used to write the KJV. You are butchering 1 John 3:9 and have not acknowledge the linear rendering of those verbs which denounce your apostacy. When are you going to address this? YOU HAVEN’T YET! Even some of the corrupted bibles you use have rendered this verse correctly, at least on this scripture, and you still are in denial.
Repent Victor
Victor’s reply:
You have consistently called me that which you are, a liar. So go your way; don’t believe me. Die in your sins.
Harold’s reply:
I can’t die in my in my sins–Jesus Has Paid for them already! GLORY!!!!!!!!!
Repent Victor
Victor’s reply:
He has paid for your sins and one day you will know it through the salvation that is real, not the one you have now. As with an artificial flower (which is not all that well made), so is your presumed reality and “glory.” We see and we know you. Presently, you are a viper.
Harold’s reply:
According to the Gospel Apostle Paul preached and the one Gospel that was specifically written for those who are seeking salvation–the Gospel of John, I am saved. By the witness of the Word and the Spirit of God that bears witness with my spirit, I know Him! PRAISE GOD!!!!
Joh 3:3 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
I am born from above, through faith in His Son.
Joh 3:15-16 “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Joh 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
Here is one of my favorites! :
Joh 5:24 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
You do not receive my testimony because you do not acknowledge HIS WORD. That is why God has sent you a lying spirit; this is part of the judgment upon you! If you will not hear HIS WORD, you are given a lying voice that has led you to reject the true Gospel by faith alone in His Son. YOUR FALSE LYING TONGUES and voices are your god. The record of the TRUE GOSPEL OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST you have set aside; this lying spirit has bewitched you! I perceive the lust for power and position has conjured this lying spirit to you.
This has been a very interesting investigation. How straying from the Word will lead one into delusional fantasies of self-grandeur. Christ Jesus Is LORD–NOT YOU! Victor, shake yourself and GET OUT OF THIS TRAP AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!
Repent Victor!
Victor’s reply:
The devils also believe, and tremble. Satan uses the Word and claims its veracity, as do you.
Are you born from above? No, and we are here to tell the ungodly who thinks himself godly the truth about himself. Your favorite (John 5:24) speaks the truth, but you have never experienced it, no matter what you claim. We know and see, being seated at the White Throne presiding over you, dismissing you to the lake of fire where you must be purged. Then you will know not to require God, or us who are in Him, to acknowledge your word of His Word, which is not His Word at all, except in your imagination.
You will not long condemn us for rejecting your lies, but we righteously judge you for rejecting the truth.
As for lust for power, we have all the power we need or desire because there is no lust for it; we are crucified with Christ and raised with Him, being justified by His blood. We have overcome and are seated with Him on His throne to rule over you with a rod of iron.
That is why I said to you that our site is His throne room, which you can’t receive. We speak from Him Who resides within us; we have been made to sit in Heavenly places, seated on the throne with Him, while you, a pretender to the throne, and all His enemies, are made His footstool.
You must worship at our feet, and you will. Even now, you are compelled, being confounded. We speak by His power and Spirit, and there is nothing you can do about it except spit, fuss, and fume, which you do, and which is of no consequence except to you.
Harold’s reply:
The devils “tremble” because that is their reaction to the reality of God’s coming judgment upon them.
As for you telling the “ungodly the truth” about me you are correct! Your assessment and judgment of me is indeed “ungodly”. After giving clear testimony of the saving power of the blood of Jesus Christ as the atonement for my sin and receiving His complete forgiveness, and confessing Him as the Lord and Savior of my soul, you deny it. The reason is you have added to the Gospel and created another “gospel”. Of course my testimony will not fit “another” gospel that adds human effort (works).
What is the assurance you have for eternal life?; in the face of the testimony of the Apostle John, John the Baptist and Words of the Lord Jesus Himself: John 3:16, John 3:14, John 3:18, John 3:33, John 3:36, John 5:24,
Victor’s reply:
You have no testimony at all, Harold, except one of death. You have the letter of the Scriptures and your presumptuous application of Them. Now to such as you, Jesus spoke:
“You search the Scriptures, for in Them you think you have eternal life. And They are the ones witnessing of Me, and you will not come to Me that you might have life. I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me. If another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, you who receive honor from one another and do not seek the honor that comes from God only?” (John 5:39-44 MKJV)
Harold’s response:
God laughs from heaven at hypocrites that minimise His Word. He has you in derision. Psalm 2:4
False Prophets:
“But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.” Deuteronomy 18:20-22, KJV
“For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.” Jeremiah 29:9, KJV
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” Matthew 7:15-20, KJV
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;” 2 Timothy 4:3, KJV
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” 2 Peter 2:1, KJV
Swiftly it cometh, Victor,
REPENT!
Victor’s note to Paul:
I expected Harold would come up with Psalm 2:4, so I used the word “entertained,” but of course, it is lost on him. Well, we will soon see the truth of the matter, Paul. If I am a false prophet, surely let the Lord destroy me. But if I represent Him truly, let Harold be destroyed.