What is this dispute about? Are we fighting over words? No, it’s much more than that. This is about the truth, not a remote and ethereal concept, but the living embodiment of Truth, the Lord Jesus Christ, and what He is presenting here and now about how to enter Life. The particular circumstances of this confrontation with John Clark, Sr.’s group (www.PastorJohnsHouse.com) are the backdrop in which Truth appears, reality confronting unreality, which is something theory and doctrine cannot do.
Here a cult leader and his cult are exposed. Though the world is full of cults and cult leaders, not often are they confronted publicly and personally exposed. And this has everything to do with you. Whether you are in a cult or not, you are certainly influenced and subject to the ubiquitous presence and power of cults, whether you know it or not. If you are not convinced of the scope of this issue, or want to know more about it, read The True Marks of a Cult.
Topics that are touched on and included in these letters: When and how one is saved, receiving the Spirit of God and what happens during and following that, the promise and fulfillment of entering into the rest of God, being delivered from the whore – Mystery Babylon, righteous judgment, the works of men, false accusations versus the Word of Truth, the antiChrist spirit at work, the ways of hypocrisy, chastening that brings life, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and more.
Cast of Characters in Order of Appearance:
John Clark, Sr. – Cult leader of “Pastor John’s House,” a group promoting itself as “non-Christian” believers in Christ, preaching the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with “the evidence of speaking in tongues.”
Victor and Paul – Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and authors of The Issues of Life.
Carol Browne – Believer having contact with Clark group and Victor and Paul at the same time in her search for the truth.
Jackie Byrnes – Clark group onlooker posing a question.
Gary Savelli – John Clark’s right hand man handling internet communications.
The correspondences are divided into three parts.
PART I
John Clark, Sr. contacts us after receiving an introductory letter to The Issues of Life. An appearance of civility is belied by accusations couched behind misguided thinking and false flattery. A correspondence between John, Victor, and Paul ensues. This entire series of correspondences was sent out to John Clark, Sr.’s group, including subsequent parts 2 and 3.
John’s reply to the introduction letter:
Dear Sir:
Thank you for sending me your letter. It is exciting to hear from brothers and sisters that we do not yet have the pleasure of knowing personally. I will respond with this, and hopefully you will feel disposed to respond. In the above letter giving some detail of your background, Brother Victor wrote:
“Jesus Christ saved me from my sins and from the destroyer. I was delivered from death to life. In 1974, He gave me a wife. A month later, in 1975, my wife and I received the Spirit of God, whereby He began to deal with the sin nature, and to prepare me to serve Him.”
The doctrine that one is “saved from sin” and “delivered from death to life” prior to receiving the Spirit of God is the original foundation of Babylon, the church. As long as you cling to that doctrine upon which the Whore has always built her version of faith, you remain within her walls, even if you believe you have come out.
The holy Ghost baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues is the new birth. The experiences we receive in Christ before that experience may be truly wonderful, but none of them is the birth. It is the confession of that simple and despised truth that is the first step in the process of truly “coming out of her”. I believe that Jesus touched you, as he has touched many of us. But in order for us ever to be made one as he and the Father are one, we must not only “come out of her”, we must also allow God to take the “her” out of us. And the main way He does that is by removing, one by one, the wrong ideas about our heavenly Father that we have taken in.
Please consider what I have told you and respond if you feel led to do so. Respectfully, I am
Your non-Christian servant in Christ Jesus the Lord
Pastor John Clark, Sr.
Visit our website at www.PastorJohnsHouse.com
PS I value and respect both your zeal for the Lord and your courage to speak openly what you believe to be from Jesus. But I caution you, brothers, that for the level of the knowledge of God that you possess, your words are too threatening and too confident.
Victor’s reply:
John, with gladness, I will respond to your letter. I want you to know that you stand in error, not only in your interpretation of the statement you quote, but in your thinking and teaching. I will explain.
I disagree that salvation is not experienced prior to receiving the Spirit of God. Was not Zacchaeus forgiven and delivered from the power of his sins? The record declares:
“And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, Behold, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor. And in anything I accused anyone falsely, I restore it fourfold” (Luke 19:8).
If Zacchaeus had not experienced salvation, how could Jesus have said, before the Spirit was yet given, of Zacchaeus:
“This day salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:9-10)?
If death still reigned in his house, for what purpose and in what way did salvation come to his house? What good is salvation to Zacchaeus without life?
You err in assuming that I believe the new birth to occur before receiving the Spirit. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is the new birth. Read The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Our Testimonies (my part).
On the other hand, I acknowledge that I could have chosen better words. I say so because one must endure unto the end if one is to be fully saved, though his salvation begins, as did that of Zacchaeus and of the disciples, before the crucifixion. How could they have been sent out to preach repentance and the kingdom, or to receive revelation of Christ, as Peter did, or to have the power of the Spirit to heal and perform miracles, if they had not experienced a measure or stage of salvation through faith and repentance? Though the Spirit had not yet been given, John the Baptist preached repentance, having the singular, historical privilege of introducing the Lord to the people. “Faith was accounted for righteousness” to them and to all those who believed with and before them, as with Abraham and Sarah.
Yet, if you read The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, you will find that I appear to contradict myself because in that writing, I say that one is not saved in repentance alone, but must go on to receive the Spirit, as it was written of Cornelius and his household. Nor is the spiritual pilgrim in Christ permitted to remain content there either. As the Hebrews writer declares by the Spirit, one must go on to enter rest. He was speaking of those who had received the Spirit, warning it was necessary for them to go on and finish the course. We have entered into rest, John, and from there do we speak.
I disagree with you that unless one has spoken in tongues, that one is not born again/baptized in the Holy Spirit. Again, in the recommended writing:
“2) Gifts will be manifest, as recorded in I Cor. 12. These gifts must be judged by others (elders) as to whether they are of God or are counterfeit or emotional, imaginary things.
A point: There are those who teach that the gift of tongues is THE sign of having received the Spirit of God. Not so. While tongues are recorded as being manifest at Pentecost for the 120, with Cornelius and his household when they received the Spirit, and with the Ephesian disciples in Acts 19, tongues are not recorded for the 3000 in Acts 2, nor with Saul (Paul) when he received the Spirit by Ananias, nor with the Samaritans in Acts 8 when they believed by Philip and received the Spirit by Peter and John.
Furthermore, not only tongues were mentioned with the Ephesians in Acts 19 but also prophesyings. Also, when Pentecost occurred, Peter bore witness to the event as having been prophesied of by Joel, and while Joel mentioned dreams, visions and prophecy (all gifts of the Spirit and tokens of the outpouring of the Spirit), he mentioned not a word about tongues. If tongues were THE sign of the outpouring of the Spirit of God, one might think Joel would have borne witness as strongly as those who are in error on this matter.
But I do not say that a believer will never speak in tongues. Sooner or later, all those baptized with the Holy Spirit will pray or speak in tongues and so will all the other gifts be manifest as the Spirit wills from time to time. Finally, Paul says that the gift of tongues is the least of all the gifts. If so, why would God choose tongues as the “seal of authenticity” and not another more important gift?”
John, I also disagree on another point. You write:
“we must also allow God to take the “her” out of us. And the main way He does that is by removing, one by one, the wrong ideas about our heavenly Father that we have taken in.”
