If You Can’t Explain It, You Don’t Know What You’re Talking About
Matt Davis began reading our writings and corresponding with us, which lead to conflict with the church he was attending, particularly his mentor, Tom Burgee, who took it upon himself to expose us for opposing their occultish and idolatrous trinity gods. We gladly responded, once again having the opportunity to shine the light into darkness.
Tom Burgee posts:
Everything you know is wrong! [blog removed]
If I can’t explain it, it doesn’t exist.
What would you do if that was someone’s real stance on things? I would ask if they could explain how the central nervous system works, or how how the brain functions, chances are they couldn’t, and hence be proven wrong. I’ve run across a website, www.pathoftruth.com (warning it’s a heretical site) where the site owner denies the Trinity, the eternity of Hell, and the inerrancy of Scripture. (among other things)
I want to look at their page on the Trinity (title not listed because it’s blasphemous) (link here) to set it up the page is an attack on “GotQuestions.org” a site I’ve not visited often, but have occasionally.
**this is not a comprehensive look at it, just a quick glance
If it is impossible to explain, why try? If impossible to understand, how do they understand and know they are speaking the truth? Are they not in confusion and condemned out of their own mouths as liars from the get-go for trying to convince you of something they say is incomprehensible?
If they don’t understand God, how can you believe what they say about Him? They might answer that you need to take their knowledge “by faith,” but faith is the evidence of things not seen, not speculation or opinion about what is invisible to outward sight. That is anything but evidence.
The author suggests the inability to explain something adequately means it to be untrue. If I can not explain how the sun brings light and warmth to our planet, does that mean it doesn’t exist? or that the sun being hot and big is a lie? absolutely not, we can see clearly that the sun is both big, and hot, and not only that, but also brings light and warmth. So my inadequate explanation in no way destroys the truth that the sun is real. The same is true for Scripture, God is clearly revealed in Scripture in three “persons” NOT THREE GODS!! One God, revealed in three “persons”
Moving On…. I would like you to pay attention as you read the page, at the terminology used, the way the author says stuff, and the attitude in which the entire article is written. A sense of superiority, a sense of “I am right because God told me so”, a sense of being a prophet? Note also as you read how the author switches translations of the bible, to make the verses he’s twisting fit his point. He claims Trinitarians as worshipping “that which they do not know” why? because the things of God have not been revealed to the carnal man, thereby saying Trinitarians are carnal men, and unknown by God. Going onto say “Children of light do know these things…” implying he is one of these children, and that we should listen to him. The the Author quotes John 16:13 as a proof text for the special revelation he’s been given. Keep in mind, in an article AGAINST the Trinity the author quotes (what is in my mind) one of the clearest support texts for the Trinity. Lets look at it.
(13) When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
I want to also include verses 14 & 15 to help prove my point. (which the author of the site didn’t include)
(14) He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (15) All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
the text states that when the Spirit comes He will guide us into all truth also the verse states that He will NOT speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears he will speak… If the Trinity is false, who will tell Him what to say? If the Trinity is wrong.. on whose authority will He speak?! verse 14 states that “He will glorify me…” wouldn’t it say “he will glorify himself” if the Trinity were false? and finally verse 15 “he will take what is mine and declare it to you..” why say “He will take what is mine…” our Lord is certainly intelligent enough to convey a simple sentence. He and Mine and Father clearly show three separate persons of the Trinity (again not three gods!) I have to admit, after reading this passage, and the faulty reasoning behind the authors logic, I came away more encouraged in the doctrine of the Trinity.
The author goes onto mention 1 John 2:2, and 1 John 2:27 as support for his being one of the few (if not the only) with this revelation, going onto finally say that the authors of GotQuestions.org do not have the Spirit of God.. After Much bloviating on GotQuestions, the authors own Spirituality and an improper definition of “Mystery” we get to the next point.
*(quote from “GotQuestions.org”) “The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God…The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods.”
Firstly Just Truth agrees wholeheartedly with this definition. After seeing the clear declaration they do not support three gods, the site author goes on to declare
What twaddle! How are “three Persons” not “three Gods”? Oh yes, we are told this is inexplicable. Well, we will explain how wickedly stupid and wrong such thinking is, because it calls the Lord a liar when He says He is the only One and Singular God, with no God beside Him (Isaiah 45:5,21). Line up three “Persons” – “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit” – and there are Gods beside each other, are there not?
and then puts words in their mouths
According to GotQuestions’ doctrine, there could actually be a fourth God, “the Trinity,” which exists in these three other “Persons.” When any of these three “Persons” speaks, it is the fourth God, the combined “Trinity Personality,” speaking through the individual Person-God. Such confusion!
In the last sentence he creates confusion, only to appear to solve the confusion with his explanation, looks like a cult trick. The pages author gravely misunderstands the word “Person”, assuming it to be an individual. Although the author claims him to be heretical, here’s a great link from CARM.Org that may help explain it. At one point the author says
“Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who believe in Me through their word, that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that You sent Me” (John 17:20-21 HNV).
(Where, by the way, is the Holy Spirit, Who is supposed to be one with the Son and the Father? Why doesn’t the Son mention Him?)
I am amazed at how adept the devil is with using his pawns to twist Scripture out of context. In the previous Chapter our Lord speaks of the Holy Spirit! if we go by the authors logic, since the Lord didn’t mention bananas are we to assume they do not exist?! The author goes onto “prove” God is one, which… well nearly everyone would agree with. God is one.. revealed in Scripture as three persons.
going further the author states
Here is a famous Scripture used by GotQuestions, and Trinitarians everywhere, who cry, “See all three Gods together – proof of the trinity!”
“And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him. And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16-17 MKJV).
I urge you to read his explanation of this passage of Scripture, in essence he doesn’t answer it, because he can’t. It’s once again a clear representation of the three persons of the Godhead. (again, not three Gods!) he does make an attempt to say that this doesn’t show the trinity, but God speaking as He indwells the Son. Obviously this fails when taken in context.
The author goes on to make more attempts at discrediting the biblical doctrine of the Trinity, but fails miserably. Most of it hinging on the word “person”. (again, a misunderstanding of the word on his part) as well as denying the deity of Christ the author makes grave errors in his doctrines.
in short, after much thought I decided to post this on my blog, Just Truth after all is about posting truth, exposing those preaching lies, and making sure the saints are equipped. Though this cult is far from anything, if you, like me find yourself speaking with anyone who denies the Trinity, or espouses any of the heresies seen on www.pathoftruth.com please know how to combat them. some great apologetic sites are CARM, Contender Ministries, and Let Us Reason Ministries. However, nothing beats studying the bible, don’t just know what others say about it, learn it yourself! In two weeks, I had two separate people debate the Trinity with me, both calling me damned because I hold to it. It’s an important topic, learn it. (I am still in the process)
I have to ask though, please be in prayer for this man, AND those he’s led astray – I do not know him, I know his doctrine is that of demons, and no one hearing from God could be this wrong. I must assume while he “hears” something, it’s not God. The purveyors of the site go on to say that Christianity as we know it is wrong, they are the one true light. They name false teachers to be Ray Comfort, (a true man of God), Paul Washer (Seriously?!), Francis Chan, etc… as with any cult, mind control, Scripture twisting, and so on are the rules.
In short, please pray for them, the attack that will no doubt come from this post, and for myself. I encourage your comments.
Tom Burgee wrote:
Just had a bible study – so greatly encouraged in the Biblical Fact of the Trinity. Clearly revealed..
Zachary Bauer wrote:
I’ve heard of the trinity as described as an apple. Its comprised of the core/seeds, the flesh and skin. All parts are apple. I think its a pretty good description.
Tom wrote:
right, I’ve heard government as well, ultimately though every analogy will fall short. My point is the Trinity is clearly, I repeat CLEARLY revealed in Scripture. Whether I can explain it or not makes it no less real.
Paul and Victor wrote:
To Tom:
Tom, Paul Cohen here. I wrote the “blasphemous” article on the trinity, for which I thank God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ for His wisdom and the understanding He has given me by His Holy Spirit. How gloriously does the truth set free all those who love His appearing!
You’re right that we will answer you, and why shouldn’t we, when you have misstated, misinterpreted, and perverted the truth we teach? Have you even considered that you may be wrong? Wouldn’t you like to be corrected, if so? You have no solid Scriptural basis for your vehement denunciation of our teaching, which is even already refuted in the writing you cite.
So why not listen, Tom, and be open to the considerable benefit you could receive, not only by hearing the truth, but by receiving us in Christ as His brethren and servants? You have essentially dismissed us as the servants of Satan, but read our testimonies and you tell us Who has delivered us from our sins and kept us all these years.
Consider that we confess Jesus Christ as Lord of all, by Whose blood and sacrifice we have been forgiven and reconciled to God, raised to new life by His resurrection from the dead, which we have entered by the taking up of His cross. What is your problem with that, unless you have never experienced the same?
And how is it you call my reply, before you have even seen it, “an attack”? Do you deny us a just hearing in response to your assault on our teaching in Christ? Doesn’t your preemptive attack say it all?
