Can people receive sure guidance if only they concentrate on accessing their “Inner Light” and hearing the voice of God for themselves, as Quakers do? Here’s the story of one man who embraces George Fox’s false teaching with disastrous results, because he despises the true route of repentance by faith. “Surely He scorns the scorners; but He gives grace to the lowly” (Proverbs 3:34 MKJV).
Hi Paul
Just curious if you or Victor are familiar with the writings of George Fox?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fox
Michael
Going through with God
(Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22)
Good day, Mike!
I’ve red about Fox and a little of his journal, mostly many years ago. What do you make of him? Are you reading anything now and what are you getting out of it? If there’s something in particular you’d like to share, send it over to us.
Paul
I read some of his material in the past, and decided to read more of his teachings. I find many of his teachings similar to some of the papers on Path of Truth website. I find it interesting that he was preaching against “sects”, which would be Denominations/Churches in our day.
The core of his main teaching is as follows.. The way to eternal life is to go directly to Him. (Jesus Christ), to pray, watch, waiting upon the Lord and in prayer seeking the Lord, to listen. And while waiting upon the Lord we need to listen and HEAR the voice of God to live, to HEAR His voice on a personal level, because His WORD is LIFE, according to John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
All through his teachings he expounds on the need to personally hear the voice of Jesus, and then to OBEY whatever the Lord commands us to do.
By the way I failed again, giving in to watching porn. I had a shouting match with God this morning, though I was the only one shouting, I asked Him if he has ALL power in heaven and earth, then why does he not give us the power to resist and/or be delivered?
Am I frustrated, do I get frustrated? YES!, I’ve been going through this being convicted to repent, crying and praying and seeking deliverance since 1990, only to fail over, and over, and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
Victor mentioned he had a dream or vision of the Lord stating “I Am hurting, I Am hurting” ..well he’s not the only one hurting!, yet He’s the only one with the POWER to do anything about it! I notice Jesus never told the man at Gadara who was crying, and cutting himself with stones to repent. You and I both know why.
Nothing will change UNTIL God does something about it.
I think maybe the Lord allows us sinners to go through this twisted merry-go-round of seeing our true nature, so that when we do go into Hell, we’ll know why we are there. Just my opinion, since many are called, but only a few are chosen – why even call, as those that are called are like me, who live a miserable life knowing who they need, but never able to enter in. Kind of sick.
Michael
Going through with God
(Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22)
Hi Michael,
Some perspective here would help. You write:
“Nothing will change UNTIL God does something about it.”
Haven’t things changed for you recently? You just told us how you were free of your pornography sin for the longest time ever, that God had given you the ability to maintain yourself, didn’t you?
So because you fell, now you say God hasn’t done anything? You want to blame Him for your fall, as if He withheld good from you? Is that really your story and you’re sticking to it?
Do you think that when God gives a person the grace to turn from sin, there is never any struggle or falling after that? Why did Jesus warn people who were delivered of devils to “go and sin no more,” if His deliverance meant they could never fall again? Isn’t God requiring something of us, according to the grace He’s made available and given to us? What of the parable of the talents?
Furthermore, Jesus wasn’t saying God wouldn’t forgive us if we fell, but warned us to beware that we’re not hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For those who are repentant, there is forgiveness, renewal, and going on to better things, if they continue seeking to do what’s right:
“My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world” (1 John 2:1-2 MKJV).
How can we, as servants of God, tell people to repent if He isn’t willing to meet them in their efforts to do what’s right? Are you suggesting He will cast out the one who comes to Him? Are you saying He doesn’t grant us our petitions that are according to His will? Aren’t you suggesting God is a cruel liar, a sadist, Who lets people suffer needlessly? Are you proposing we’re fools for preaching the sure hope He promises, the hope we’ve experienced?
Were you innocent all those years you struggled with pornography? Were you not given over to sin in general, serving yourself and not seeking the Lord with all your heart, if at all? Whose fault is that? That’s the story you told us when you first came to us. So now, paying the penalty for your sins, you accuse the One against Whom you’ve rebelled?