You are right in that God does the work. However, while the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin, and the truth rids us of falsehood, making us free, the Bible tells us how the harlot comes to an end, and that is at the hands of the beast she rides, in whose heart God has put it to destroy her:
“And he says to me, The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues, and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God gave into their hearts to do His mind, and to act with one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast until the Words of God will be fulfilled” (Revelation 17:15-17).
Therefore, it is not as you say, “by removing, one by one, the wrong ideas about our heavenly Father that we have taken in.” You give yourself away (not that you should not be open and willing to be exposed) in speaking as you do. You reveal in this and many other ways that she is yet with and in you. We know that she is destroyed by the fires to which the believer is subjected. God used the beast to destroy her in us. It is not a pleasant event and process, but it is the only, effective one. Otherwise God would not do it that way, would He?
You add:
“But I caution you, brothers, that for the level of the knowledge of God that you possess, your words are too threatening and too confident.”
Firstly, I believe I have shown you that you need to reconsider your ability and position to judge our level of knowledge. You have misinterpreted what I was saying, but more importantly, you do not have “the level of the knowledge of God” you think to have yourself.
Secondly, we threaten nobody. If our words seem threatening, they are threatening to those who are not in the light. You have no ability to discern spiritually in righteousness, or you would not make that judgment. However, while you are in error saying that our words are “too confident,” it is true that we are confident. John, if our confidence is not in ourselves, but in Him, which it is, we can never be “too confident.” He has done a good work in us, for which we are greatly thankful; you have no idea! Surely He rewards those that are for the truth and who diligently seek after Him, and “daily loads them with benefits.” We know His faithfulness. We can, unlike you (not a jab, but a calling of attention and to repentance) say with the psalmist:
“Concerning the works of men, by the Words of Your lips, I am kept from the paths of the destroyer” (Psalms 17:4).
You are in works of men, John. You need to repent of those. They do indeed destroy. That is why our paths have crossed, that you might be warned. We are here as you need us, Lord willing, ready to serve.
Contending for the faith once delivered to the saints,
Victor
John’s response in italicized font within Victor’s reply:
Victor, this was your testimony:
“Jesus Christ saved me from my sins and from the destroyer. I was delivered from death to life. In 1974, He gave me a wife. A month later, in 1975, my wife and I received the Spirit of God, whereby He began to deal with the sin nature, and to prepare me to serve Him.“
I assumed that by that, you meant that you and your wife were born again a month or so before being baptized with the holy Ghost. And of course, that is unbiblical and untrue. If by Jesus saving you, you simply meant that he touched your heart to turn you from sin, then I can agree and be thankful with you that he did that.
Secondly, the verses you quote concerning Zachaeus never state that he “got saved” or even received salvation. In them , Jesus only states the reason that it was right for him to come to Zachaeus’ house; to wit, that Zachaeus was a descendant of Abraham. When Jesus left Zachaeus’ house, salvation left, too, because Jesus is our salvation, and was the salvation of Israel (Lk. 2:25-30). It sounds as if we can agree that the process of salvation begins before we are baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. One may even argue that the process of an individual’s salvation began before the foundation of the world, when the names of God’s chosen people were written in the Lamb’s book of life (Rev. 13:8; 17:8).
Concerning death still reigning in Zachaeus house, I am reminded of the verse in Romans 5, in which Paul make the astonishing statement that “Death reigned from Adam to Moses”, instead as we would think, “from Adam to Jesus”. So, maybe death was not reigning in Zachaeus house, since he was an Israelite of notable integrity, even before Jesus visited him. At any rate, Zachaeus was not “born again” or “converted” when Jesus came to his house, but he was certainly honored.
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You err in assuming that I believe the new birth to occur before receiving the Spirit. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is the new birth. Read The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Our Testimonies (my part).
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You may have noticed that I DID read your part. That is where I got the quotation mentioned in my last letter and repeated above.
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On the other hand, I acknowledge that I could have chosen better words. I say so because one must endure unto the end if one is to be fully saved, though his salvation begins, as did that of Zacchaeus and of the disciples, before the crucifixion.
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Well, we certainly agree on that.
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How could they have been sent out to preach repentance and the kingdom, or to receive revelation of Christ, as Peter did, or to have the power of the Spirit to heal and perform miracles, if they had not experienced a measure or stage of salvation through faith and repentance?
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They could not have done so without some communication of the grace of God on their lives. So, I can agree with you in principal, even if you do call what happened to them a “stage of salvation” (I hope I understand your meaning).
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Though the Spirit had not yet been given, John the Baptist preached repentance, having the singular, historical privilege of introducing the Lord to the people. “Faith was accounted for righteousness” to them and to all those who believed with and before them, as Abraham and Sarah.
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Amen.
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Yet, if you read The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, you will find that I appear to contradict myself because in that writing, I say that one is not saved in repentance alone, but must go on to receive the Spirit, as it was written of Cornelius and his household. Nor is the spiritual pilgrim in Christ permitted to remain content there either. As the Hebrews writer declares by the Spirit, one must go on to entering rest. He was speaking of those who had received the Spirit, warning it was necessary for them to go on and finish the course. We have entered into rest, John, and from there do we speak.
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You spoke well until the last sentence. You most certainly have not entered into that rest because you have not finished the course. No one still in this life has. That rest is salvation, or glorification with Christ on a new earth “wherein dwelleth righteousness”. To claim to have entered into that rest is the spiritual equivalent to the fundamentalist/evangelical Christian claim that they are already saved. Thinking such thoughts and making such professions puffs people up and gives them a false confidence.
Such false confessions can also cause them to exhibit cruel arrogance toward those who are not so “wise” in comparison to themselves.
I have read the arrogant, sarcastic responses that you and/or your buddy sent to saints of God here who are humble, wise, and good. You should not speak to the children of God so haughtily; in fact, it would be sin even to speak to Satan in such proud and cruel tones.
To such a “reviler” as you are is not godly. You should not do that. Jesus doesn’t.
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I disagree with you that unless one has spoken in tongues, that one is not born again/baptized in the Holy Spirit. Again, in the recommended writing:
“2) Gifts will be manifest, as recorded in I Cor. 12. These gifts must be judged by others (elders) as to whether they are of God or are counterfeit or emotional, imaginary things.
A point: There are those who teach that the gift of tongues is THE sign of having received the Spirit of God. Not so. While tongues are recorded as being manifest at Pentecost for the 120, with Cornelius and his household when they received the Spirit, and with the Ephesian disciples in Acts 19, tongues are not recorded for the 3000 in Acts 2, nor with Saul (Paul) when he received the Spirit by Ananias, nor with the Samaritans in Acts 8 when they believed by Philip and received the Spirit by Peter and John.
Furthermore, not only tongues were mentioned with the Ephesians in Acts 19 but also prophesyings. Also, when Pentecost occurred, Peter bore witness to the event as having been prophesied of by Joel, and while Joel mentioned dreams, visions and prophecy (all gifts of the Spirit and tokens of the outpouring of the Spirit), he mentioned not a word about tongues. If tongues were THE sign of the outpouring of the Spirit of God, one might think Joel would have borne witness as strongly as those who are in error on this matter.