“The wicked flee [set up prayer bunkers] when no man pursues; but the righteous are bold as a lion” (Proverbs 28:1 MKJV).
You think to stand on the Scriptures in your defense of the trinity, but you have mistaken the teachings of the “church fathers” for the teachings of the true fathers who wrote the Scriptures. You defend orthodox Christianity, which is based on the diabolical doctrines of the usurping “fathers,” which are in all contradiction to the truth and Lord Jesus Christ.
Not only have you presumed we are wrong, but you have presumed we have nothing to do with God and that what we report from Him is devilish. If we do hear from God (and we do), then you are the one who blasphemes. Something to seriously consider.
You write:
“The author suggests the inability to explain something adequately means it to be untrue. If I can not explain how the sun brings light and warmth to our planet, does that mean it doesn’t exist?”
We suggest nothing of the kind. We don’t deny that God exists simply because you botch your description of Him. That is cockeyed reasoning, putting words in our mouths we have never spoken. What we have said is that if you claim to know God and describe Him in a way that is incomprehensible nonsense and plainly contradicted by the Scriptures, then your description is wrong.
You have given a false depiction of something that does exist, just like the ancient Egyptians did with the sun when they worshipped it as God the Creator. When someone comes along and tells the Egyptians that the sun is a source of light and heat created by God, they are affirming its existence while correcting an erroneous and idolatrous conception. So we do with you and the trinitarians when we declare the true nature and existence of God compared to your idolatrous one.
Propagators of the trinity doctrine conclude (as do you), that no one can really understand it anyway, making jackasses of themselves by exerting so much effort to describe and justify this incomprehensible “three person god” monstrosity. Why do you all waste everyone’s time with your nonsense, Tom, except that it makes you feel accepted, important, and powerful?
You protest that despite your inadequate ability to explain what the trinity actually is, “God is clearly revealed in Scripture in three ‘persons’ NOT THREE GODS!! One God, revealed in three ‘persons’”
If by “persons” you meant three different manifestations or offices, we would agree. But your meaning is the common trinitarian one, that God is actually three discrete entities, each with his own will and hence personage. That is gross error that defies the testimony of God in the Scriptures, not to mention all of His creation, which never reflects any such reality. Three distinct entities that speak individually are three entities, not one.
It’s all silly word games, Tom, which confound people and betray the fact that you don’t know what you are talking about.
It’s just like the old saying (modified to be more exact and acceptable to sensitive ears): “If you can’t inform them with the truth, baffle them with baloney.”
But we have written to let people know that they can know the truth about their Creator – Who He Is, and what He is like. They can be delivered from the horrible confusion and perverse reckonings of the pagan trinity doctrine and other diabolical doctrines of orthodox so-called Christianity, binding mankind in superstition and ignorance.
That was the point I was making with the Scripture you cited from the paper, where Jesus said to those who believe that they would be guided into all truth by His Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. The point is that believers do understand, and those prepared of God to teach others don’t revert to giving people explanations that are nonsense because they don’t understand. As quoted from the paper:
“However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come” (John 16:13 MKJV).
You added the following verses, as if I left those out of the paper because I was afraid to acknowledge such trinity-suggesting words:
“He will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will announce it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and will announce it to you” (John 16:14-15 MKJV).
Now if the Spirit of God comes to us only speaking the Words of Christ, and all that the Father has is Christ’s, then there is only One Voice speaking to us, the Voice of God, through Jesus Christ. There are not, as claimed in the CARM article you cite, three voices (bolding mine):
“God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood.”
Will you crucify the Lord again because He doesn’t speak in such literal terms of heavenly things?
When speaking to the disciples, Jesus made it plain to them that He was returning to the Father, from flesh to Spirit. He wasn’t going to come back to them in His physical body to inhabit them. He was coming back in the Spirit to be with them always, even within them. No longer would they be separate from Him, but would take on His very Nature through His Spirit, in order to be transformed into the sons of God, completed in the invisible God’s image.
We have received God’s Spirit, the Lord Jesus Christ, as have many, Tom. We don’t claim to be the first or only ones, as you foolishly insinuate.
Do you disparage and deny such a great privilege and promise from God, that Christ would inhabit His people and give them His mind? Do we say we are superior to others, including you, or do we say that His mind in us is altogether superior to the carnal mind, which carnal mind is your only source and support in the things of God, a woeful one indeed:
“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be” (Romans 8:6-7 MKJV).
Your arguments and reasonings are carnal. It is true that one can never understand the things of God by his natural faculties, so certainly you can’t teach others of Him by relying on the same. You must be born again by His Spirit, known as the Spirit of God (the Father) or the Spirit of Christ, because He is One and the Same Spirit. When God speaks to us we hear but One Voice.
How many do you hear? Can you tell us whether at any time you are hearing the Father’s or the Son’s or the Holy Spirit’s voice? Can you tell the difference?
But you don’t ever hear His voice, do you? This we know to be true. Why not get honest, humble yourself, and admit it?
All of these things, and more, are in our writings, if you would care to read them with an open mind, forsaking yourself and the false gods that now bind you in darkness and keep you from hearing His Voice. What is so important to you that you would forgo the Fountain of Living Waters, the One True God and Lord Jesus Christ, for your impotent doctrine and religion?
What is the real issue, Tom? Ego? Yes, it is; you want to feel important, and you think that by professing faith in Christ and testifying of Him in the flesh, you’ll have your opportunity to be somebody. Actually, in Christ, the opposite is true. When you’ve been to the cross, you’re no longer alive, much less, important. Tom, you’ve been misled by another gospel.
It is also true that because you don’t know Him Who alone is right, everything you think to know is wrong:
“But if anyone thinks to know anything, he still has known nothing as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he has been known by Him” (1 Corinthians 8:2-3 LITV).
If you were to read our papers on the trinity, filled with Scripture, Scripture that clearly refutes things you say in this article against us, you would not be able to speak so presumptuously. You would be ashamed to do so. But in your arrogance, you refuse to read what we have to say. Your confidence is folly.
There are other errors in your condemnation of us that we haven’t addressed. For now, what we have addressed, in our judgment, is sufficient. Call it an attack, if you will. By its very nature, truth always threatens those who don’t know it.
Tom, either know what you are saying or treasure up wrath for yourself unto the day of wrath, as you do by speaking in ignorance, passing on doctrines of men. These are no light matters; they are matters of life and death, and you flirt with death.
Victor Hafichuk
Phillip Nicewaner wrote:
I am reminded of the old story of Augustine, who was said to have been walking along a seaside, contemplating on the unity of the Trinity, when he came across a small boy digging a hole in the beach. He looked to the boy and said, “Child, what are you doing?” After which the boy explains that he was going to empty the ocean into the hole. Augustine corrected him, saying that it is impossible for the ocean to be emptied into the hole, to which the boy is said to have responded that it would be far easier than to understand the Trinity.
Phillip Nicewaner wrote:
“Propagators of the trinity doctrine conclude (as do you), that no one can really understand it anyway, making jackasses of themselves by exerting so much effort to describe and justify this incomprehensible ‘three person god’ monstrosity. Why do you all waste everyone’s time with your nonsense, Tom, except that it makes you feel accepted, important, and powerful?”
Not possessing a comprehensive understanding of a particular does not preclude the possibility of explaining anything about it, nor does it eliminate the particular’s relevance. Very simply, we know there is one God (Is. 44:6; 46:9) and that God has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Mt 18:14; Jn 1:1-2; Acts 5:3-4). All three are identified as God, but there is only one God. John 1:1-2 shows both the distinction between the Word [Jesus (Jn 1:14, “The Word became flesh”)] and God as well as the unity between the two as God. While there are a multitude of verses worth mentioning in this, I will depart from this point with Revelation 1:17. In this verse, we read Jesus identifying Himself as the only God, though we know from the Gospel that Jesus was baptized, after which the Spirit descended upon Him like a dove, and the Father said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” (Mt 3:13-17).
“But your meaning is the common trinitarian one, that God is actually three discrete entities, each with his own will and hence personage.”
I have to argue the terms and definitions being used here. Studies in semantics and varying levels of abstraction taught me much about the irrelevance of language and particular definitions of their respective words, but with respect to the way we understand English in its current form, you misrepresent the position. The “persons” of the Trinity are indeed distinct, but possess the single will. “Personage” does not demand a distinct will, but the distinction regarding persons is identifiable by way of identity itself. We can identify the Father, for example, as the One who knows the day and the hour (Mt 24:36) and the Son as the ransom for many (Mk 10:45) and the Holy Spirit as the seal of our salvation (Eph 1:13; 4:30). These are just examples, of course, and not a comprehensive list for you.
If you wish to discuss context with me, I am more than willing. I tell you this, though: you are wrong in your assessment of the qualities of God and underestimate the things that are still a mystery to us.