If you’re serious now, why compare your present to the past, when there was no hope then because you weren’t serious? And if you are serious, be prepared for battles and don’t give in to self-pity or to blaming God when you fall down. Get up, set yourself back on the path, and look to the grace of God for your strength. Otherwise, if you say no such thing exists, then it won’t exist for you. It will be as you’ve confessed. You’ll remain in your sins, destroying yourself till there’s nothing left.
Here’s what Paul wrote to believers, telling them what to expect and how to conduct themselves if they would prevail:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 MKJV
(24) Do you not know that those running in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.
(25) And everyone who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.
(26) So then I run, not as if I were uncertain. And so I fight, not as one who beats the air.
(27) But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others, I myself might be rejected.
Your version is, “If you sin, it’s because God hasn’t given you the power to resist, so you may as well throw in the towel because you’re road-kill. And it’s all His fault.”
Who is right? What happened to:
“Going through with God
(Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22)”?
I’d like to hear your explanation for why the Lord didn’t say anything to the man at Gadara about repentance. I see that the man worshiped Jesus, which to me says he had turned to Him by faith.
While George Fox said and taught some true things, and showed much personal courage, we cannot agree in the Lord with all he said and did. For example, while he was against sects, was he not creating another in the Quaker organization he much labored over, even trying to make them the official “Church of England”?
In what you relate of Fox’s teachings I see a major problem. It sounds good to say every person must hear from the Lord for themselves, which is true if it means you need to receive the Word of God by His gift of faith. Often that Word will come from others, however, and never by trying to strain to listen to God, as if He’s speaking continuously and all you need to do is attune your ears and filter out the extraneous noise. That’s the impression one gets from Fox. And oh what things people can come up with when straining to hear from God!
That’s not the way it works, every man for himself, hearing the voice of God. God speaks when He wills, to whom He wills, what He wills, and as He wills. We don’t draw near to Him by our carnal efforts or techniques that pose as spiritual. He apportions the gifts of faith and His Spirit for the sake of all, and not for our own personal power trips.
God isn’t giving out power for the sake of men having power, but is calling on all to repent, to lay down their wills and rights to themselves, to yield up and submit to Him, the One Who bought them with His blood, and to serve Him, His Body, and all men according to His will.
But Fox taught independence from the Body of Christ, which is why we see a lack of recognition and respect for the ordained order of God in his acts and those of the Quakers of old. (For example, they wouldn’t take off their hats for magistrates. Do you believe it pleases God to elevate yourself by disrespecting those in authority by not removing your hat in their presence?) Fox’s doctrine cultivated an environment for every man doing that which was right in his own eyes. Yet the Lord has set up the authorities of this world and of His Kingdom, and both have their place. Believers are to honor both, as long as God is being honored:
1 Peter 2:13-18 MKJV
(13) Then be in obedience to every ordinance of men, because of the Lord, whether to a king as supreme,
(14) or to governors as sent by Him for vengeance on evildoers, but for praise on well-doers.
(15) For such is the will of God, doing good to silence the ignorance of foolish men;
(16) as free, and not having freedom as a cover of evil, but as servants of God.
(17) Honor all. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
(18) Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to those good and forbearing, but also to the perverse ones.
“Obey your leaders, and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls, as giving an account, in order that they may do this with joy and not groaning, for this would be unprofitable for you” (Hebrews 13:17 EMTV).
Romans 13:1-7 MKJV
(1) Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.
(2) So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves.
(3) For the rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the bad. And do you desire to be not afraid of the authority? Do the good, and you shall have praise from it.
(4) For it is a servant of God to you for good. For if you practice evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword in vain; for it is a servant of God, a revenger for wrath on him who does evil.
(5) Therefore you must be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
(6) For because of this you also pay taxes. For they are God’s servants, always giving attention to this very thing.