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I have never said that the gift of speaking in tongues is the evidence of being baptized with the holy Ghost. In fact, Paul never says there is such a thing as the “gift of speaking in tongues”. The matter of “stammering lips and other tongues” (Isa. 28), or speaking in tongues, is different from the gift of diverse tongues mentioned in 1Corinthians 12. The experience of “stammering lips and other tongues”, Paul says in 1Corinthians 14, is a “sign to unbelievers”. Isaiah prophesied that it was God’s way of calling to men (Isa. 28), and then he further prophesies that men will not recognize God’s voice in it, as you also are failing to do.
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But I do not say that a believer will never speak in tongues. Sooner or later, all those baptized with the Holy Spirit will pray or speak in tongues and so will all the other gifts be manifest as the Spirit wills from time to time. Finally, Paul says that the gift of tongues is the least of all the gifts. If so, why would God choose tongues as the “seal of authenticity” and not another more important gift?”
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Again, it is because Paul is talking there about the gift, or ministry of speaking in various languages, not the “stammering lips and other tongues” that God has given as sign of the covenant.
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John, I also disagree on another point. You write:
“we must also allow God to take the “her” out of us. And the main way He does that is by removing, one by one, the wrong ideas about our heavenly Father that we have taken in.”
You are right in that God does the work. However, while the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin, and the truth rids us of falsehood, making us free, the Bible tells us how the harlot comes to an end, and that is at the hands of the beast she rides, in whose heart God has put it to destroy her:
“And he says to me, The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues, and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God gave into their hearts to do His mind, and to act with one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast until the Words of God will be fulfilled” (Revelation 17:15-17).
Therefore, it is not as you say, “by removing, one by one, the wrong ideas about our heavenly Father that we have taken in.” You give yourself away (not that you should not be open and willing to be exposed) in speaking as you do. You reveal in this and many other ways that she is yet with and in you. We know that she is destroyed by the fires to which the believer is subjected. God used the beast to destroy her in us. It is not a pleasant event and process, but it is the only, effective one. Otherwise God would not do it that way, would He?
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“You do greatly err.” You are even to this moment full of the arrogant and ignorant spirit of the Whore. The Beast of Revelation has not even come yet, and yet you claim that he has already destroyed the Whore in you? That is utter nonsense.
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You add:
“But I caution you, brothers, that for the level of the knowledge of God that you possess, your words are too threatening and too confident.”
Firstly, I believe I have shown you that you need to reconsider your ability and position to judge our level of knowledge. You have misinterpreted what I was saying, but more importantly, you do not have “the level of the knowledge of God” you think to have yourself.
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God will judge us all in that matter.
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Secondly, we threaten nobody. If our words seem threatening, they are threatening to those who are not in the light. You have no ability to discern spiritually in righteousness, or you would not make that judgment. However, while you are in error saying that our words are “too confident,” it is true that we are confident. John, if our confidence is not in ourselves, but in Him, which it is, we can never be “too confident.” He has done a good work in us, for which we are greatly thankful; you have no idea! Surely He rewards those that are for the truth and who diligently seek after Him, and “daily loads them with benefits.” We know His faithfulness. We can, unlike you (not a jab, but a calling of attention and to repentance) say with the psalmist:
“Concerning the works of men, by the Words of Your lips, I am kept from the paths of the destroyer” (Psalms 17:4).
You are in works of men, John. You need to repent of those. They do indeed destroy. That is why our paths have crossed, that you might be warned. We are here as you need us, Lord willing, ready to serve.
Contending for the faith once delivered to the saints,
Victor
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There are no works of men here that I know of, but if you can point out any, I will repent of them. God will judge that, as well.
You certainly do threaten people, just as your father the Pope does, and with the same lack of ordination from Jesus.
You are over-confident and over-religious. Yours is not the way of righteousness, peace, and joy. We here want nothing to do with it. You are being very foolish.
Victor, my friend, I hope that Jesus makes you a victor indeed. But to this point, your victory is truly in name only. Nothing would give me greater joy than if you really would hear from God and become in fact what you claim already to be.
My best wishes,
Pastor John
Victor’s reply:
To John Clark and all involved;
I have surely learned that unless God opens the prison door and frees a soul from deception, that soul remains in the cell he or she might think to be a country club. Only the grace of God suffices, and He often brings that grace by the preaching of the truth. The seed bears fruit where the soil is receptive.
You reply to me:
“You most certainly have not entered into that rest because you have not finished the course. No one still in this life has. That rest is salvation, or glorification with Christ on a new earth “wherein dwelleth righteousness”. To claim to have entered into that rest is the spiritual equivalent to the fundamentalist/evangelical Christian claim that they are already saved. Thinking such thoughts and making such professions puffs people up and gives them a false confidence.”
On what basis do you deny that one can have entered rest and continue to walk with the Lord in this life? Do you have any Scriptural testimony relating to that specific issue?
You continue:
“Such false confessions can also cause them to exhibit cruel arrogance toward those who are not so “wise” in comparison to themselves.”
If the confession is true, then it is not arrogance any more than those claiming, in the ears of the unconverted, to be baptized in the Spirit. Would you not agree?
You say:
“I have read the arrogant, sarcastic responses that you and/or your buddy sent to saints of God here who are humble, wise, and good. You should not speak to the children of God so haughtily; in fact, it would be sin even to speak to Satan in such proud and cruel tones.”
You are judging after the appearance. We have not been arrogant, nor have we been sarcastic in the main, though sarcasm there may be from time to time, yet for good, even as Elijah was sarcastic with the prophets of Baal. You are not judging righteous judgment, and are found to be doing that of which you accuse us.
You write:
“To such a “reviler” as you are is not godly. You should not do that. Jesus doesn’t.”
Jesus doesn’t what? Speak harshly, or sarcastically? I have not seen Him in the Scriptures with sarcasm, but anyone with understanding can easily find the harsh words He had for religious hypocrites who were blind but claimed to see. They too thought they were God’s people, and so much as said to Him, “Who do you think you are?” as if He was arrogant. They accused Him of many things. While He spoke harsh but true things against them, in righteousness, they spoke harsh but false things against Him. That is what is happening here between us.
You write:
“‘You do greatly err.’ You are even to this moment full of the arrogant and ignorant spirit of the Whore. The Beast of Revelation has not even come yet, and yet you claim that he has already destroyed the Whore in you? That is utter nonsense.”
You speak historically, and externally, determining all things after the appearance, in the flesh. If it is nonsense to you, it is because you have never experienced redemption from the whore. You blaspheme; if against me, forgivable; if against the Spirit, unforgivable.
Tell me John, if the whore is still in you, then you have no ability or right to judge me, because the beam remains in your eye, regardless of whether the whore is in me or not. But if you claim that the whore is no longer in you, and her going can only be by the beast, according to Scripture, then how was she destroyed in you if the beast has yet to come, as you say?
You write:
“God will judge us all in that matter.
There are no works of men here that I know of, but if you can point out any, I will repent of them. God will judge that, as well.”
We have identified your works, your lies, your false doctrine and love, and even now is God judging you by us.
“You certainly do threaten people, just as your father the Pope does, and with the same lack of ordination from Jesus.”