Soli Deo Gloria
rcadow wrote:
If the Holy Spirit is not a person, then how int the world did He go into Mary and she conceived God’s very seed in her womb? And at the moment of conception she conceived in her womb the physical being of The Son of God. Jehovah’s Witnesses refer to the Holy Spirit as an “energy” like a radar or something. Since when can an energy source physically adapt to human biology and place a physical sperm seed into a physical egg? What then, Jesus fathered Himself?
rcadow wrote:
Luke 1:26-35
26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”
29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be.
30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”
35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy— the Son of God.
rcadow wrote:
3 Persons, One God. The Most High (Father) The Holy Spirit, and The Son of God. Hmmmm! Is this that difficult to follow?
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
rcadow wrote:
Genesis 1:26-27 (the name or word God used here is ‘elohiym)
26 Then God (‘Elohym) said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 So God (‘Elohiym) created man in His (‘Elohiym’s) own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Strong’s H430 – ‘elohiym ????????
Transliteration
‘ elohiym
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God
And we too are triune becuse we are created in that image of a triune God.
We have a soul (emotions, charcter, personality, will, life, breath, give or take), spirit (the very breath of God which gives our mortal bodies life) and a body (our physical, biological flesh)
Hebrews 4:12
“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the DIVIONS OF SOUL AND SPIRIT, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
SOUL – Strong’s G5590 – psyche ????
Transliteration
psyche
1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
b) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Strong’s G4151 – pneuma p?e?µa
Transliteration
pneuma
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the “Holy” Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of “Truth”)
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth
And yet, Jesus is also “The Word of God.” And He was in the beginning.
John 1:1-3; 14-15
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15( John bore witness about Him, and cried out, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because He was before me.’”)
Jesus was before He was physically born.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.”
59 So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
And now the CONCLUSION:
1 Corinthians 13:11-13
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Paul Cohen wrote:
To Phillip:
Wow, you’d think trinitarians would be ashamed of such a story, so neatly does it summarize their madness. But it’s by the very same madness that the trinitarian interprets the conviction of his stupidity as the absolute confirmation of the sureness of his theory!
Apparently you haven’t red our writing either, which thoroughly exposes the trinity as anti-Christ nonsense. And one doesn’t need to have a PhD in theology to understand, thank God!
“In that hour Jesus rejoiced in Spirit and said, I thank You, Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the sophisticated and cunning, and have revealed them to babes. Yes, Father, for so it was pleasing before You. All things are delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows Who the Son is except the Father, and Who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him” (Luke 10:21-22 MKJV).
So if you want to answer us, read the writing and address the substance. Otherwise, “If one answers a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him” (Proverbs 18:13 MKJV).
As for answering my posting here, you say:
“We can identify the Father, for example, as the One who knows the day and the hour (Mt 24:36) and the Son as the ransom for many (Mk 10:45) and the Holy Spirit as the seal of our salvation (Eph 1:13; 4:30).”
You’re quite mistaken about the Son not knowing the day and hour, a restriction He only had while in the flesh. He is no longer so straitened, praise God. Jesus Christ knows everything, because He has returned to the Father as Omnipotent God:
“And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth’” (Matthew 28:18 MKJV).
“And I heard as the sound of a great multitude, and as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of strong thunders, saying, ‘Hallelujah! For the Lord God omnipotent reigns!’” (Revelation 19:6 MKJV)
The Son knows when He comes because He is in full control, exercising His authority over all:
“Remember then how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you” (Revelation 3:3 MKJV)
“Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work” (Revelation 22:12 HNV).
As for our ransom, the Father is the One Who gave Himself for us. He says so:
“Yet I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me…. I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, where are your plagues; O Grave, where is your ruin! Repentance shall be hidden from My eyes” (Hosea 13:4, 14 MKJV).
You are confounded by your carnal intellectual approach to the spiritual God. We haven’t “assessed the qualities of God,” we know Him!
Phillip Nicewaner wrote:
“Wow, you’d think trinitarians would be ashamed of such a story, so neatly does it summarize their madness. But it’s also by the very same madness that the trinitarian interprets the conviction of his stupidity as the absolute confirmation of the sureness of his theory!”
So quick to assault the capabilities of one who opposes you! Truth will destroy one’s credibility more than any level of ad hominem attacks (destroying credibility is the reason for such attacks). Perhaps the Scripture, that holy, double-edged sword, is all that is left which will offer the clarity that is needed so deeply here.
“So if you want to answer us, read the writing and address the substance. Otherwise, ‘If one answers a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him’ (Proverbs 18:13 MKJV).”
You are being addressed according to what you have responded with. I do not have to delve into your trove of writings to have a say, nor do I need to spend time there to offer correction. In the short sections, against which I offered correction, my exposure, while limited, was certainly enough. Error is error.
“You are quite mistaken about the Son not knowing the day and hour, a restriction He only had while in the flesh. He is no longer so straitened, praise God. Jesus Christ knows everything, because He has returned to the Father as Omnipotent God:”
You attempted to dismantle my attempt of showing distinction, but missed the point. Each “person” of the Trinity is distinguishably recognizable as God, but there is only one God; this point is further qualified by the last sentence, wherein I write, “These are just examples, of course, and not a comprehensive list for you.”
“You are confounded by your carnal intellectual approach to the spiritual God. We haven’t ‘assessed the qualities of God,’ we know Him!”
I am certainly not confounded by carnal intellect and, what intellect I have, I have because of God’s grace to one as wretched as I am. You use Hosea to explain that it was the Father who gave Himself for us, but you are merely conforming the holy Scripture to your particular belief, which is way too common. The truth contained within the Scripture shows us that “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him” (Jn. 3:16-17). Again, though, I say that we see both distinction and unity in these verses as well.
SDG
Paul and Victor wrote:
To Phillip:
Phillip, no one has assaulted your capabilities. It’s the absurd and diabolical doctrine you promote in the Name of God that’s been exposed by Augustine’s story. You may have the keenest of minds (we’re not arguing that point), but it does you no good whatsoever in knowing the things of God. Haven’t you heard? Your carnal mind is at enmity with Him.
“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God” (Romans 8:6-8 MKJV).
You have mistaken your natural capabilities for godly virtue, and make a fool of yourself.
“A wise one fears and departs from evil, but the fool rages and is sure” (Proverbs 14:16 MKJV).
Diabolical doctrines arise from, and are propagated by, the diabolical, so yes, any proofs of your error are “ad hominen” because “you are the man.” Your pride objects to being exposed because truth has nothing to do with your umbrage and contention. The Scriptures are of no value to you except to support what you believe. You altogether dismiss the Word of God, as you did with the words I quoted from Hosea, accusing them of “conforming to a particular belief,” when they say what they say and you can’t legitimately explain them away.
Because God gave His only begotten Son doesn’t mean He isn’t the Son. When YHWH says there is no Savior beside Him and that He would ransom Israel, it is clear there is but one God and He alone speaks. Only a damned fool would argue with that.
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
“Paul, an apostle (not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, Who raised Him from the dead)” (Galatians 1:1 MKJV).
“Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19 MKJV).
According to you, Paul is right and Jesus is wrong. Your carnal mind cannot reconcile that they are both right, because Jesus Christ was God (the Father) appearing in human form, Who now comes through us, His saints, by His Spirit. God (singular) is a Spirit, and the One Who raised up Christ has also raised us up:
“But if the Spirit of the One Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One Who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit Who dwells in you” (Romans 8:11 MKJV).
And you don’t receive us in Christ because you don’t have a love of Him, the Truth. You have a totally intellectual belief that’s all about “wretched” you, which is anti-Christ. You are antagonistic to God and pompous to men in your so-called knowledge of Him. Knowledge puffs up. But the love of God in Christ gives true wisdom, life, and unity in spirit and truth, all of which you thoroughly lack.
Look at history and see the record of your trinitarian brethren, Phillip. They are persecutors and murderers, like Calvin was with Servetus, and you are no different, a true son of your fathers.
As for answering me without reading the writing that prompted Tom’s initial blog posting, you are simply taking his word for it that there is nothing substantive in the writing that proves the trinity false. That is highly irresponsible and ignorant of you.
Only the bigoted, fearful, and ignorant conduct themselves in such spirit and fashion.
The arguments that you and “rcadow” come up with are already amply answered in the writing you have both cast aside as superfluous. So be it.
To rcadow:
You write, “And we too are triune becuse we are created in that image of a triune God. We have a soul (emotions, charcter, personality, will, life, breath, give or take), spirit (the very breath of God which gives our mortal bodies life) and a body (our physical, biological flesh)”
Here you argue for us, not against us, as you intended out of lack of understanding. We also say that we are as God and He is as we are, for we are made in His image, with perfection to come once the process is complete:
1 John 3:1-3 MKJV
(1) Behold what manner of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God. Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
(3) And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as that One is pure.
But while we are body, soul, and spirit, as is God, we are not three persons. So with God. Three offices, three primary Biblically-attested manifestations (there were and are others), but not three persons.
You boys can bask in the glory of your ignorance and false gods for as long as God permits, but you are now served notice by Him that the time is short. He is done winking at irresponsible and proud, willfully ignorant behavior.