(7) Therefore give to all their dues; to the one due tax, the tax; tribute to whom tribute is due, fear to whom fear is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
Fox was right about the hirelings and wolves he saw parading as ministers of Christ, but he didn’t escape the corrupt nature that produced such works. That’s the explanation for his contradiction and error. While he taught people to listen only to the “Inner Light” of Christ “dwelling within every man,” Fox also expected them to follow his spiritual authority, as demonstrated in the episode with James Naylor (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Nayler). How can you teach people to be independent of all men and submissive to your “Inner Light” at the same time?
Paul
Hi Paul,
I did find it strange that you accepted as truth what the History books have written about this man George Fox. Do we really know if what was written is the truth?
I have never met any of George Fox Quakers, but common sense tells me not to judge a man by the lifestyle and conduct of his followers.
If I did I’d have to judge Victor by the lifestyle of one of his followers, Dena Dahl. Is that the right right course? I don’t think so.
If we followed that philosophy we might be tempted to judge Christ after the lifestyle of His followers (which are in the millions), and yes I realize not all of them are true saints of God, but should not the same consideration be shown for people who followed a man like Mr Fox?
Is that following John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment?
You stated “Often that Word will come from others, however, and never by trying to strain to listen to God”
I guess we can call it a strain, or call it someone simply trying to pray, but pertaining to this I do see a promise in the scriptures found in James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Or are we to believe all of our carnal efforts to seek God via prayer is vain? Who’s prompting us to pray, our own carnal mind, or is it the work of the Lord in repentance? If God is CALLING to repentance should we not seek Him in prayer?
You stated “That’s not the way it works, every man for himself, hearing the voice of God.”
According to the scriptures His sheep WILL hear His voice..
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
This morning while trying to pray, still feeling disgusted with myself, I sought to use Miguel de Molinos teachings on Quietism prayer, I then heard these exact words while in prayer…“TAKE WITH YOU WORDS”.
Was that Jesus, or my own imagination or the enemy Satan?
I then went to my Bible and found those words in Hos 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
Either that was Jesus rebuking me for staying quiet in prayer, or my own imagination, or the enemy.
Regardless I will follow what I heard, and continue seeking God, I’m either just another religious idiot, or someone trying to answer the call of God to repent.
And I do appreciate your counsel..thank you.
Michael
Going through with God
(Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22)
Hi Michael,
We haven’t judged George Fox by his followers, but by his own words, teachings, and doings, even as recorded in his journal. He’s the one who taught his followers to legalistically not honor the authorities in certain ways. Can you show otherwise?
Furthermore, you gave us the Wikipedia article asking us what we thought. If you didn’t find the article credible, why did you give it to us?
We don’t see your example of Dena as applicable. If Dena was doing something wrong that Victor had taught her, then shame on him. But if Dena acted contrary to the right thing Victor taught her, the shame is on her.
Why would you assume we only relied on the opinions and reports of others, as with the Wikipedia report? While you suspect, if not accuse, us of presumption, what are you doing with us?
If you think we’re incapable of common sense, how much more would you suspect us of being incapable of revelation from God and receiving His anointing as His ministers to speak and bear witness of Him to the world?
You’re also wrong about hearing God’s voice. We never said God’s sheep don’t hear His voice. Here’s what I did say:
“It sounds good to say every person must hear from the Lord for themselves, which is true if it means you need to receive the Word of God by His gift of faith. Often that Word will come from others, however, and never by trying to strain to listen to God, as if He’s speaking continuously and all you need to do is attune your ears and filter out the extraneous noise.”
I went on to add: “That’s not the way it works, every man for himself, hearing the voice of God.” I’m not contradicting myself by saying we hear from God individually, yet not as “every man for himself.” I’m pointing out the crucial lack of balance in Fox’s teaching. Believers are to be submitted to the Lord and one another, particularly to those in authority as ministers in His Body, who speak His Word.
Even while Fox taught not to respect authority, he personally expected to be obeyed and heeded as an authority of God. This encapsulates the confusion and contradiction of his teaching.