When and how did we threaten? Tell us, if you can, but you can’t. If the truth threatens any, or appears to do so, it is because those judging are in darkness and unwilling to repent of their sins and gods. Neither are we threatened.
We have faithfully spoken. It will not be long before you know the sentence from the mouth of the Judge of all the earth. You have been uncovered, John. Now you will know that God is not deceived.
Having overcome, and seated on His throne with Him, being scoffed at by scoffers as prophesied, but more thankful than ever,
Victor
Paul’s reply:
John, Paul here, Victor’s “buddy.” How thin the veneer of civility you wear, my friend! It does not take much for you to expose your false doctrine and treacherous spirit. One of the evidences of those baptized with the Spirit is that they have the power to take up serpents. We do so manifest that power here, as those given eyes to see will know.
I will deal with your errors and you altogether, as they are one. To begin with, you write: “When Jesus left Zachaeus’ house, salvation left, too, because Jesus is our salvation, and was the salvation of Israel (Lk. 2:25-30).”
By your words you call Jesus a liar. He is the One Who said that He had come to seek and to save that which was lost. If He said that He had brought salvation to this man’s house, how can you possibly say it left with the Lord when He physically departed the premises? Is His work that tenuous, and in vain? Are you not speaking carnally, localizing His presence to a physical body? Truly, you do not care that you make the Lord a liar by speaking as you do because you are really only concerned with the ministry of “Pastor John,” which you seek to protect and defend first and foremost. You get technical with us here, looking diligently for, and jumping on, any opportunity wherein you perceive you could disagree with what Victor has written to you. You seek to discredit the messenger and thereby deny the message that judges you. Your ways are not prospering you because light always reveals what is hidden in darkness. You damn yourself by trying to deny and fight it, John.
In the same fault-finding spirit you wrote: “Concerning death still reigning in Zachaeus house, I am reminded of the verse in Romans 5, in which Paul make the astonishing statement that “Death reigned from Adam to Moses”, instead as we would think, “from Adam to Jesus”. So, maybe death was not reigning in Zachaeus house, since he was an Israelite of notable integrity, even before Jesus visited him.”
The sloppiness of your thinking here, as one presuming to be a minister of God and learned in Scripture, would be surprising except that your intentions, which cause you to err, have already been revealed. You slip into making such a foolish statement as you do here because you are willing to find fault with us to preserve yourself. Your contentions backfire on you, as they must. The Scripture you refer to in Romans 5 is preceded by a verse that explains what you have clearly overlooked. It says that although sin was not imputed when there was no Law (from Adam to Moses), death still reigned during that time, before Moses gave Israel the Law. The Law was given to make sin more obvious, to bring it into focus. So if death reigned where sin was not imputed, then how much more where it was imputed, from Moses to Jesus!
The salvation unto life that came to Zacchaeus’ house was indeed by the grace of God through Christ, and not a matter of personal righteousness, which only one who has not known the grace of God would suggest. And how is there integrity and life with one who pledged to restore fourfold that which he had taken by false accusation? You readily and amazingly enough, without any consciousness of doing so, deny the Lord of glory to promote yourself, as you do in all your ways. You behave as a scoundrel and common thief, now found out and exposed before all.
You say that we could not have possibly entered into rest, because none in this life ever have. According to you the rest of God is a state that comes only after physical death. You are right that it is after death, but the death is in this realm, by identification with Christ through the cross as He arranges and performs in the lives of His saints, who walk with Him by faith. “Precious in the sight of the Lord, is the death of His saints” (Psalm 116:15). You apply that to physical death, according to your carnal mind as one living in the fleshly realm and glorying in it. You are an enemy of the cross of Christ.
At every turn you make a liar of the Lord by your expressions born of carnal thinking, blaspheming His work that He has commanded and accomplished in His saints from the beginning. The writer of Hebrews, inspired by the Holy Spirit, exhorts us, the saints ALIVE IN THIS WORLD, to labor to enter into the rest God has reserved for us. Nowhere does the Scripture say or even imply that this is not possible for this life. Why would it not be? How could it not be? Why would we be exhorted to strive to do this thing here and now if it were not possible? How is it that external death would accomplish, as you think, that which we are commanded to perform here and now? It is certainly acknowledged to be a most pressing matter and needful thing to be ceasing from our own works. Is that not what leaving “Christianity” behind is all about? One must cease from his own works to enter fully into God’s work. To teach that one cannot do so in this life is the product of non-experience and unbelief. It is the work of Satan to keep people out of the Kingdom of God. You serve him well, John, but your time is short.
Yes, you are a guardian of the gates of hell, making sure to keep them tightly shut on those consigned by God in that place for their time. You are one of the nations that refuse to come up to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles (God with us). And not only do you not come up to honor God, but you fight against Jerusalem. Woe to you! “And this shall be the plague with which Jehovah will strike all the peoples who have fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes shall rot in their sockets. And their tongue shall rot in their mouth” (Zechariah 14:12). You are destroyed in your sins by your ways in which you deny Christ, even while those who are dead with you think you are alive.
Rather than being destroyed, why not repent and live? But for you, John, it is easier and more convenient to put the blame on us, calling us arrogant, as you do in your letter: “Thinking such thoughts and making such professions puffs people up and gives them a false confidence. Such false confessions can also cause them to exhibit cruel arrogance toward those who are not so “wise” in comparison to themselves. I have read the arrogant, sarcastic responses that you and/or your buddy sent to saints of God here who are humble, wise, and good.”
Tell us specifically where we have been arrogant and sarcastic with anyone, John. You say we unjustly accuse those who are “humble, wise, and good.” Show us how, with quotes, and back up your allegations. And what is this talk about those who are “good”? Truly, you are a manpleaser, a flatterer, and you say these things to be seen of Donna, Mark, Amy and others you seek to keep for yourself. Only Satan and his false prophets and teachers flatter, calling it “love.” May God deliver whom He wills from your deception. Jesus said no man is good. Why are you constantly contradicting what He says? You go on to write: “You should not speak to the children of God so haughtily; in fact, it would be sin even to speak to Satan in such proud and cruel tones. To such a “reviler” as you are is not godly. You should not do that. Jesus doesn’t.”
You follow another “Jesus.” The real Jesus Christ says that as many as He loves He rebukes and chastens, and scourges every son He receives. As for those that rebel against God, He also says that He slays them with the sword of His mouth. You are wrong all around, serving Ashtoreth, goddess of carnal love, who seduces men to worship her with self-righteous affection of the flesh, affecting godliness, all in the Name of Christ. You may deny being a “Christian,” but you do claim to be of Christ. What is the difference, hypocrite? You have only notched up the stench in His nose, heightened by your hypocrisy, being utterly foul, and fit to be burned. We do delight in declaring so, that you might be put away, and that God might have rest from your horrible sins and blasphemies. We fully understand Paul’s feelings and words to Elymas, words that don’t suit Ashtoreth’s, or her servant’s, fancy of love:
“O son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all craftiness, enemy of all righteousness, will you not stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?” (Acts 13:10)
As for your circular and inane reasonings about speaking in tongues, or the gift of tongues, there is nothing to argue about there. Speaking in tongues, or the gifts of the Spirit, are not the issue here. We are addressing the issue. We are speaking to the antiChrist spirit, who is here, in you, even as John wrote:
“Little children, it is the last time. And just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18).