Victor Hafichuk
Phillip Nicewaner wrote:
“Phillip, no one has assaulted your capabilities. It’s the absurd and diabolical doctrine you promote in the Name of God that’s been exposed by Augustine’s story. You may have the keenest of minds (we’re not arguing that point), but it does you no good whatsoever in knowing the things of God. Haven’t you heard? Your carnal mind is at enmity with Him.”
Listen, I am not touting a brilliant or keen mind. Others can do that. My only interest is the truth of God’s Word. Attacks are as fruitless as empty boasts. As for my capabilities, I certainly do not confuse them for “Godly virtue,” but rather providential in that, just as I was given life and, later, salvation through Christ, God has created me with capabilities according to His will. Again, they are not traits which equate to Godly virtue, but traits by virtue of God’s grace.
“Diabolical doctrines arise from, and are propagated by, the diabolical, so yes, any proofs of your error are ‘ad hominen’ because ‘you are the man.’ Your pride objects to being exposed because truth has nothing to do with your umbrage and contention. The Scriptures are of no value to you except to support what you believe. You altogether dismiss the Word of God, as you did with the words I quoted from Hosea, accusing them of ‘conforming to a particular belief,’ when they say what they say and you can’t legitimately explain them away.”
In September of 2005, when I heard the call to submit and surrender to Christ, I had already been exposed to a number of popular theological and eschatological beliefs that were said to be biblical. As I read through the Bible, these foundations, which were taught to me, though I resisted God for most of my life, were shown to be extrapolations from the text which were not accurate or consistent. I am not bound to teachings that cannot stand against the Word and I cannot stand for teachings that go against His Word. Luke records Paul addressing the Bereans, who were written as having noble character because they searched the Scripture daily to ensure that Paul was teaching truthfully (Acts 17:10-15) and James warned that those who teach will be judged far more harshly because of their responsibility to the truth (James 3:1). To say that I am dismissing the Word is a grotesque error and your use of Hosea to argue that the Father was the one who sacrificed Himself was both incorrect and inconsistent.
“Because God gave His only begotten Son doesn’t mean He isn’t the Son. When YHWH says there is no Savior beside Him and that He would ransom Israel, it is clear there is but one God and He alone speaks. Only a damned fool would argue with that.”
I would argue that your use of the distinctive “Father” in your previous response and your use of the distinctive “Son” is inconsistent, also, in the stance that you have taken against the doctrine of the Triune God. This doctrine essentially states that the one God has revealed Himself in three “persons”: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The “how” and/or “why” is what is said to be incomprehensible to us, as in how God exists in such a manner or, rather, why God chose to reveal Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When Jesus was on the earth preaching repentance, was He the Father?
“Who raised Jesus from the dead?”
God.
“According to you, Paul is right and Jesus is wrong. Your carnal mind cannot reconcile that they both are right, because Jesus Christ was God (the Father) appearing in human form, Who now comes through us, His saints, by His Spirit. God (singular) is a Spirit, and the One Who raised up Christ has also raised us up:”
The Gospel contains multiple portions to show distinction between Jesus and the Father. Even in baptism, we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You have not shown by way of Scripture that Jesus was the Father and you mislead in this.
“And you do not receive us in Christ because you don’t have a love of Him, the Truth. You have a totally intellectual belief that’s all about ‘wretched’ you, which is anti-Christ. You are antagonistic to God and pompous to men in your so-called knowledge of Him. Knowledge puffs up. But the love of God in Christ gives true wisdom, life, and unity in spirit and truth, all of which you thoroughly lack.”
Anti-Christ? Not quite. My testimony is a testimony of God’s grace through Christ Jesus to a very wicked sinner. Beyond everything, I am not interested in conversing or debating about myself, but, instead, what the truth is. You are wrong and there is not enough aggressiveness that will blow the smoke from your eyes.
“Look at history and see the record of your trinitarian brethren, Phillip. They are persecutors and murderers, like Calvin was with Servetus, and you are no different, a true son of your fathers.”
This is an absurd argument, both when used by atheists and those who distort the truth. Am I a persecutor? Am I a murderer? True, by my past hatred, I have committed murder, though I have found redemption through Jesus. I would be interested in learning, though, how you can group Calvin and Servetus together. From my understanding, their positions were quite opposite.
“As for answering me without reading the writing that prompted Tom’s initial blog posting, you are simply taking his word for it that there is nothing substantive in the writing that proves the trinity false. That is highly irresponsible and ignorant of you.”
No, I am responding to you directly. You spoke and I retorted. I did not have to read the writings that he wrote of to respond to your response.
“You boys can bask in the glory of your ignorance and false gods for as long as God permits, but you are now served notice by Him that the time is short. He is done winking at irresponsible and proud, willfully ignorant behavior.”
I know Christ and His Spirit reveals the truth of the Scripture.
Paul and Victor wrote:
To Phillip:
Your testimony of yourself and declaration of your intentions mean nothing whatsoever. The heart is deceitful above all things. Your attitude and fruits betray your words. Pious, religious, intellectual frauds of every stripe and color, including Catholic idolater Augustine and murderous bigot Calvin, have testimonies of changed lives along with their selective Scriptural interpretations. But we well know you by the Spirit of God, Who reveals Himself and exposes you to us.
As for Calvin and Servetus, you aren’t paying careful attention – I was not equating them, I was distinguishing between them. Understanding what we say, you will not rightly accuse us of absurd argument. Read The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin.
Concerning the distinctions you try to hold up in the name of your idols, try this one:
“Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the Church of God which He has purchased with His Own blood” (Acts 20:28 MKJV).
“Who raised Jesus from the dead?” we asked, and you reply, “God,” not reading on, where we answered the question. Here is the answer once more:
“Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up” (John 2:19 MKJV).
Of course you will have your explanation or excuse, as you do for all the other Scriptures, because as already noted, the Truth is not your first love or intent.
And that indeed makes you a persecutor and murderer. Shall we rely on corrupt man to tell us the truth about himself? You have no more idea of what you are about than the Jews Jesus spoke to in the Temple:
“Did not Moses give you the Law? And yet not one of you keeps the Law! Why do you seek to kill Me? The crowd answered and said, You have a demon! Who seeks to kill You?” (John 7:19-20 MKJV)
And no more idea than the Jews who believed on Jesus in the following exchange:
John 8:31-59 MKJV
(31) Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed.
(32) And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(33) They answered Him, We are Abraham’s seed and were never in bondage to anyone. How do you say, You will be made free?
(34) Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever practices sin is the slave of sin.
(35) And the slave does not abide in the house forever, but the Son abides forever.
(36) Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
(37) I know that you are Abraham’s seed, but you seek to kill Me because My Word has no place in you.
(38) I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you, then, do what you have seen with your father.
(39) They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.
(40) But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth which I have heard beside God; this Abraham did not do.
(41) You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one father, even God.
(42) Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me.
(43) Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word.
(44) You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
(45) And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me.
(46) Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me?
(47) He who is of God hears God’s Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God.
(48) Then the Jews answered and said to Him, Do we not say well that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?
(49) Jesus answered, I do not have a demon, but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
(50) And I do not seek My own glory, but there is One Who seeks and judges.
(51) Truly, truly, I say to you, If a man keeps My Word, he shall never see death.
(52) Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham and the prophets are dead, and you say, If a man keeps my Word, he shall never taste of death.
(53) Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets are dead; whom do you make yourself?
(54) Jesus answered, If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father Who glorifies Me, of Whom you say that He is your God.
(55) Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word.
(56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.
(57) Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
(58) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!
(59) Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.
A couple of other participants we wish to respond to:
To Zachary Bauer:
You write, “I’ve heard of the trinity as described as an apple. Its comprised of the core/seeds, the flesh and skin. All parts are apple. I think its a pretty good description.”
Trinitarians are exceptionally proud of their foolish rationalizations that defend their pagan indoctrinations. Think! Consider! Pray! Repent! Deny yourself! Foolish ones, where in your illustration are we to find three apples?
To rcadow:
You wrote: “If the Holy Spirit is not a person, then how int the world did He go into Mary and she conceived God’s very seed in her womb? And at the moment of conception she conceived in her womb the physical being of The Son of God. Jehovah’s Witnesses refer to the Holy Spirit as an ‘energy’ like a radar or something. Since when can an energy source physically adapt to human biology and place a physical sperm seed into a physical egg? What then, Jesus fathered Himself?”
Nowhere will you find us speaking of the Spirit of God other than as a person, Who is the Father, Who is the Son. When Jesus spoke to His disciples just before His death, He said:
John 14:1-3 MKJV
(1) Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in Me.
(2) In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.
He did indeed prepare a place, for we are now in that place. He came again, at Pentecost, and received those disciples to Himself, and He has received us to Himself, as well, by giving us His Spirit. Where He is, so we are now, and from that place He prepared for us, we speak.
“And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever, the Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you” (John 14:16-18 MKJV).
And: “A little while and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father” (John 16:16 MKJV).