For those who receive the faith of Christ, there’s an accountability and responsibility to the Body, which is manifest in submission to the Lord and each other. It’s not about the individual believer imposing his will on the Lord by “waiting” on Him as though that will either force Him to speak or will force open the ears of the one waiting. That isn’t the patience of the saints spoken of in the Scriptures, which is endurance in right-doing and faith, putting one’s trust squarely on the Lord as our Savior.
Romans 10:6-11 MKJV
(6) But the righteousness of faith says this: “Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into Heaven?” that is, to bring Christ down;
(7) or “Who shall descend into the deep?”; that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.
(8) But what does it say? “The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart”; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
(9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
(10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
(11) For the Scripture says, “Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame.”
Where do you find justification for Fox’s and Molinos’ teachings on prayer in the Bible, Michael? Where did Jesus or the apostles teach people the kind of gibberish that comes from Molinos?
“We must know,” writes Molinos, “that the soul is the center and the kingdom of God. If we want the highest king to sit on the throne of the soul, then it has to be pure and quiet, free from sins and deficiencies and free from desire and thoughts. There are two paths towards God, meditation and contemplation. Therefore there are two kinds of spiritual life, outwardly and inwardly. Those who go the outer way try to know God by penance and imaginations. This is the path for beginners. Those who go the inner path which leads to unity with God have turned their attention inward. They live there free from thoughts in peace and quiet in the Presence of God. We have to learn to be in that presence with a loving attention and without imaginations. When we stop our prayers then we must take care not to lose the orientation on God. While being active in the world we should obey the will of God.” (http://wisdomsgoldenrod.com/index.php/slider/51-miguel-de-molinos-and-quietism)
“Who can say, I have made my heart clean; I am pure from my sin?” (Proverbs 20:9 MKJV) Yet Molinos presumes that you and he can do this. The prayer he teaches is a work of the flesh, appearing godly but working deceit by the corrupt inner man and his spiritual imagination. Fox’s teaching that every man could rely on his “Inner Light” is the same thing and equally misguided.
You must also account for the fact that Molinos was Catholic. Catholics don’t know the Lord; otherwise, they wouldn’t be Catholics. No man knows the Lord and believes blatantly diabolical Catholic doctrine. How then would Molinos know anything about prayer and fellowship of the Spirit? The Lamb of God doesn’t mingle with the unclean.
Let me give myself as an example of the shortfall of such teachings of self-reliance. You’ve red my testimony. What good would quiet meditation and leaning on the “Inner Light” have done me, when God determined to lead me into repentance and His discipline by sending a man to teach me? We haven’t met one person since who hasn’t needed this kind of discipline and training.
And what of the tutorship of the Law, which leads men to Christ?
“But we know that the Law is good if a man uses it lawfully, knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous one, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and anything else that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust” (1 Timothy 1:8-11 MKJV).
Fox and Molinos assume all men have a free and clear channel to God just waiting to be tapped by following their instruction and technique. They’re oblivious to the realities of God’s order and methods of bringing men to the place of proper relationship with, and obedience to, Christ in His Body.
You quote James 4:8 to me as if we’re disagreeing with it. Let’s look at the context:
James 4:6-12 MKJV
(6) But He gives more grace. Therefore He says, God resists the proud, but He gives grace to the humble.
(7) Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
(8) Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, sinners; and purify your hearts, double-minded ones.
(9) Be afflicted, and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness.
(10) Be humbled before the Lord, and He will lift you up.
(11) Do not speak against one another, brothers. He who speaks against his brother, and who judges his brother, speaks against the Law and judges the Law. But if you judge the Law, you are not a doer of the Law, but a judge.
(12) There is one Lawgiver Who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you who judges another?
I hear about submission to God, about resisting the devil, and about being humbled to walk circumspectly in the world. I hear about not judging others unrighteously (as you clearly appear to be headed with us), but I don’t hear anything about “Quietistic” prayer technique. So are you right to assume that we’re trashing all prayer, because we don’t agree with this technique? You write:
“Or are we to believe all of our carnal efforts to seek God via prayer is vain? Who’s prompting us to pray, our own carnal mind, or is it the work of the Lord in repentance? If God is CALLING to repentance should we not seek Him in prayer?”