As the accuser of the brethren, you accuse us without substance. You write: “You are even to this moment full of the arrogant and ignorant spirit of the Whore. The Beast of Revelation has not even come yet, and yet you claim that he has already destroyed the Whore in you? That is utter nonsense.”
The beast not come yet? How can you say that? If the whore is here, so is the beast, upon whose back she rides. And if you claim that the whore’s power is at least partially removed from you, how can that be if it is the beast God uses to destroy her? Self-contradicting hypocrite! Revelation speaks of this mystery:
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those dwelling on the earth will marvel, those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is” (Revelation 17:8).
You are one of those marveling. Why? Because you cannot receive the truth. Your name is not written in the Book of Life. You do not have His Spirit. Yours is a false baptism and tongues. That goes for your proselytes, too. When we tell you the truth, you call it threatening. You do not dispute or answer the facts, as one that possessed the truth could easily do. We tell you what the Scriptures have to say about how false religion is removed from us, and your answer is to tell us that we are full of it (false religion). Because you do not have the truth, that is all that is left for you to do, make accusations. Here is another example:
“You certainly do threaten people, just as your father the Pope does, and with the same lack of ordination from Jesus. You are over-confident and over-religious. Yours is not the way of righteousness, peace, and joy. We here want nothing to do with it. You are being very foolish.”
Show us where and how we threatened anybody, John. And how so like the pope? Give us specifics, facts. As for the rest of you, to whom I am sending this letter, this is your chance to speak up as well. Have we threatened you? Where have we spoken ill-advisedly, without facts or Scriptures to back up what we say, like John, who has not provided any meaningful and substantive answers? And how are those facts and Scriptures we have given you in error, if you are in disagreement? Give specifics, or consider yourselves found out as well, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us” (1 John 2:19).
Contending for the faith once delivered to the saints, which is feigned everywhere by pretenders that love themselves and not Jesus Christ,
(John never replied to either of these last two letters.)
PART II
The correspondence with John led to additional correspondence with members of his group. One person asked how we came by their address. When John found out that Carol Browne was the source he wrote to her, and what follows is their correspondence, with additional commentary from Victor.
John Clark, Sr. sent this letter to Carol:
Dear Carol:
According to someone named Sara at Issues of Life, you gave those people my email address as well as the addresses of others on my daily mailing list. If you did this out of good will, I can appreciate your concern. But the men associated with that group and who wrote to me with your help are as arrogant and aggressive as any people with whom I have ever had any concourse.
I have blocked them from my email account and advise you to avoid their ungodly spirit and their doctrines.
Pastor John
Carol’s reply:
Dear John
My motive for giving your email address and contacts to Paul and Victor was for goodwill indeed towards you and all parties.
I am so sorry to hear that you have blocked their emails. They are not arrogant and aggressive as you falsely accuse. They speak from the Lord being given to say the things they are by Him and in Him. If you feel offended by their words to you and others, then it exposes you for the sake of your own good.
At first I was also offended when they started to send me emails and I thought that I was very clever with my replies to them, but their words cut like a sharp knife into my heart and I knew, like I knew, like I knew that they were speaking the truth. You know how the saying goes “The truth hurts.” Do you not know that Christ has come with the sword, to divide, to offend and to set the prisoners free?
They exposed me for the phony I was and I am ever grateful towards the Lord for them. They are my best friends because they wounded me.
I love this scripture “The wounds of a friend are faithful and the kisses of the enemy deceitful.”
We all need to examine ourselves and humble ourselves before God and repent with mourning and broken hearts. When we are dethroned and acknowledge our sins and repent, Christ comes with healing in His wings to show us the Way, the Truth and the Life according to Him, not according to ourselves and our own understandings and doctrines.
The Lord Jesus in His Mercy has forgiven me and has set me free and I have had blessing upon blessing from Him since. Perhaps He will do the same for you if you repent for your denial of Him. The Lord has visited you and found you wanting for you have not said “Blessed is he that comes in the Name of the Lord.”
God’s will be done in all things on earth as it is in Heaven.
Praise the Lord
Kind regards
Carol
John Clark, Sr. wrote this reply to Carol Browne’s letter:
Hi Carol:
You wrote, “They exposed me for the phony I was and I am ever grateful towards the Lord for them. They are my best friends because they wounded me.”
You were not a phony. I re-read your emails from a few months ago, and you were sincere and searching for what is right. But you are right about one thing; they have wounded you, and deeply. Spiritual abuse does not qualify as “the wounds of a friend”. This conviction of yours is not of God; it is of the flesh. You have been seduced by an over-religious spirit.
I assume that you have received the holy Ghost baptism now (with the evidence of speaking in tongues) since you said that “The Lord Jesus in His Mercy has forgiven me and has set me free.” If you have not received that baptism, Carol, then you are not yet forgiven and certainly not set free. Quite the contrary, being unforgiven and yet speaking with such bold authority means that He has rejected you and turned you over to an even deeper darkness than that in which you were previously bound, and I am sorry for that. I am truly saddened by it.
When and if you are shown the grace to recover from this snare and discover what has really happened to you, we will still be here, if God will help us, and we will still be willing to do what we can to encourage and edify you. From the tone of your letter, it appears that there isn’t much that we or Jesus can do for you now. (Didn’t someone help you word that letter of yours?) Until that time, which I hope will come, please refrain from passing our email addresses to any more of those insufferable, self-appointed prophets.
Your non-Christian servant for Christ,
Pastor John
PS It wouldn’t be, would it Carol, that you have been seduced in more ways than one by Paul or Victor? That is often the case with these exalted prophets and searching young women like you.
Victor’s response:
This is your shepherd, people, one who makes vile suggestions, with no basis for them whatsoever, and he calls us false prophets? You follow a sick, self-centered man who serves his own belly. Call us liars and deluded, if you will, and you do, but we stand on record now, by God’s grace, having faithfully warned all.
Lord Jesus, thank You so much for telling us beforehand, and giving us cause to rejoice, because our reward is great with You, even now. So they did with our brothers, the prophets before us.
Victor Hafichuk
Here is a letter from Jackie Byrnes after reading Carol’s reply to John Clark, Sr.:
Will you be printing John’s response to Carol? [She refers to the note above.]
Victor’s reply:
Jackie,
It is commonly assumed that Paul and I are religious hypocrites and charlatans like so many others on the net, including your “Pastor John.” You write, likely thinking that we would be reluctant to publish his letter to Carol, thinking we shrink from the “truth.” We will soon know who shrinks from the truth. We already know. While we have not blocked emails coming from your direction, John has blocked them coming from us, as have others of his following. Neither are we afraid of Carol being confronted and tested here. All must go through the fires; otherwise they are not valid participants in the Kingdom, not having on a wedding garment.
While John blocks our correspondence, he reserves the right to send us mail to speak his mind. He is a liar and a fearful hypocrite, and we will prove it, although those set on the spiritual and social pleasures of this world will not care about such evidence, not loving the Lord Jesus Christ as they profess. While you wickedly ask if we will publicize his letter to her, I will righteously answer: Indeed we will! In his letter, you think you have proof of justification for your idolatry, but we see with God’s eye the reality, the reflection of a wicked man, whose days are numbered. I do also declare to you that you will see his end, and wonder.