He did not leave them orphans. He returned. He came to them. He took up residence in them, as promised:
“Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him” (John 14:23 MKJV).
You may argue, “There again we see the Father and Son.” But consider, why is there no mention of the Spirit, Who came at Pentecost and entered the 120? It was the Father, the Son, and the Spirit Who came at Pentecost. That is why Jesus confronted Saul on persecuting Him (Acts 9). Why didn’t He accuse Saul of persecuting the Father or the Spirit? But He did, in that He said, “Why do you persecute Me?” He is the Father and the Spirit. He is One, not three.
“For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6 MKJV).
“Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is not ‘one, yet three,’ but ‘one, period’.”
Then, rcadow, you sarcastically and ignorantly, albeit understandably and logically, ask, “What then, Jesus fathered Himself?” So you tell us it is impossible to understand God and the trinity (based on man’s truly limited reasoning), but then you ridicule for not understanding. Does that make sense?
And to you we reply, “Yes, God, Who is Creator, Who is Jesus Christ, physically introduced Himself to this realm by making Himself a body. Therefore, He fathered Himself by Mary, in the Son.” Yes, Jesus fathered Himself. Is that any stranger intellectually than saying there is one person, no wait, three, but one, yet three… a doctrine you trinitarians call ‘a mystery’ that is impossible to explain or understand, though you give countless illustrations trying?
Muslims ridicule Christians, saying, “God has no son! He didn’t have sex with Mary and give birth to a man!” They are right in that sense, and if you think about it, your sarcastic remark is as foolish as theirs.
When the Scriptures speak of God having a son, they do not speak of having a son as men have sons, by sexual procreation. The expression of God begetting a son reflects the fact that God manifested Himself. What came forth of His expression is “His Son.”
If you could give a body to your words, you could say of your words, “This is my son,” yet your words are you. So it is with God speaking the Word. His Word is an expression of Him; it is His Son, the Word made flesh. “The Word was with God, and the Word WAS God.”
Now consider another matter: How can a son always have been, if begotten, if having a beginning? But Jesus Christ has no beginning or end because He is not a son as we know a son, with a beginning at birth. He was never born; He always was. Therefore, in that sense, He was never a son, as you think of a son; He had no beginning. He was and is God Almighty.
Now what do we do with the words which refer to the Son as the begotten of God? We will tell you. He was begotten in the resurrection, the firstfruits of them risen from the dead:
“This God has fulfilled to us their children, raising up Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son, this day I have begotten You‘” (Acts 13:33 MKJV).
Jesus Christ is in the process of begetting man into His Kingdom, beginning with the Seed falling into the ground, He being the Seed, and bringing up, reproducing, much fruit, many sons, whom He isn’t ashamed to call His brethren.
These things the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t understand and the Muslims don’t understand because He hasn’t revealed Himself to them. We didn’t understand until God gave us His Spirit, receiving us to Himself, having come to us.
These things you don’t understand, because you haven’t received His Spirit, just as Nicodemus didn’t understand the new birth, never having experienced entrance into the Kingdom. One day, by God’s grace only, you will. Until then, you will continue to believe and defend the doctrine of Nimrod and Semiramis, of Baal and Ashtoreth.
This, and much more of Scriptural proof and explanation against the well-entrenched pagan doctrine of the trinity concept and its origin, can be found in our papers, which God has given us and which we now freely give to all, papers you contemn and reject in all your doctrinal and partisan upbringing, arrogance, and presumption. So sure are you of your error, which we also once believed until God opened our hearts to understand and perceive the true testimony of the Scriptures.
This we can tell you: All of Scripture can easily be explained and does testify that God is One, while the pagan doctrine of a trinity brings confusion and conflict. To which one of the persons, for example, do you pray? Which one do you hear speaking to you? Do you know? No. That’s because He’s not speaking to you.
Once more, manifestations or offices are very different from persons. Yes, each is a person, just as a man can be a businessman, a husband, and a father. Each of these is not an individual apart from others in any way. This person is one, not three, though he has three roles or identities. If you wish to call that a trinity, that isn’t quite so bad, except that you muddy the waters for those who are already confounded and disagree.
Perhaps we may seem foolish in debating the trinity. We do recognize the need for one to be born again to understand the things of God. Otherwise, it is entirely impossible. The trinity, however, has become a major god and issue of contention. Men kill for it; Calvin killed many for it; and our lives have been threatened because of our stance against it. What does that tell you?
And you all follow in their steps or walk side by side with them, in like spirit. We have no doubt that if there were no laws in the land preventing you, we would find ourselves at a stake quickly lit with green faggots. On the other hand, we would not consider it our responsibility under Jesus Christ, as rulers, to execute you for what we judged to be heresy on your part. Read The Persecutors and Persecuted.
Our purpose in discussing the subject is not so much to explain or to convince the unconvinced of the inconvincible, though we seem to be doing so; our purpose is to alert people to the fact that they do not know as they assume to know – that their doctrinal foundation and spiritual status isn’t as solid as they suppose.
From there, it is our hope that as we sow those seeds of truth against the error, God will penetrate the rock hard nature of indoctrination and bring light to those bound by chains of error and darkness. Lies do steal, kill, and destroy; this we have known because we have been granted life and freedom by the truth, and so we speak that others may have everlasting life, as well. Freely we have received, freely we give.
Victor Hafichuk
Phillip Nicewaner wrote:
Paul,
I have met your nonsense with Scripture on every substantial level and have marked every inconsistency to date in our correspondence with one another. You make many claims and have twisted the Scripture multiple times to conform the meaning to a point you fully intended to make. I am not burdened by anything beyond the fact that people will pay attention to your hateful and aggressive instruction to condemnation. I leave you with a reminder that those who teach will be judged more harshly than the rest because they bear the responsibility of teaching from God’s Word. Pay heed to this warning.
As surely as Christ is at the right hand of the Father, for as long as He grants me stay in this world, I say that I will stand against falsehood.
Phillip Nicewaner
Gloria in Excelsis Deo
goforthandpreach wrote:
Paul,
In reading your response, noted something very interesting. You start by chastising Tom for not receiving you as a brother because you confess Christ. You imply that despite your drastically different belief, you are still Christians. Then you spend a great deal of time criticizing Tom (and the rest of us who rightly believe in the Trinity), even go so far as to say we making “jackasses” of ourselves. Then you claim our beliefs should be considered heretical because they are based on “the early church fathers” (interestingly, Tom never cited any) and that the original authors should be the only ones considered. But you state we should believe your teachings on the matter, which come almost 2000 years after the fact.
Paul, your are placing yourself in a place of apostolic authorship. You are claiming what you teach should be believed because God is still speaking to you. You claim the ability to declare others heretical, but do not want your own beliefs examined critically. This is hypocrisy of the worst sort. Scripture commands us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. To examine others, but not be willing to have oneself examined is absurd, placing oneself in a position of authority that is not due them.
I know Tom personally, and know he has no problem with a critical examination of his beliefs. He is willing to defend them without name calling and without trying to establish himself in a position of divine authority. Can the same be said of you?
Bob Schembre wrote:
Paul and Victor. You are deluded narcissistic psychopaths. Don’t you see that? You think everyone is wrong except you. You believe that God has given you some special insight. You are no different than Jim Jones or any of the other psychopaths leading people to destruction and ultimately you may very well hatch up some diabolical plan to kill all of your followers before the end.
Tom wrote:
Paul, and Victor.
I have hesitated to respond because I’ve seen your attitude in your responses, and watched how they’ve quickly deteriorated into name calling, and belittlement.
gentleman, if I could be blunt. The trinity is so plainly revealed in Scripture the fact that you do not see it shows me, and others, that you not only do NOT have the spirit of God leading you,but that you’re blinded to the truth. We see the pharisees couldn’t see the truth of Christ because they were blinded by tradition, by their own lusts and greed, and mainly because they were not God’s children. The spirit had not revealed to them the truth that is in Christ. The same is true here, while you have a knowledge of the bible, you are wrong. it is not revealed to you via the spirit, but the devil. He comes as an angel of light, and you’ve fell to his deception. How do I know this and state this? not because I claim something that I am not (a prophet, or apostle as you claim) but because God is the same, forever. One God revealed clearly in three persons, yet, you claim He’s different from what is clearly revealed in Scripture (one God in three modes) . This knowledge you say comes from personal revelation from God. How is this different from Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copeland, who claim the same divine revelation? You say God reveals the truth to you, so does Benny Hinn, then he says Adam walked on the moon! You claim divine revelation, yet you do not worship the God of the bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You’re god is powerless, and weak, you’re god leads you to attack with the goal of “winning”, not to debate with the goal of discovering truth. You, like the others, claim to be pursuing truth, yet depend not only on the Bible (God’s infallible word) but also on your ‘FEELINGS’ (what you interpret as God’s spirit), or worse communication with demons.