If you’re seeking God by your carnal effort, then your prayers are in vain. “Whatever is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23). “In vain do they worship Me with their lips” (Matthew 15:9). And hasn’t that been proven over and over again, even as you recently wrote us?
“But we know that God does not hear sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him” (John 9:31 MKJV).
“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be” (Romans 8:6-7 MKJV).
Have you tried reading Prayer? Compare what we teach to what Molinos and Fox teach.
Was that the Lord rebuking you on “quiet prayer” with the words, “Take with you words”? We don’t have a witness that He was, Michael. The Lord hears the words of our heart, whether we speak out loud or within. Again, it’s not a matter of technique, but of spirit and faith. And when the Lord rebukes, He makes it plain and readily understood.
Devils play games and carnal minds imagine all sorts of things, but God is ever faithful and true, making His will plain to those who genuinely seek after Him, fully given to obey.
Are we suggesting in any way that you shouldn’t pray and seek the Lord? Do you seriously believe for a moment that we are? If so, you don’t know us at all and have had nothing to do with us. But we will teach the right way of seeking and obeying, the one the Lord has taught us that works.
Michael, your entire letter reeks of ignorance of what we believe and preach. Before you write us another letter, or speak to anyone else about us, you need to better acquaint yourself with our doctrine. More importantly, you need to repent. How can you believe and be enlightened when you prefer yourself to God?
It appears your bondage to your vice is linked to your attitude and lack of understanding of the doctrine of God. He promises the truth makes free, that HE makes free. If you’re not free, the problem isn’t with Him, the Truth, or His doctrine, but with the one in unbelief. And you will become indignant with Him when you fail?
(By the way, you reply to none of the matters we discussed in our letter to you, none but those with which you’re quick and ready to fault us.)
There’s a marvelous contradiction at work in you. You look to man for deliverance, like Molinos, Fox, yourself (in that you work in your own strength to deliver yourself, and justify yourself before God), and who knows how many others, and when you judge they’ve failed you, you blame God for the failure. It seems you take little or no responsibility for yourself. How then do you expect to be delivered from your sins and vices?
Though we are the Lord’s and speak the truth by His will and commission, you subject us to your blame.
Repent, Michael, and your bondage of porn and masturbation will go, along with all other evils, but if you find fault with God and with us, as you’ve done, you’ll be destroyed in your sins. Your choice, by His grace.
Paul and Victor
“Before you write us another letter, or speak to anyone else about us, you need to better acquaint yourself with our doctrine.”
If God be willing I will, But I definitely believe I need to better acquaint myself with JESUS CHRIST, and HE is more than doctrine, or words on a computer screen. Revelation of Christ does not come via reading Doctrines, as so said the Lord – Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
First of all, from day one I stated that I was a sinner seeking God’s salvation, so your statement of “you don’t know us at all and have had nothing to do with us.” does not make any sense, or do you suppose sinners have some form of special insight to know the ministers of Christ? Actually there is a way for even sinners to know, as is stated at the bottom of this letter.
Also I’m not sure WHY you wrote “or speak to anyone else about us”, since I’ve not not talked to anyone about the Path of Truth website, nor discussed The Path of Truth teachings and website with anyone.
Since that being the case, am I to believe the Spirit of Truth led you to write your letter?
God knows that I have not talked with anyone.
Your own words..“how much more would you suspect us of being incapable of revelation from God and receiving His anointing as His ministers to speak and bear witness of Him to the world?”
Why did the Spirit of Truth NOT reveal to you that I have not talked with anyone before you wrote your response of “or speak to anyone else about us”? Was that an oversight, or just the flesh?
By the way, Jesus proved to the woman at the well that he was the Spirit of TRUTH when he told her “For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.”(John 4:18)
Also Jesus proved he was the TRUTH when He cast out the legion that was inside of the man at Gadara, He did NOT give him advice to get a little cleaned up first, before He could cast the devil out.
Jesus was able to DEMONSTRATE by the SPIRIT, even to sinners, and those sinners were able to discern and/or experience that He was the real deal.
1Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
1Cor 4:19-20 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1Thess 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Michael
Going through with God
(Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22)
Mike, many of us, I’m sure, have been angry with God at one time or another, given certain trying conditions. I confess I even cursed the Lord many years ago. However, I had a witness that in my anger, I never really meant it – like a child that gets angry with a parent for discipline, but doesn’t really mean what it says in the heat of the moment. God knew my heart and judged me accordingly, with understanding and mercy. I will conclude expressing my judgment on where you’re at on this point after covering other matters.
You greatly and grievously err in your interpretation of what we’ve said to you and in your response to us.
One, we never assumed or said you had spoken to anyone else about us. We requested that you not speak to anyone else about us, until you came to a better understanding of what we were teaching.
Two, Jesus Christ sends His ministers to the world and to His Church precisely to acquaint others with Him. That’s why we have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and elders. He has ordained The Path of Truth that people might come to know Him and His will. Why else would He have us preach and call people such as you to repentance? Your words and arguments are self-righteous foolishness. You grieve the Lord by your defensive and arrogant attitude.
Three, when Jesus spoke in the John 5:39 verse to the Jews who rejected Him, He wasn’t instructing them not to hear (or read) the instruction of those whom God sent to teach from the Scriptures. He was pointing out how His rejecters were trusting in themselves instead of hearing God’s messengers, which is exactly what you’re doing by reviling us. We are in Christ, sent by God to represent Him, and you don’t “come to us, that you might have life.” As for us speaking of our “doctrine,” He said: “If anyone desires to do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it is of God, or I speak from Myself” (John 7:17 MKJV). The same can be said of us.
“The one hearing you hears Me, and he who despises you despises Me; he who rejects you also rejects Him Who sent Me” (Luke 10:16 MKJV).
Didn’t the Lord send Phillip to the eunuch to expound the Scriptures to him? Didn’t He send the prophets and priests to expound to the people? What good has Scripture reading done you, while discarding what we say? If anything, you’ve only gotten puffed up with knowledge you try to show off now, yet you remain in your sins, countering the very purpose the Scriptures were written for men.
Jesus preached the Scriptures to the people, and the apostles and other ministers taught the people the meaning of the Scriptures. Paul confounded the Jews by demonstrating how Christ was testified of throughout the Scriptures (Acts 9:20-22), and Jesus explained the Scriptures to the disciples all the while He was on earth and to the men on the road to Emmaus, beginning with Moses (Luke 24:27). We also do that.
But no, you fight a one-sided, imbalanced argument, demonstrating your lust to discredit us solely to win argument. Don’t you realize you oppose yourself, Mike, when you oppose us in the Lord? No, you don’t.
Four, we didn’t categorically say, “you don’t know us at all and have had nothing to do with us.” Our statement was quite conditional. What we did say was, “Are we suggesting in any way that you shouldn’t pray and seek the Lord? Do you seriously believe for a moment that we are? If so [that is, if you believe we’re suggesting you shouldn’t pray and seek the Lord] you don’t know us at all and have had nothing to do with us.” Big difference, Mike.
So no, there was no oversight, no assumption, no speculation on our part, and we’re confident the Lord did give us to write you what we’ve written. And you despise it and us in general.
Five, you argue, “Jesus was able to DEMONSTRATE by the SPIRIT, even to sinners, and those sinners were able to discern and/or experience that He was the real deal.”
Plainly, there were sinners who discerned and sinners who didn’t, regardless of what Jesus did. But you argue not for the Truth; you argue to justify yourself. Furthermore, if you’re in a position to preach to us, then why don’t you “demonstrate by the Spirit that you’re the ‘real deal’ (one walking in the Spirit)”?
You quote: “1Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.”
Where is your demonstration of the Spirit and of power? I suppose you think you’re accomplishing that? Really? Are there 2 or 3 witnesses to attest to that? You’re looking to be a spiritual hero, you with your pornography and masturbation, a slave of sin. How so?
