‘People Aren’t Born Sinful’?
Just because you’re right about one thing doesn’t make you right about others or, more importantly, right with God. A man agrees with our conclusions about Calvin being false, but presents a cockeyed doctrine no less false or pernicious than Calvin’s, namely that people aren’t born sinful. “But death reigned from Adam…” (Romans 5:14 MKJV).
Tim Sauder of the “Apostolic Oneness Mennonite-Federation” sent us powerpoint presentations on the falsehood of Calvinism and asked:
Do you agree with what I wrote on Calvinism?
We don’t have the presentations, but here’s a video on the subject from Tim at YouTube. Paul replied:
Hi Tim,
I agree with some of it, but mostly what I see is that you’re no more enlightened in the ways of the Lord than the Calvinists. While Calvin and his followers are wrong, so are you and those you follow (the “church fathers”), who no more knew the Lord Jesus Christ than Calvin did. It doesn’t matter how close they were to the real church fathers in time or physical proximity, one must have a direct spiritual connection with the Vine, or he isn’t a productive branch.
One can’t get any closer than Judas, or further away.
You present yourself as a defender of orthodox Christianity, but that which goes by the name has altogether been conceived in corruption and is full of doctrines of devils. See Diabolical Doctrines and The True Marks of a Cult, the latter of which contains more specifics on the “church fathers.”
In one of your presentations, you say the Bible teaches that we were all born connected to God, and that He starts drawing us to Himself from the time we were born. Those two notions, besides being wrong, nullify one another. If we start out connected to God, where is the necessity for being drawn to Him? When I was without Christ, I was without God, just as Paul describes:
“And that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ” (Ephesians 2:12-13 MKJV).
I only became connected when I was “made near” in Christ. Before that I was without hope or God. How can you call that being connected? Yes, all live by His breath and whatever light we have comes from Him, but that doesn’t change the fact that all are as described by the Scriptures Paul quotes in Romans 3:
Romans 3:10-18 MKJV
(10) As it is written: “There is none righteous, no not one;
(11) there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
(12) They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one.
(13) Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips;
(14) whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;
(15) their feet are swift to shed blood;
(16) destruction and misery are in their way,
(17) and the way of peace they did not know.
(18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
How can we walk with God when living in enmity with Him? How can two walk together if they are not agreed? But Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, living in enmity with God.
Being separated from God, therefore, all people need to be drawn before they can come to Him. And does God start drawing all men to Himself at birth, as you say? Many Scriptures refute this notion. Jesus said that no man could come to Him unless the Father drew him. Therefore all are not being drawn to Him all the time.
John said a man could receive nothing except it was given to him from above. Not all have the Son; the Lord decidedly withholds Himself from some in this life, according to what Jesus told His disciples:
Matthew 13:10-15 MKJV
(10) And the disciples said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
(11) He answered and said to them, “Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.
(12) For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance. But whoever does not have, from him shall be taken away even that which he has.
(13) Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
(14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, ‘By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive;
(15) for this people’s heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.’”
There was a very definite time in my life when I was drawn and began to receive from God. Before that time, I had no interest whatsoever and was occupied in other pursuits. So it was for Victor and everyone with us now. So it is for every child of God who is called and chosen of Him.
According to your gospel, God fails in drawing men to Christ and bringing them into repentance, because He is neutralized by their unbelief. He only succeeds in those who choose to believe. In other words, God depends on the righteousness of man – a notion highly unscriptural and unrealistic.
Your world revolves around man, not God. Either man is “sorry out of luck” for his failure to be saved or he receives the glory of his success, both of which deny God’s sovereignty and glory. Yours is the gospel according to Satan, who savors the things of man and feeds the self-righteousness of the flesh rather than directing it to the cross.
Some of the other things you present from the “early church” as truths contrasting Calvinism, are false. For example:
“Sin as an action not constitutional or physical condition.”
There is sin, the action, and there is the sin nature, which produces the action. There would be no action without the innate constitution.
“O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Romans 7:24 MKJV)
“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses” (Colossians 2:13 MKJV).
“You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44 MKJV).
“Yea, you did not hear; yea, you did not know; yea, from the time that your ear was not opened; for I surely know that you will betray and trespass; from the womb it was called to you” (Isaiah 48:8 MKJV).