Not playing games as you religious, taking upon yourselves the Lord’s Name in vain,
Victor
2nd reply from Victor to John Clark’s response to Carol Browne:
John’s letter to Carol contains foolishness and false doctrine not difficult at all to perceive and to counter by the Scriptures, for those who have any love of the truth at all.
He begins with false accusation without foundation. John, you are a flattering fool. How do you know Carol was sincere? Not even by a counterfeit spirit do you think you discern, though you have one. You simply judge after the appearance, as all carnal men do.
John writes: “If you have not received that baptism, Carol, then you are not yet forgiven and certainly not set free.”
This I know, and you can read it on record (Our Testimonies), that when I experienced repentance, my life dramatically changed, though I had yet to receive the Spirit. My guilt was lifted, my sins were taken away, the Bible became a new book to me, my social relations changed altogether, and my entire life was brought into a focus on the Lord Jesus Christ. I knew I was forgiven, with my vices removed, which I had tried to remove but failed, unable to do so. Masturbation, smoking, cursing, and more were taken away. God FORGAVE ME, and relative to the life I had led theretofore, I was indeed free! I had asked the Lord Jesus to take over my life, He did so, and my life was turned completely. You are a liar, John Clark, and you deceive your following. You bastard! See if God does not do something with you, you blaspheming, proud hypocrite, viper.
For the rest of you, in your ignorance you may argue that experiences are not authority (although you certainly idolize experience), but I will prove to you by Scripture that one can indeed be forgiven and made free before receiving the Spirit, though he or she must go on to receive the Spirit. I have already given the example of Zacchaeus, who was overjoyed in forgiveness, salvation having come to his house. He had repaid all those he had defrauded, and gave half his goods to the poor – from mammon to Jesus Christ! A miracle of repentance! Your lying pastor claims salvation came and left when Jesus left the house. Liar! Your doctrine of forgiveness and freedom coming only by the reception of the Spirit, with your wickedly devised trademark, stretching the Scriptures for your purposes, is nothing less than a ploy, a snare to capture souls for your own private kingdom. Viper, hypocrite! You are a vile one. Woe to you, John!
The woman who walked into the Pharisee’s house washed the Lord’s feet with her tears, dried them with her hair, and kissed His feet incessantly. What did Jesus say to her? “Go in peace! Your sins are forgiven!” Were her sins forgiven, or were they not? Did she go in peace, or did she not? Can one have true peace without freedom within, or can one not? John Clark, you liar, how long will you impudently abuse the truth of God to wicked ends? God is not mocked. He is done with you and your perversity, and all will see it. Mark it, all of you.
Out of Mary Magdalene came seven evil spirits. Do you think she was not free? Do you think she was not forgiven for sins that gave license for those demons to enter in the first place? All this happened before Pentecost. How long will you foolish people listen to this bastard spue lies? How long will you prefer his praises to God’s praise? How long will you eat up his flatteries as a dog laps up its own vomit? Wake up to righteousness! You are not getting away with it; I don’t care HOW GOOD YOU FEEL!
To the once lame man whom Jesus had healed, He said, “You are made whole. Go and sin no more, lest a worse thing befall you.” You don’t think he was forgiven, because he had not yet received the Spirit “with the evidence of speaking in tongues” as you wickedly insist to impose your trademark on the foreheads of those who believe you? Liar! False teacher! Wicked predator! The man was indeed forgiven.
Carol, if God has indeed done something genuine in her (the fruits will tell), can answer for herself when next at her computer, the day after tomorrow. To reply to your insinuations, John, she wrote her letter entirely without any input from us whatsoever. As to her falling victim to predatory men, again, if you had anything to do with God at all, much more being a man of God, you would not make such public, unfounded slurs upon anyone, planting evil thoughts in her mind or in the minds of any. As I said, you are a wicked man.
John, how is it that you cowardly block our mail (Paul and Victor) to your email address, yet continue to send mail to us? Arrogant coward! You have no substance. That is why you slither out of sight. All of you will notice that we have blocked nobody’s mail from any of you, but “the wicked flee when none pursues.” You are cowards, those of you who are afraid to hear what we have to say, stopping your ears to avoid conviction of sin. Your deeds are evil and your darkness you prefer to the light we shine. Serpents, find your holes and hide in them, but know this, that vipers’ dens find no place to hide from God’s fire, which is upon you even now, by His Word. Mock because you don’t believe. Watch! I say, watch and see if your mocking will deliver you!
So, you think that men of God will not speak as I have done here? Think again. I strenuously and candidly, admit and declare that I am angry with such as John Clark, a liar, blasphemer, evil surmiser, using and abusing the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for his own selfish ends. God, I tell you, is not at all pleased.
Jesus did not spare the hypocrite. Nor did His true servants. Read The False Religious Love that Hates (Rejects) God and Does God Speak Only Gentle Words? if you can stomach reality, testified in God’s Word, after a diet of dung dished out to you by a scoundrel of the first order. READ IT!
It is the TRUTH that makes one free. None of you are free because you are subject to lies and to a servant of the father of lies. Repent. This is no phony, religious act. Repent!
May the mouths of scorners and mockers be stopped presently. May there be mercy for those genuinely repentant, not seeking their own wills, but Yours, Father in Heaven!
Contending earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints, even as brother Jude exhorted,
Victor
Carol Browne wrote this response to John Clark’s letter to her:
Hi John
At the time I wrote to you I was searching for truth concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When Paul and Victor started to write to me, I was in a messianic group where I believed to have found the Truth in Christ Jesus (whose name I thought was only Yeshua and not Jesus). That is when they exposed me for the phony I was. When I wrote to you I was sincere and searching for the truth, it was at exactly the same time that Victor and Paul had spoken the truth concerning my beliefs and being wounded by their words, I started to search deeper. Later on I sent them a testimony written by Gary which I got from your website. I was quite shocked when I saw that they found error in his testimony. This made me sit up and take careful note of all things being exposed. Being very young in the Lord, I sat quietly watching all things that they said to others. Bear in mind that at the time I thought that you were a true man of God and believed in the same things as Victor and Paul and I believed in the doctrine written on your site and loved the music you sent me not having the discernment to know the difference between truth and error.
The instant Paul and Victor exposed Gary’s testimony, I stopped listening to your music and was heart broken that I was once again misled.
To say that I was spiritually abused by them is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You do not know the Lord, if you did you would recognize His brothers. My conviction is not of the flesh, it is from the Holy Spirit (the Most High God, Jesus our Saviour and Lord). I am not sorry to say this to you, but you have a religious spirit, not having the substance as I have seen in Paul and Victor. I have not received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit yet, but will in God’s time, however, God has blessed me and by my belief in His brethren He has given me His mercy to see the things I could not previously see. What I can also say is that you have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but have received a lying spirit because you do not recognize that Paul and Victor are speaking from the Lord. What I now see is the house that John built “Pastor John’s house”, not the House that Christ built.