I know that neither I nor will anyone else except the true Spirit show you you’re error. You have and will deceive others, who are seeking to please themselves and not God. I echo Phillips warning, examine yourself. You set yourself up as a teacher, you mislead people, and you set yourself up as Christ. You say no one knows God but those who have the spirit, and that you’re the only ones with the spirit, hence you’re the only ones on the whole planet we can trust. How powerless a god you worship that he only has a Canadian farmer and a few others as his children in all the world. How weak he must be to have lost everything after the apostles, until you. Mormonism says nearly the same thing Victor and Paul, that God is weak and powerless and needed Joseph Smith…. God doesn’t need you two. or me. or anyone else.
Gentleman, I also agree with Bob, your deluded. you’ve been mislead by the enemy. As I told Matt recently, I shake the dust off my feet with you, you’re false teachers, and pawns of Satan.
You preach another gospel, and as Paul, I say you should be anathema (eternally cursed) (Gal 1:8&9)
Paul and Victor wrote:
To Phillip:
Only in your head, Phillip, have you met our Scriptures and reasoning with substance, and maybe not even there. You are a liar and, at this point, only willful denial can separate you from consciousness of the fact.
The record speaks for itself. The issue isn’t how other people assess our conversation on the matter. For you it is, because you seek the praise of men. To the saints of God, our praise comes from Him alone. Those for the truth will see, and those for error won’t.
One man summed it up well:
“No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity…. Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands of martyrs….
The Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such person, gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck.” — Thomas Jefferson: Letter to James Smith, Dec. 8, 1822
By the shipwreck of your reckoning, Phillip, the mob that crucified the Lord of glory holds sway. Jesus trampled on the gods of the religious, prophesied the destruction of the Temple, and was designated the villain just as you try to do with us. It won’t work, because the Lord hasn’t come to be crucified again, but to put away the independent workers of wickedness with their God-denying blasphemies. We stand at the right hand of the Father – you are finished, Satan!
Glory to God indeed!
Victor Hafichuk
When Paul e-mailed the above response to the blog participants, Zachary responded, prompting another string of correspondence. Click HERE to read it. Meanwhile, the blog continued, though Paul and Victor’s replies were no longer accepted. Those replies have been added in below.
mattsdavis wrote:
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; Isaiah 11:2
[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17
Tom wrote:
Matt – does this mean that Victor and Paul have this Spirit? absolutely not, Mary Baker Eddy claimed to be the lady in revelation, just because they claim to be something, or have something doesn’t mean they do. you quote John 14:17 Paul and Victor (and you) can not receive this Spirit, because you’re of the world. Again, the god they reveal is vastly different from the God of the bible.
mattsdavis wrote:
Absolutely they do Tom. And while i was once like you and ignored what they teach as heresy, The Lord opened my ears to the Truth. He answered my prayer to end the confusion. You dont know God Tom. You know a falsified version of him. I dont fully know him yet either, but am learning and obeying. Paul and Victor are not of the world, they have been crucified with Christ, they are dead to themselves and Christ lives through them.
Ive asked before, without answer, and ill ask again.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT. Matthew 7:13-14
Now Tom, how can you tell me you are on the narrow path? How are you and the millions who share your beliefs the FEW that find it?
Tom wrote:
do you seriously think that everyone who names the name of Christ is a Christian? hardly so! there are millions who scarcely crack a bible, yet name His name. Few there be that find it, some will work for it, some will study for it, some will follow false teachers for it (as you do), but few there are who find it, few there are who have the faith of Abraham. you place your faith in a man because he has few followers?!? wow….
I have no fear Matt, while you say you worship the God of the bible, you do not. the god you worship is much different from the one revealed in the Word. your gods hell isn’t eternal, the true God’s hell is. your god needed to create man, the God of the Bible needs nothing. your god is nonexistent, much like the gods of pharaoh, they believed wholeheartedly, yet…. none existed.
Phillip Nicewaner wrote:
“Now Tom, how can you tell me you are on the narrow path? How are you and the millions who share your beliefs the FEW that find it?”
This verse you use is not simply stating that there is only going to be a small group, but that, by comparison, the followers of Christ will be of a far smaller number than the rest of the world. Consider the days of Pentecost: Peter addressed the crowd and preached the Evangel to them, after which about three-thousand were added to the church. The fact that the numbers of the Christian church is quite high is not proof against it.
mattsdavis wrote:
“How powerless a god you worship that he only has a Canadian farmer and a few others as his children in all the world.”
These words are wicked Tom! Unbelievably so. How powerless was the God of Noah who only had one man and his family? How powerless was the God of Moses? An old man and his old brother, Aaron. Where were the millions to take Noahs side? Where were the millions backing up Moses and Aaron? Watch your words Tom
Tom wrote:
yet noah and his family preached the gospel, and God did a great work, proving He was the great “I AM” – in Moses he had a people, he heard there call, and sent them Moses and Aaron.
Tom wrote:
actually let’s to this.. Matt, Paul, and Victor…. how does one get to heaven… according to you? please keep your name calling, bloviations, etc to yourself and just answer…. how do I get to heaven?
Paul tried to post the following, in response to Tom’s question above. Tom didn’t approve the posting…
Here you go, Tom, here’s how one enters the Kingdom of Heaven, not just according to us, but according to the Word of God –
…so the conversation continued….
mattsdavis wrote:
ive asked before, without answer, and ill ask again.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT. Matthew 7:13-14
Now Tom, how can you tell me you are on the narrow path? How are you and the millions who share your beliefs the FEW that find it?
mattsdavis wrote:
“in Moses he had a people, he heard there call, and sent them Moses and Aaron.”
Just as he has heard my call, he has sent me Paul and Victor.
Tom wrote:
how do you figure? when the god they preach is so vastly different from the one presented in Scripture? I give it to God, only he can show you the truth, can you answer the question about the gospel? how does one get to heaven?
mattsdavis wrote:
How to get to heaven?
John 8:32 Then you will know the truth and the truth shall set you free!
Praise God Almighty! Thank you Lord for your Grace and Mercy! Thank You Lord for the Truth!
Tom, I am saddened at your words knowing that you speak to the only one and true God. You dont know it, but as you do know, it wont matter on judgement day. Not to worry, all things will be reconciled to him according to his will. Praise The Lord that he is not as powerless and ineffective as you teach!
Tom wrote:
Matt – you have no clue what the gospel is. and no need to be saddened, you do not worship the God of the bible, you’ve broken the 1st and 2nd commandment, by creating a god to suit your needs, wants, and desires. You’ve made a god in your mind, and twisted scripture out of context to make him real (to you). but he is as non-existant as Baal.
mattsdavis wrote:
The God they teach is not vastly different than the one in the scriptures. In fact they are one and the same! It is your understanding of the scriptures that is vastly different. The truth is there for whom God gives grace to for him to recieve it. As the Word says God will send them a Strong Delusion. Tom and Friends, You share this great delusion.
Tom wrote:
While I think we’ve seen they are not the same, I wish you farewell Matt.. Only God can save you, you’ve heard the truth several times in the past.
goforthandpreach wrote:
Wow! What tragedy this is! To see someone so convinced by men that they are the ones who have it right and 2000 years of serious historical, biblical scholarship have it wrong is saddening. To watch someone willingly led astray by the twisting and mangling of God’s word is beyond tragic. And to answer your question Matt, those on the broad path include the myriad of false teachers (and followers) who claim their perversion of scripture is the right way. The massive numbers if heretical, false teaching, feel good and/or post-modern, everyone’son the same path “believers” far outnumber those who have truly repented and believe in the true Jesus Christ. There may be millions of us, true, but there are countless more who follow a false “christ” in one form or another. The true test is not who has less followers, but who is following the true Jesus Christ.
Tom wrote:
Brother – these men deny Scripture, saying it’s flawed, and that only by them (and the revelation given to them) can you understand it. they are heretics of the worse sort, they take what God says, and trick the weak minded into listening to them, and not trusting the Word of God. They are demon controlled, oppressed, and quite possibly possessed.
mattsdavis wrote:
Remember when the pharisees said the same about Jesus being posessed? His truth must have been a bit different than what was commonly preached by the religous of that time.
Tom wrote:
Matt – your deluded if you see what your leaders teach as being ANYWHERE near what Christ taught. ANY teacher that says you can’t trust the Bible, but you CAN trust me is wrong. The Bible is the plumb line for truth. You all yell and scream about man’s interpretation, yet you’re blinded to the fact that your all subject to the whims and fancy of Victor and Paul. They twist Scripture to fit what they THINK it means. yet, they’ve been nothing but wrong!! You’re a blinded man, unwillingly to see the truth as it’s plainly presented. An lover of demonic doctrines, and a pawn as well.
You will see Matt, that hell is real, and eternal. Your demonic teachers couldn’t be more wrong on their understanding of Scripture! You’re heading for a fiery pit, where the worm never dies, and you DONT CARE! these men’s doctrine reached you at a time when you misinterpreted it as an answer to prayer, and have embraced it wholeheartedly without considering that they could be wrong. You listen as they twist scripture to fit, and aren’t astute enough to see otherwise, the Spirit wont reveal the truth because you’re not His, you’re lost Matt, as are the rest of you. You see our rebuke as a sign that your saved, but I assure you, you are rejecting doctrines of the Bible, doctrines of Christianity, and God himself by your adherence to that which you cling.