How about Peterson’s more accessible language?: “You’ve never been good listeners to Me. You have a history of ignoring Me, A sorry track record of fickle attachments– rebels from the womb” (Isaiah 48:8 MSG).
“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies” (Psalms 58:3 KJV).
Another falsehood: “Man has freewill and ability.”
This philosophy, as quoted from a “church father,” is anti-Christ:
“‘But, you say, God ought to have made us at first so that we should not have thought at all of such things. You who say this do not know what is Free-Will, and how it is possible to be really good; That he who is good by his own choice is really good, but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice…’.”
But Jesus said, “No man is good.”
“He Who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6 MKJV).
Read liberally from the selections in Free Will.
Another falsehood: “Predestination as false and pagan concepts.”
Ephesians 1:3-11 MKJV
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ;
(4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
(5) having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
(6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved.
(7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,
(8) which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding;
(9) having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
(10) for an administration of the fullness of times, to head up all things in Christ, both the things in Heaven, and the things on earth, even in Him,
(11) in Whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His own will.
There are the elect of God, chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Read True Hope for Dutch Reform Church Members and All Calvin Doctrine Victims.
Continuing on with a few more false notions you present against Calvinism (which indeed perverts whatever truth it states, being founded on a lie):
God did place the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden, and the tempter, as well, to tempt man. Man had to fall, according to the wisdom of God. Read The Purpose of Evil.
No, we aren’t saying God tempts men to do evil. The Lord of all, by Whom all things consist, isn’t evil and doesn’t tempt men with evil. The corruption comes from within man, which is why we need the Savior. You need to receive His mind and a new heart to begin to learn of Him and to know His ways:
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9 MKJV).
Another correction: Grace is “God’s unmerited favor,” which is “given without anything we do.” And by His grace we fulfill the Law. Read Law and Grace and Grace – The Reality.
You also say:
“Spiritual darkness is a mater of personal choice. Jesus said; Jh.3:3 ‘ …unless one is born again, he can not SEE the kingdom of God.’ Seeing is a mater of spiritual perception. Are you born again?”
What person chose to be born?
Even the Scripture you quote as a proof text refutes that the choice is man’s (my emphasis added):
“Mt.15:13 ‘Every plant which My Heavenly Father did not plant shall be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind.’”
Your frequent exclamations of “Duhhhhhhhhhh!!!!” are part of the same carnal mindset that exalts man’s goodness and presents salvation as something he accomplishes by the strength of his will and intellect. That’s the pride of life at work, a characteristic of the man of sin, not of the new man in Christ.
Finally, you say to the audience:
“Stop trying to do it your way and do what Jesus commands us.”
Advice you need to hear and heed yourself, Tim. The question is: What does Jesus command? In addition to the links I have given you so far, read Obedience.
I see fleshly depictions of Christ in your presentations. Those are against His Commandment. Read Religious Images, Icons, and Likenesses.
The issue here isn’t John Calvin or Calvinism. It’s you, the one breaking God’s commandments, believing and teaching lies in the Name of Christ. I am responding with the truth, by His grace, so that someday you’ll come to a place of repentance.
Getting people to agree in doctrine without repentance is worthless. The sinner isn’t converted by argument and facts, but by the faith of Christ and obedience to God.
Those who are married to doctrine and denominationalism aren’t married to the Truth, the Lord Jesus Christ. And adherents of men’s doctrines and religions, making such large investments in their own glory, don’t readily renounce their gods for the true God. It takes time to break down man’s pride, particularly when one is rich in himself and his works. But the Word of God we are given to speak will do its work, along with His judgment. We have sure hope in Him, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Tim wrote back:
First of all thanks so much for your kind response which is so detailed. I can see now where you are coming from. I have a video website with teachers beyond me who have done excellent work on Calvinism. Note Moorse work on who are the elect? He wrote a book on it and does an excellent job of showing how wrong the interpretation is by Calvinist and others. My thoughts are not your thoughts is a typical misinterpretation by not reading the two verses before it where Yahweh is talking to the wicked. 1 Cor.1:16 we have the mind of Christ.