The things I have written to you do not come from myself, it comes from God who has given me the ears to hear and the eyes to see. God has not rejected me, otherwise I would be dead and would not be able to say these things to you. I only speak about things that were given to me to say to you, I do not speak of myself, but of the truth concerning what I have seen and heard. Paul and Victor do not need to be defended by me. The Truth in Christ of which they speak is their defense.
You think that my tone is hard, just like you thought of Paul and Victor. Was Christ’s tone not hard to Peter when He addressed him as Satan? Was Peter not His friend and disciple? Yet, Christ loved Peter.
You cannot edify me, not then, not now, not ever, how self righteous of you to even suggest.
You end off as “your non-Christian servant for Christ”. How well spoken of yourself!
Regards
Carol
John Clark’s reply:
Dear Carol:
Thank you for writing me again. I realize that you have some deep feelings about these things, and I do not despise them. But let me just point out the kind of statements which, under Paul and Victor’s influence, you make that are unwise and unjust. Please put up with me for a few moments and consider what I am saying.
#1 “To say that I was spiritually abused by them is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.”
Carol, it is not blasphemy against the holy Ghost for me to say that Paul and Victor have harmed you spiritually. The unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the holy Spirit is when one of God’s children attributes to the devil what he really knows is from God. The envious Pharisees, for example, blasphemed the holy Spirit when they said Jesus’ miraculous power came from the devil. Think, Carol! And compare that truth with what you are saying. Jesus said that a man could speak all manner of evil against either him or the Father and still be forgiven. But you have been taught now that it is the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the holy Ghost simply to say that Paul and Victor have misled you! Don’t you see how very high and mighty they have persuaded you to believe that they are? According to what they say, if a child of God criticizes Paul or Victor, he has blasphemed the holy Ghost. Yet Jesus said a person could speak against him and the Father and not be guilty of that sin. If Paul and Victor’s doctrine were true, Paul and Victor would be greater than the Lord himself. And that is exactly the way they talk. Please don’t be like that. It isn’t right.
#2 “You do not know the Lord, if you did you would recognize His brothers. . . . What I can also say is that you have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but have received a lying spirit because you do not recognize that Paul and Victor are speaking from the Lord.”
Carol! It is true that we must recognize the brothers of Christ to know Christ. But what does that mean? Think, Carol! Every person anywhere on the planet who has received the baptism of the holy Ghost is a brother or sister of Christ, regardless of what that person has been taught, or what he says of us, or even regardless of how far away from holiness he has drifted in his personal life. God has some very wayward children, Carol. But they are still God’s children.
Paul and Victor’s standard of who a brother or a sister is (as reflected in your words), is that a person must confess that whatever those two men proclaim is holy and wise and the voice of God. Dear Carol! You cannot really believe that the only people on earth who have God’s Spirit are they who believe that Paul and Victor are God’s spokesmen. Don’t you see how extremely exalted and proud a spirit theirs is? Let’s just say, dear lady, that Paul and Victor have actually been caught up to the third heaven, just as the apostle Paul was, and let’s just say that I am blind to that reality. In that case, I may be wrong, but for you to conclude that I have not even being born again because I am ignorant is as wrong as anything can possibly be. To judge God’s children by that standard is to put Paul and Victor on such a pedestal of importance that they surpass even that of Jesus. He does not tell us that we are not his just because we are ignorant. If he did that, all of us would be damned.
I know that Jesus has taught me. And I also know that God has precious people everywhere who do not understand what I am saying or believe it. I do not condemn them as hypocrites and Satanic and not even being God’s children because they do not yet perceive the word of God that came to me. I love them as children of God who do not yet understand.
Oh, Carol, “this persuasion does not come from the one who called you.” Please take a few steps back and look at things again. Try to see what I am telling you.
Could you tell me what the error was that Paul and Victor thought they saw in Brother Gary’s testimony? It would have been wise and just, Carol, and it would have been safe for you, if you had contacted Brother Gary with what Paul and Victor told you was wrong with his testimony so that he could either point out to you what they have misunderstood or he could have had the opportunity to be enlightened and repent. You were not at that time knowledgeable enough about the things of God to judge such things, especially without hearing the whole matter.
Lastly, you did not reply to my question about your personal relationship with Paul and/or Victor, and you do have have to. That is entirely your business. It’s just that the vast difference in tone between your meek and sincere emails previously and some comments in your emails now is so stunning that I had to wonder how those two men managed to bring you under their spell. It has been the case many times that young women are lured into a spiritual trap by a physical attraction to a “prophet”. Forgive me if the suggestion was out of line, but I was, and am, concerned for you.
I wish you well, Carol, and I hope that you will be able to see, if not now, then later, that Paul and Victor are puffed up beyond all reason and righteousness in their own eyes and that it is not good for you to think of them as they think of themselves. It may well be that, for now, you think to see nothing but the crafty hand of Satan in the things I am writing to you, trying to lure you away from God’s true servants. If at a later time, you begin to feel a different and worthier source behind these words, and to feel the sincerity and love that attends them, please do not be angry with yourself or so embarrassed by your expressed opinions that you cannot bring yourself to write me again. I will always remain available to do what I can for you.
Your non-Christian servant,
Pastor John
Carol’s reply:
Hi John
You contradict yourself. In your previous email you stated that they have the antiChrist spirit and that I have been spiritually abused by them and then in your follow-up letter you tell me that you have not blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and then go on to give me an example of what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is. You did not criticize them, but criticized the Holy Spirit within them.
They have not persuaded me that they are high and mighty in any way, quite the contrary. They have only given witness of the Truth that is in them and of Whom they speak. Where have they declared that they are prophets or spoken of themselves? Prove it.
I believe that it has been given to them to speak and that they do with love. Yet, you cannot see because you are blind. Not once have they professed that they are greater than the Lord or talked in that manner as you put it. They have only spoken the truth when exposing the error. For what words of theirs do you condemn them? Tell me if you can.
Why have you blocked their emails. Is it because darkness does not like the Light? Is it because you have pulled the blankets over your eyes because you are afraid that your nakedness will be exposed? I see that as cowardly action on your part.
You ask me to show you where Paul and Victor thought Gary in error. Did Gary not show you? Why do you not ask Paul and Victor yourself and unblock yourself from their emails if you have the heart for it.
Yes, I do believe that if you have the Spirit of God, then you will have recognized Paul and Victor as His. As Jesus said “My sheep know my voice and will not follow a stranger.” I recognized God’s voice speaking through them and recognize you as the stranger cannot say that for you.
My personal relationship with Paul and Victor is solely in Christ. I have not been persuaded after the physical appearance, as you put it because I have not seen them in the flesh, but I have believed in my spirit that what they say is the Truth in Christ Jesus. You call their influence on me a “spell” now you accuse them of witchcraft. These are serious allegations. John you are so deep in the quagmire and sinking deeper still.
You accuse them of being puffed up for speaking the truth. Show the evidence of your allegations if you can.
Regards
Carol
PART III
We go back to where things began when Carol introduced Paul and Victor to the Clark teaching through Gary Savelli’s testimony, and you will see what came of that.