Does the fact that people accused Jesus of being possessed mean that you’re teachers are not?! The strong rebuke and exhortations should be STRONG reason to examine yourselves!! Do you think any Christian worth his weight that you’ve spoken to hasn’t stopped and thought “what if?” – But you all haven’t… because you don’t seek truth, you seek man. The bible has shown us, Christianity to be true… and you and yours to be liars, monsters, and heretics.
mattsdavis wrote:
Tom, they never said you cant trust the bible, you are putting words in their mouths. You dont care to know what they actually said because you are right and dont need any correction. I have stopped and asked”what if”, several times. What i have found has put an end to confusion. What they say makes sense, what you say doesnt. God is not the author of confusion, satan is. If i am following satan, where did the confusion go? Why would satan cause me to quit smoking cigarettes? Why would satan give me faith? Why would satan deliver a job to me, and remove my laziness so i could keep that job? Why was that job delivered to me after i recieved faith to believe?
Again i say that Paul nor Victor ever said you cant trust the bible but you can trust them. Where did you come up with this?
Tom wrote:
they state you can not trust the bible, they have several teachings saying the book of Luke is corrupted, as well as Matthew and I believe others. this alone is heresy! dude, what Joel osteen says makes sense to those in his congregation, what Benny hinn says makes sense to those who follow him, what Antoine LeVeau (Satanic Preist) said made sense to the people who followed him… I mean come on.
again I say your false teachers have SEVERAL pages on how the bible can’t be trusted…
mattsdavis wrote:
And also i know they were delivered to me as an answer of my prayers.
Does the bible not say seek me with all you heart and you will find me? Does it also not say that When you look for him he will make himself known to me. Are you trying to say that God answered my prayers with a stone instead of bread? My God would not do that, the God of the bible.
Tom wrote:
You do not worship the God of the Bible. it’s evident. the God of the bible is clearly revealed as different than you’re learning, and being taught by http://www.pathoftruth.com
mattsdavis wrote:
“You all yell and scream about man’s interpretation, yet you’re blinded to the fact that your all subject to the whims and fancy of Victor and Paul.”
Tom, i can assure you that is not true. God graced me with faith to believe and hear his word when He sent it to me. I dont believe these two men, i believe the One behind and in these two men.
Tom wrote:
no comment, your to blind to see it.
michele18045 wrote:
Gentlemen,
As sad and pathetic as it is….the old saying is true…you can lead a horse to water (even living water) but you cant make him drink. Matt has blatantly chosen not the heed the warnings against the wolves. He has heard the Gospel repeatedly and obviously refuses to search the Word for himself. He has made it abundantly clear that he is not interested in finding living water or drinking it. He is happy with the lie of satan and those that deliver it….this horse has been led to water and refuses to drink. I say be done with him, but pray for his salvation as it is very apparent that he is lost in sin and false doctrine and is perfectly happy to stay there. You are wasting your time on him with the talking…he needs prayer. Shake the dust off and move on. He might know scripture but so does satan and his demons, knowing scripture doesnt mean anything if you don’t know the One who wrote it. I think it is very clear that he does NOT. Pray for Matt, but back and forth with the comments isnt getting anywhere. As for Paul and Victor, wow, I almost feel sorry for them come judgement day…for far greater will their ETERNAL torment be than for most because those who teach and lead astray will be judge much more harshly.
mattsdavis wrote:
https://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/kjv.htm
Tom wrote:
Uh…not sure why you posted this? Just curious though, if I don’t believe any of their other teachings, why would this (for whatever reason you posted it) change my mind??
Tom wrote:
Being accused of not posting other comments, I am on vacation and when I can devote the proper time to respond to heretics and theirs lies I will. Thanks.
Paul and Victor’s last comment, not posted in the blog, so we make it available here:
To Tom Burgee:
Truly, Tom, you have done nothing but vent vitriol here. You haven’t answered a single thing we have said, yet you claim we are demonic imposters who deny the Holy Scriptures. Nowhere have we ever said or taught that one can’t trust the essential truth of the Word of God. We continually and effectively preach the same, and you, in your criminal negligence, neglect the Scriptures we cite demonstrating your error.
The Pharisees also thought they honored the Scriptures, even worshipping them, as do you, yet dishonoring the One of Whom the Scriptures testify, as do you.
Thus is your hypocrisy exposed. The charge you make against us applies to you. You are the one who defies the Word of God, and are similarly guilty of all your charges against us.
We have said that men without the Spirit of God can’t translate the Scriptures without error, even with the most sincere intentions, not to mention that some have corrupt self-serving agendas. Is this not true?
We also acknowledge that some have tampered with the Scriptures, adding things that don’t belong there. Such incidents are few, and most are well known and are documented to be additions by manuscript histories.
But what are facts and the truth to someone with a self-serving agenda? You don’t contest what we prove, lest by even mentioning the proof you expose yourself to any light. You can’t handle the truth. Your only response and hope is that by hiding your eyes, plugging your ears, stomping your feet, and protesting loudly enough, your belief that you are right and that you have favor with God will somehow magically come true.
Your behavior and attitude are in all ungodliness, shaming the Name of Christ.
You compare us to Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland, because you deem us to have the same belief about God being One (we don’t, but we will allow that we do for the sake of your argument). That is an illogical, disingenuous, and evil comparison. Many people share a belief that is true, but that doesn’t make those individuals of one mind and spirit. Both of us profess that Jesus Christ is Lord, for example, and obviously (obvious to those in the light) we are not worshipping the same God.
And where did we ever speak of relying on our feelings? Where did we ever say we are the only ones with God’s Spirit? Where did we ever say we are the only servants of God since the time of Christ and His apostles? Do you not lie constantly, Tom, offering no substance whatsoever for your false accusations? Whether you are ignorant and careless, not bothering to hear us out at our site, or deliberately deceptive, you are a liar, an exemplary son of the accuser of the brethren of Jesus Christ.
So our God is powerless, is He? You would like to believe so, but you also have doubts about where you stand, because you aren’t on solid ground, the Rock of Ages. How can you be secure while reviling and blaspheming Him? If you were secure in the faith of Christ, you could answer us, and would do so respectfully. But like a true son of the Pharisees, those the Lord identified as serpents, your true nature and status can’t be concealed. There is nothing hid that won’t be made manifest, and your fall will be public, manifest to many. They will see whose god is powerless, and whose God is Almighty.
We reply not because we have any hope of your listening. You are given over to destruction because you have no use for the Truth, Who sends us to speak. We reply and declare His judgments for judgment’s sake and the sakes of those who will hear. Your judgment is sealed.
God doesn’t need any person, it is true, but we all need Him and you need us, because He has made His abode in us and we are here presenting Him to you. You have seen and hated both us and our Lord God, Jesus Christ. He has come to your shame and condemnation in the flesh, not to your joy and freedom in the Spirit, as He does for others like Matt:
“For we are to God a sweet savor of Christ, in those being saved, and in those being lost; to the one we are the savor of death to death, and to the other we are the savor of life to life. And who is sufficient for these things?” (2 Corinthians 2:15-16 MKJV)
“And they shall teach My people to discern between the holy and common, and between the unclean and the clean. And in a dispute they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments. And they shall keep My Laws and My statutes in all My assemblies, and they shall keep My sabbaths holy” (Ezekiel 44:23-24 MKJV).
To Matt Davis, you reveal yourself as usual, saying, “you place your faith in a man because he has few followers?!? wow….”
I see Matt not placing faith in us or our numbers, many or few, thankfully, but in God, where we have squarely pointed him. Again, you falsely accuse and foolishly attack in all ignorance. But, Satan, you are done for, defeated. God has given Matt a gift you can’t overpower, the true faith in Him and not in doctrine and men, as with you, who accuse Matt of the very things you are guilty of yourself.
Again, to Matt you say, “Matt – you have no clue what the gospel is, and no need to be saddened, you do not worship the god of the bible, you’ve broken the 1st and 2nd commandment, by creating a god to suit your needs, wants, and desires. You’ve made a god in your mind, and twisted scripture out of context to make him real (to you). but he is as non-existant as Baal.”
That is all your judgment and opinion, Tom; no substance, only hollow words out of a personal, selfish perspective. It is the carnal man speaking, the prince of darkness, manifestly showing that darkness can only exist without light. You are an empty, light, and vain fellow. And that is because while you tell Matt he has no clue what the Gospel is, you do have a clue… but of a false one you presume to be the true. You are guilty of the very things you accuse Matt.
You do worship Baal in yourself, and now a babe in Christ answers you with reasonable words, while all you can do is denounce him in your spiritual poverty.
You challenged us, saying, “actually let’s to this.. Matt, Pau, and Victor…. How does one get to heaven… according to you? please keep your name calling, bloviations, etc to yourself and just answer…. how do I get to heaven?”