Mike, you’re the one who came our way searching for help. God led you to us for your sake. He finally gave you hope where there was none because He led you to the “real deal,” His true servants, and away from religious hucksters. And as you believed us, you experienced a measure of victory, as many have. But now you once more throw it all away, faulting and maligning us? How wise is that?
You, while in bondage to sin, go on to preach to us who serve God about how Jesus proved Himself. He manifest Himself in ways the Father chose, and not as men, or even He Himself, chose. For some He made wine, for some He cast out devils, and for others He did nothing. Where there was faith, as with the woman at the well, He gave prophetically. Where there was utter helplessness, as with the man in the Gadarenes or Lazarus, and the Father gave Him to work a miracle, He did so.
Where there was little or no faith, He marveled at their unbelief and “couldn’t do many works” with them, as in His own home country. It was the Father’s work, and not His own. The Father had His specific purposes for what He led the Son to do. “Without the Father, the Son can do nothing.” But you don’t understand these things or even care to. It’s all about you and you only.
Seven, these aren’t the first examples of where you’ve grossly misconstrued our words. Either you’re careless and not paying the respectful attention you should be, considering the life-and-death importance of our conversations here for your sake, or you’re ornery and not the least interested in the Truth; your main concern is to please yourself, lift your ego, and defend your pride. You’re going to wax spiritual now, with all your Bible knowledge, of which you arrogantly presume we’re ignorant.
If careless and inattentive, you are foolish and irresponsible. If ornery (and you are), you’re worse; you’re a damned fool hell-bent on self-destruction. There’s the possibility you’re mentally handicapped and incapable of understanding. If that were the case, it would only be because of your sins of pride, stubbornness, and self-aggrandizement, not because of an inherent lack of intellectual capacity.
You accuse us of not manifesting the power of God. Where’s your power, Mike? If you’re so spiritual and wise, why do you continue with pornography on your screen instead of The Path of Truth, meanwhile declaring you’re acquainting yourself with Jesus Christ and not a computer screen? Or instead of your porn magazines, why don’t you print out wholesome instruction God has afforded to all to lead them to holiness and freedom in Him?
You know nothing of these things, being a devil yourself. We asked you not to write until you had learned more of us and what we teach. You passed on our request that could have done you great good. However, we asked you that because we expected the kind of response you now give.
Had you red up of what the Lord has given us, you’d have discovered there are others with us who know full well our word has been with power, being His Word, manifest in results beyond our capability to perform. You would have learned that miracles have happened, healing and deliverance have come (even declared in our meetings), visions and prophecies given and fulfilled, the wicked rebuked from above, independently of us (yet on our behalf), devils cast out, and God glorified.
Instead, you’ve chosen to react in arrogance and defense of your wretched state. You choose to learn nothing more, but to rebuke us in all ignorance and stupidity. We say right is might, but as the Muslims, you declare might is right. So then, have at it, Mike; destroy yourself.
We just finished dealing with a devil like you in our midst. This time, we will cut the process short. We know that the words we write at this moment fall on deaf ears that serve a wicked, black heart. However, these words will serve to teach others who are of a humble and repentant heart, walking the best they can in faith, notwithstanding their faults and weaknesses.
You bring up Dena, Mike. She’s still here, by God’s grace, and she has never treated us with arrogance and contempt, as you have. God hasn’t seen fit to cut her off. She appears to have more going for her than you do.
There are those among us who have similar problems as you, but God is gracious to them because they don’t hold Him or us in contempt in the way you do. Theirs isn’t a matter of pride, as with you. He holds them in prison until they have paid the last penny of penalty and then He’ll free them; we have His Word on that. Meanwhile, He permits them to remain and receive correction, knowing the heart. By God’s grace, they remain, but you go.
You, Mike, have some knowledge, but no faith. That’s why you fail. That’s why you put the onus on God and us for your troubles. Yet you preach like you’re the righteous one. Your sexual gratification and vileness are far more important to you than the One you praise in vain with your lips, but Whom you readily malign together with us.
Foul and damned fool you are, Mike. Go your way. We’re done.
Victor Hafichuk