In his last letter, John asked Carol the following:
“Could you tell me what the error was that Paul and Victor thought they saw in Brother Gary’s testimony? It would have been wise and just, Carol, and it would have been safe for you, if you had contacted Brother Gary with what Paul and Victor told you was wrong with his testimony so that he could either point out to you what they have misunderstood or he could have had the opportunity to be enlightened and repent. You were not at that time knowledgeable enough about the things of God to judge such things, especially without hearing the whole matter.”
To which Carol answered:
“You ask me to show you where Paul and Victor thought Gary in error. Did Gary not show you? Why do you not ask Paul and Victor yourself and unblock yourself from their emails if you have the heart for it?”
Yes, those are good questions. As you will see from the following, not only did we have extensive communications with Gary, we also asked him to include John, and to forward a letter to John that Paul had specifically written to him regarding his own testimony.
The following correspondence with Gary Savelli took place in April, 2005, after we had sent him about 10 pages of comments related to his testimony and his answers to questions about the baptism of the Spirit, pointing out the falsity of his baptism, and error of his thinking. Also included were comments from Carol, as she had brought this matter to our attention. We asked first for her discernment of things said in the testimony, and proceeded from there (all of our commentaries on the Clark testimonies are available upon request, Lord willing).
Gary’s reply after our 10 pages of commentary interspersed in his testimony:
Dear Victor:
I have received your letter about my testimony concerning the baptism of the holy Ghost being the new birth experience. I am glad that my testimony has stirred up such a good discussion among you all… Someone is sure to profit from it if they are really seeking God.
Gary Savelli
www.isaiah58.com
Reply from Victor:
Gary, He has made Himself to be found of us, and we marvel, again and again, that there are so many who profess to know Him but do not. You need to read all that we have sent you. Yes, we do profit in all things, all things now being ours. We talked for your sake, in hopes that YOU will be the one profiting, along with others.
Victor
Gary’s reply:
Hello Victor.
Victor, if you will be honest, I mean REALLY honest, you will admit to yourself and those following you, that you are not the “spiritual person” you claim to be. You need to be taught, you have “much learning”, but you do not possess the power of God, nor experiences with the Spirit of the real Jesus.
The truth is that you are a scared puppy, hiding behind your eloquence. Taking “shots” in the dark at those who have had real experiences with the power of God, to hide the fact that you have NOT had them.
I believe I have the mind of God when I tell you that there is NOBODY who will be saved in the end, who has the Spirit of God (the baptism of the holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues), and teaches others they DON’T need it to have their sins washed away. Especially those who have had the truth told them, and have rejected that truth. Jesus does not say to people, “you don’t need the baptism I died for.” It is by Spirit baptism that we are put INTO the body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13) – that is the NEW BIRTH experience, and that is what this is all about.
I am praying that the reason God had you and your friends spend such an inordinate amount of time dissecting my testimony is that it has “pricked” something in you….something that only the truth of the holy Ghost can expose (and HAS exposed), and that God is using this situation to bring you to repentance, so that hopefully, you CAN be saved in the end.
And if you are the man of God you claim to be, you will forward this, without comment, to your friends Paul and Carol, and let them decide who is telling the truth, and speaking for Jesus.
Your servant,
Gary Savelli
www.isaiah58.com
Paul’s reply:
Greetings in the Lord Jesus Christ, Gary.
Paul here. I have a letter I have written for John Clark that we would like for you to read and to pass along to him. We also request that you send the correspondence we have had with you to John, so that he may be fully informed and included. I am attaching both letters as (clean) Word documents, though I will also copy the letter to John in the body of this email.
Gary’s reply:
Paul, a person who is teaching that the new birth can be obtained without Spirit baptism (WITH the evidence of speaking in tongues in EVERY case) has nothing to offer us.
Per your last e-mail, and I quote from your last e-mail:
“Victor: Discussed. While it is true that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the new birth, tongues are not necessarily the gift of evidence. You preach another spirit, encouraging others to lust after something not of God. Those who believe you are snared as you.”
I don’t have time for your 19 page e-mails [Editor’s Note: that includes his testimony] – they have nothing for me. And knowing my pastor as I do, I am confident that he would not take the time to sort through 19 pages of you telling me, or him, that speaking in tongues is not evidence of the new birth (or Spirit baptism), and how misguided we are. I think you need to move on to someone else.
Gary
Paul’s reply:
You accuse Victor of hiding, but you will not even read our letters to give us a decent answer. You dismiss everything with your pre-recorded message of “tongues being the evidence of baptism of the Spirit.” You are the one hiding, Gary. You quote Victor’s statement about the baptism of the Spirit being the new birth, and then say we deny the baptism as the new birth. You folks are not free of Babylon at all; you are the consummate babblers yourselves!
[Editor’s Note: And where is the providential care for Carol, “the lost sheep”? What? Has the hireling fled from the “wolves” that “devour” her?]You also tell Victor not to say anything to us, but ask him to let us read your letter and see for ourselves (no need to worry there, I received the letter first). Yet you will not do the same with John, allowing him to read and see for himself. We have far more to talk about than your single issue. You are nothing but an empty hypocrite in all your ways, Gary. John’s blood will be on your hands, as yours is on his. You deserve and need each other. You are a murderer and liar, a true son of your father that spawned you. Satan, you are finished. In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ we have vanquished you. Do your work of destruction on these vessels fitted to destruction. For that you are well suited and we commend the work to you in the Name of God.
Victor’s reply:
Gary, you write:
“I believe I have the mind of God when I tell you that there is NOBODY who will be saved in the end, who has the Spirit of God (the baptism of the holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues), and teaches others they DON’T need it to have their sins washed away.”
You are confounded! How could we have received the Spirit in the first place without having our sins washed away, and why would we teach otherwise, having the Spirit of God? Where in any of our teachings do you find foundation for accusing us of such things? You think you have “the mind of God” in this, but God is not a fool, answering ignorantly, without proper judgment, or a liar, perverting and adding to Scripture that which is not there, or a false accuser, accusing His brethren of teaching things that they do not teach. How then can you have His Mind? You have been made stupid by your idolatry, as is always the case. You say you don’t have time for our emails, criticizing the many words given to deliver you. So, if you so choose, go with your gods and be destroyed with your gods.
Victor
Gary’s reply:
Gee whiz Paul…. All I’m saying is that “I’m not interested.” Lighten up man!
Gary
Paul’s reply:
“Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eats, and wipes her mouth, and says, I have done no evil” (Proverbs 30:20).
Gary’s reply:
If the shoe fits, wear it.
Paul’s reply:
It is all a social game and a high to the fornicator.
“Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law” (Zephaniah 3:4).
Gary’s reply:
Amen Paul. The “law” which Zephaniah was referring to, now is what is written in our hearts by the holy Ghost. To tell people they don’t need it (which is what you are doing by telling people that it can be received without the Spirit ever bearing witness through the utterance of tongues) is doing “violence” to it. Listen to what the Spirit is saying to you.
Gary
Our closing comments to the Clark group:
People, you have heard and seen many things in the recent correspondences we have shared with you. If you have not been reading them, you are missing much. Our prayer is that those worthy of salvation be delivered from the wrath to come, separating themselves from all ungodliness perpetrated there. The will of the Lord be done. He will declare who is His and who is not, and that without delay.
Victor Hafichuk