We have given you a reply and now you refuse to receive our answer without reading it? How so, Tom? Here it is again: How One Is Saved.
To goforthandpreach:
We have proven the trinity isn’t taught in the Scriptures, so if you people think you didn’t get it from the “church fathers,” who inherited it from their pagan fathers and taught it as Biblical, that’s not really of concern to us. It’s still false and devilish all the same, particularly inasmuch as it parades itself in the Name of God and Christ.
You err; our teachings are not new at all. They are in agreement with the teachings of the true fathers of the faith of the One True God, going back to Abraham (and before), who heard from and saw God. And he didn’t hear three voices, or see three gods.
Thomas Jefferson has been gone for a while now. He also had no pity for trinitarians. Was he stupid? Was he a heretic? None of you makes any mention of the quote we posted from him. Why not?
The super-hypnotic powers of religious indoctrination and delusion are astounding. When God says “strong delusion” (2 Thessalonians 2:11), He means strong! You say we don’t want our beliefs examined?! We have only laid them out here in some detail, urged the irresponsible to read our writing that goes into yet greater detail, and not a single critic on this blog has done so or has answered one solitary point – not one! And you condemn us on the basis that we don’t want our beliefs examined?!! That might be the most amazing denial of reality I have ever heard, and I have heard many amazing ones.
You can be either very proud or very ashamed of yourself; take your pick. But can a fool choose wisely?
And who is this bold person that so brashly defies reality? An anonymous poster with an anonymous blog. You, “goforthandpreach,” are a spiritual prig posing as modest in his conceit and craven cowardice.
You speak ever so boldly from behind a wall, saying, in all ignorance of God and His people, “Paul, your are placing yourself in a place of apostolic authorship. You are claiming what you teach should be believed because God is still speaking to you.”
Because He speaks to us, we claim “apostolic authorship”? “Still” speaking to you? What, you don’t believe God talks to His people anymore? He’s like a monk in a monastery on a 2,000-year vow of silence? Jesus said His sheep hear (not read) His voice, and not because they are apostles, prophets, or any of the other ministries. They are alive in Him! They hear Him and He hears them! But those not His are beastly, the Kingdom of Heaven being foreign to them:
2 Peter 2:12-13 GNB
(12) But these people act by instinct, like wild animals born to be captured and killed; they attack with insults anything they do not understand. They will be destroyed like wild animals,
(13) and they will be paid with suffering for the suffering they have caused. Pleasure for them is to do anything in broad daylight that will satisfy their bodily appetites; they are a shame and a disgrace as they join you in your meals, all the while enjoying their deceitful ways!
But if you think we should not expect to be believed just because God speaks these things to us (which He does), then you are even worse off than we allow if you don’t believe He speaks to His own people any longer.
On whose authority did Tom come attacking us? Who appointed him to be our accuser and judge? Who appointed you? Did God? We know He hasn’t. You even admit as much! So how are your opinions valid in judging spiritual matters? Since when was any person capable of doing that, without the presence and anointing of the Lord?
You are right about one thing: The test isn’t who has the smallest numbers, but who is following the Lord Jesus Christ. Not that Matt was suggesting we are right because we are small in number. He was saying that the Lord has answered his prayers, delivered him from sin, and removed from him, within and without, the overbearing and confounding religious babble that is your specialty. And he found this deliverance nowhere in the religious world he has known most of his life, such as among those on this blog representing nominal Christianity. The Lord brought it through us, the few and despised on the outside.
But not one of you cares whether a sinner like Matt repents and finds deliverance, rejoicing in his Lord and Savior. You preach entirely out of self-aggrandizement. Your public prayers and sermons are the Pharisaical phylacteries of old. Yet while all of you condemn and complain, there is great rejoicing in Heaven over the one who repents, which tells us where you are at presently.
You say, “I know Tom personally, and know he has no problem with a critical examination of his beliefs. He is willing to defend them without name calling and without trying to establish himself in a position of divine authority. Can the same be said of you?”
If he is willing to defend his beliefs, why doesn’t he do so substantively? Defending and being defensive are two entirely different things. And why doesn’t Tom give substance to show us where we are wrong, instead of categorically condemning us? We think he has big time problems – no foundation, for starters. And you are no different.
As for authority, Tom has none, but if he were a true son of God, he would have it; it comes with sonship. We needn’t try to “establish” authority because we have it. Your problem is that you don’t like it. None of you is a child of God. There is a black and white difference between “accepting” Christ and “receiving” Him. You have religion, you have doctrine, you have man’s carnal thinking, but you don’t have His Spirit; you are none of His, and we are here to tell you so. You are anti-Christ.
To Bob Schembre:
So we have a spiritual psychologist and know-it-all here, one who is foolhardy enough to make a condemnatory diagnosis without a clue or prescription. You tell us to deny our understanding and relationship with God, but based on what, your opinion? Why would we do that? With what wisdom do you supersede His counsel? Show us, Bob.
And what parallel do you see between us and Jim Jones? Give us the specifics. Saying we think everyone is wrong doesn’t mean anything. Were Noah, Lot, Moses, Abraham, and Elijah like Jim Jones because they were alone in their day?
Besides, everyone is in wrongness, except God and those walking in the Spirit, being regenerated, those in whom He dwells and reigns. You didn’t know that because you don’t know the Only One Who is Right.
“Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; as it is written, That You might be justified in Your sayings, and will overcome when You are judged” (Romans 3:4 MKJV).
With your wild and baseless accusations, you judge and condemn. You are the one any reasonable person would expect to see coming down the street with his gun or pitchfork, going after the “heretics,” gathering fuel for the bonfire that will “send them to Hell” for an endless amount of the same (or so you hope).
You are a liar and murderer, in whom there is no eternal life. You have never known the Lord Jesus Christ and are in great need of righteous judgment, which is now here, though none of you knows the time of their visitation.
You desire to destroy us for God’s sake any way you can:
“But an hour is coming that everyone who kills you will think that he bears God service” (John 16:2 MKJV).
But we come to destroy you by speaking His Word and leaving you in His hands:
“Behold! I have this day set you over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant” (Jeremiah 1:10 MKJV).
To Phillip Nicewaner:
You are right; even if everyone else were converted, you would still be wrong.
“I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and I will rejoice in My people; and the voice of weeping will no more be heard in her, nor the voice of crying be heard in her. There will not be an infant, nor an old man that has not filled his days. For the child will die a hundred years old; but the sinner who is a hundred years old will be despised” (Isaiah 65:19-20 MKJV).
To Michele:
What water has been offered here to Matt or to us? Whatever any of you have offered has been urine – unpotable and toxic waste, coming from your embittered and corrupt hearts. You sound like Calvin, “I say be done with him.” Thank God you aren’t in charge! Your call for prayer for us is a vain and hypocritical one, is it not, Michele? Have you prayed for us since you spoke those words and “dusted your shoes”? Be honest, if you can (and you can’t, not without God’s saving grace, which, plainly, you haven’t experienced).
While Matt testifies of the sins he’s been delivered of, you testify of the ones you still commit.
And yes, strong delusion will have you saying that things are “very clear” to you. So are all those delivered over to their chosen errors likewise confident and convinced! Brute beasts are you all, appointed for destruction, even as Peter and Jude have prophesied:
“Yet these men are abusive in matters of which they know nothing, and in things which, like the brutes, they understand instinctively–in all these they corrupt themselves” (Jude 1:10 WNT).
What a foolish and blackened heart you have, which says, “I almost feel sorry for them come judgement day… for far greater will their ETERNAL torment be than for most because those who teach and lead astray will be judge much more harshly.”
“Almost feel sorry,” but not quite. In fact, you’re licking your chops in hope of our suffering, aren’t you? Admit it. And how can there be greater judgment if all sinners are sent off into ETERNAL flames of fire? Would there be any reasonable purpose to mitigate the flames for anyone, seeing they are so deserving of them and will never escape? How horribly you desecrate the Holy Name and Character of God by attributing your unquenchable and merciless hatred to Him!
When the Holy Spirit came on the disciples at Pentecost, every man could hear them praising God in their own language, but the empty wind generated here by Tom and his associates is full of cursing and bitterness. Instead of hearing of the glory of God, those who witness hear His Name being blasphemed. But thank God, they also hear His Name being praised by the preaching of the true God, a work of grace in those who know and love Him. We rejoice at having the unspeakable privilege of being identified with Him in and against a religious, corrupt world.
It is such as you that are responsible for the downfall of America, with all its problems. In Mystery, the false church and religion, was found the blood of the saints and prophets and all those slain from the foundation of the world.
How tragic! How devastating is the trouble that now lands on America, and is in full progress! And we tell you that unless you all repent, none of you will be spared, not you, not your companions, not your followers, not your families, not Ray Comfort, not any that believe, think, speak, and act as do you all. You have taken upon yourselves His Name in vain for your own selfish purposes. He can no longer countenance it.
Victor Hafichuk