I follow a stream called moral government theology the third way. We do not believe in the born sinful doctrine. As a Mennonite anabaptist we have a tradition of not believing in this false doctrine. You can despise the early church fathers if you wish because they don’t agree with Augustine, Calvin and you. However it seem illogical that those who knew the apostles would teach false doctrine. There are answers to your theological questions. If you don’t find them on my website I will give them to you in a response since you were so kind to give me yours.
Victor answered two years later:
Hi Tim,
Going through my files, I pulled up this correspondence with you.
Has anything changed with you and/or your doctrinal beliefs since our correspondence nearly two years ago? Did you really read our response to you (included here)? It seemed you hadn’t. We’ve meant to reply but it wasn’t the Lord’s will for the time.
Just one point to bring up from your reply. You wrote: “You can despise the early church fathers if you wish because they don’t agree with Augustine, Calvin and you. However it seem illogical that those who knew the apostles would teach false doctrine.”
As Paul wrote you, Judas couldn’t get any closer or any further from the Lord. It may seem illogical to you that those knowing the apostles would teach false doctrine. However, one didn’t just teach false doctrine, he betrayed the Lord. Furthermore, the apostle Paul wrote the flock, saying:
“For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them” (Acts 20:29-30 MKJV).
How, then, is it illogical that such should happen? It’s illogical according to the carnal mind that reasons with earthly wisdom as Isaiah 55:8-9 says. The Scriptures of God declare not man’s logic, but the reality of things.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9 MKJV).
The Lord told Moses what would happen after he was taken from the Israelites:
“And the LORD said to Moses, ‘Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers. And this people shall rise up and go lusting after the gods of the strangers of the land into which they are going, into their midst. And they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I made with them’” (Deuteronomy 31:16 MKJV).
Isn’t it thought provoking at all to you how every man on record sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20), including the fathers of the faith, one way or another, even the “man after God’s heart,” David, yet you say none are born in sin?
Victor
Tim answered:
Judas was hand picked to fail. He was the only one not Galilean which made him ripe for racism. He had a demon and did not want to get rid of it. Jh.6:70
I hold to my beliefs as they have not been proven wrong. Thanks for answering though. I get over 6000 views a month on my youtube channel. I must be making something work to get that.
Paul replied:
Tim, your theory on Judas being the only non-Galilean is foolish carnal speculation. It is wickedness with no Scriptural substantiation. Judas was a devil from the beginning, something not said of the other eleven, and it had nothing to do with where Judas was from:
“Jesus answered them, ‘Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil?’ But he spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon; for it was he who was about to betray Him, being one of the Twelve” (John 6:70-71 MKJV).
Contrary to your boast, your beliefs are manifestly false, as anyone whose eyes are opened to the truth in the Scriptures will see, even a newborn in the faith.
The fact that you think having 6,000 monthly views on YouTube means you’re right is proof of your satanic thinking. Of course the one who savors the things of man can attract many! How do you think the Catholic Church and other blasphemous organizations garner such great numbers?
Porn sites also get many hits a month. By your standards, they are also “making something work.” But your whoredom is much greater than the pornographers’, coming deceitfully as the truth from God and not as something most people know is wrong. God’s wrath is on you and your works, Tim.
Also the fact that you don’t answer any of Victor’s questions, particularly the one at the end of his letter, demonstrates how your doctrines are indefensible. The naked emperor who thinks he is majestically robed has been openly exposed as a sunburnt nudist.
Addendum:
As of today, November 18, 2014, I checked the numbers on Tim’s YouTube posting of the video linked at the beginning of this page. After 45 months online, it has 843 views, or about 19 views per month. A far cry from 6,000. As pointed out in my letter, volume in itself means nothing, but how about truthfulness? Tim rightfully calls John Calvin a murderer, but does Tim realize that a liar is also a murderer, of kindred spirit and sin?
“You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it” (John 8:44 MKJV).
Correction: It’s been pointed out to me by one of our astute readers that Tim was talking about his YouTube channel, not a personal video teaching his beliefs. My bad. Now educated on what a YouTube “channel” is, I see it’s composed of whatever videos a person posts on any subject and from any source.
Looking at Tim’s channel, I see that the videos getting the lion’s share of views are coming from other people and are about general subjects, such as Islam, and aren’t about the way of salvation in Christ. If we remove those from the mix, Tim’s videos average nowhere near close to his claim of 6,000 views per month (it’s more like 350).