Sara (Witness) came on Tentmaker Forum after Paul was kicked off, and she questioned the participants about excluding the author of the writing they were debating.
Martin, a Tentmaker moderator, gave his version of defense for this decision, which Sara answered as follows:
Martin, how can you assume Tentmaker’s ministry is rooted in Christ just because you hold certain doctrines? Doesn’t the Lord judge the hearts, and not only what the lips say?
"This people draws nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:8-9).
And doesn’t He send His people to do that work?
"Most certainly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives Me; and he who receives Me, receives Him Who sent Me" (John 13:20 HNV).
I don’t understand how you can say you haven’t forbidden anyone from preaching Christ and Him crucified. What Paul described in those verses is how Paul C. came to you – "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power."
You say no tit-for-tat silliness is allowed on your forum. Why then are there all the smiley faces and mockery about the serious things that Paul was telling you? Do you think he was joking?
How do you know Paul came on for the purpose to divide? What if his purpose was instead to give you the light he saw you were so lacking? Most (if not all) of the people here have opened their mouths against a brother of Christ. And I have to tell you, Martin, that you have already trod under foot the blood of the covenant.
Here is the verse about Diotrephes:
"I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, did not receive us" (3 John 1:9 MKJV).
Can you not see that this is the very thing you have done against Paul? He came speaking to you by God, and you would not receive him.
After reading the post that started all of this ("deadly error…"), I have to say it wasn’t a matter of doctrine to Paul, it was a matter of – What are you teaching people? If believers are told they need to endure to the end to be saved, how can we just say, "Everyone’s OK, because He is saving everyone"? What about the process of salvation? What about the Scriptures Paul brought up in his replies to you? You can’t convince me that they were only written for the Jewish people, because the Bible was given for all believers!
Isaiah 58:2-
For day after day they seek Me out;
they seem eager to know My ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask Me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
Isn’t that exactly what happened here, on this forum? These people claim to know God and to want to know God, but when a man from God answered them, they shut him down.
And Paul was obeying verse 1-
Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to My people their rebellion
and to the house of Jacob their sins.
and Jude-
"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 1:3).
"Jabcat" wrote:
Wisdom, can you please tell me how you know these men are such powerful teachers that are sent from God to straighten so many others out…as opposed to say, 10 other men/women of renown that minister from God’s Word? Why are you so convinced they are to be listened to, perhaps even above all others? Again, lest it be misunderstood…I DO NOT judge these men’s salvation, or their relationship with God. That is only known to God. But would you please answer my questions? Bottom line, how did you become convinced, and on what do you base your apparent opinion, that these men are to be set up above others as judges?
Take care,
James.
Sara’s reply:
Yes, James.
A number of years ago, I was caught in the system of false Christianity. Through Victor and Paul’s preaching, God showed me that He is not in anything that is formalized by doctrines – He did not come to give us doctrine! He came to give us life! In obedience to these men of God, I have been receiving His life. I was brought to repent of my false and wicked ways… separated from those close to me who wanted to continue in those ways. After coming to see (after being given this by God) that I am nothing and He is everything, and if I have anything from Him, He has all the glory, He filled me with His Spirit – the baptism in the Holy Spirit – through Victor and Paul’s ministry and the laying on of hands.
After that, I had new life in Him! He gave me the Scriptures in Ephesians 1, and showed me that I was "accepted in the beloved." Praise God! Since that time, He has given me visions, dreams, prophecies, and most importantly, a walk with Him and fulfillment in His work. And Victor and Paul are my spiritual elders, my fathers in the faith who birthed me and have been raising me to spiritual adulthood.
So you ask me how I became convinced… I wasn’t convinced! The Lord has been directly working with me and giving me faith and all good things because of my walk of obedience to Him – submitting to those He sent to me. And I know that others have to have the same to come into the true life in the Lord. Everything else is make-believe!
CHB wrote:
When a group or man claims to be the only one who has been chosen to know the truth, that throws up a red flag to me. I have been involved with such a group. I learned the hard way that no one has all the truth. The World Wide Church of God claimed to be THE true Church, the ONLY TRUE CHURCH and Herbert W Armstrong was the leader.
Witness, my advice to you is, run as fast as you can from this group. Once you are free from it you will be able to see through the deception it portrays. Take a look at all the other men who claimed to be a prophet, or chosen of God to proclaim the truth. Since the apostles, I don’t believe God has chosen ONE man to give the rest of us the whole truth.
CHB
Sara’s reply:
CHB,
Just because you were taken in by a false teacher doesn’t mean there are no true teachers – men of God!
You can’t judge what is happening/has happened with me because you were burned. Jesus said even then, "Beware of false prophets." So because there were false prophets, does that mean people shouldn’t have followed Jesus or the apostle Paul? Paul even said-
"Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ"(1 Corinthians 11:1 DRB).
But what about those who were burned by false teachers? Did this not apply to them, too?
The false doesn’t disqualify the true, CHB.
Sara then replied to all:
How blessed I am to have a God Who reveals Himself, His ways, and His truth to His servants, not leaving me to stumble in the dark.
"No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master does. But I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you" (John 15:15).
"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth" (1 John 2:20-21).
James ("Jabcat"), you wrote:
"Hi Witness. Who are the folks you feel you need to be separated from, how was that decision made, and exactly what is your relationship/contact with them now, please? Also, could you explain what the difference is between your belief in "the false" vs. your belief now in "the true"? In other words, had you called on Jesus, believed on Him as your Savior before, but needed some things clarified, taught to you, changes made in your life before you could enter into what you now consider "the true", i.e., Victor and Paul’s ministry? Thanks, James."
Have you not been separated by the Lord from your family or your church? If not, then why not, since Jesus said He came to bring a sword?
Matthew 10:34-39
(34) Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword.
(35) For I have come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
(36) And a man’s foes shall be those of his own household.
(37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
(38) And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.
(39) He who finds his life shall lose it. And he who loses his life for My sake shall find it.
And for all, regarding God honoring those who honor those He sends:
Matthew 10:40-41
(40) He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him Who sent Me.
(41) He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a just one in the name of a just one will receive a just one’s reward.
Back to you, James.
God also said, "Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty" (2 Corinthians 6:17-18).
So anyone who hasn’t experienced this separation hasn’t known the Lord – He has not (yet) called them to Himself, or they have refused coming to Him. "For many are called, but few chosen" (Matthew 22:14).
CHB, you wrote:
"Witness,
The thing is, we don’t need man to control us, tell us what to do and how to do it. We only need God. Doesn’t the Bible say to let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar. It is not good to let one man run your life, look what happened with Jim Jones. I am not saying there aren’t men of God or teachers that teach truth but no one teaches ALL the truth. I mean NO ONE, not even Paul Cohen, the Bible says so.
CHB"
Some Scriptures for you:
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you" (Hebrews 13:17).
"Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As My Father has sent Me, even so I send you" (John 20:21).
"And you did not despise my temptation in my flesh, nor did you spurn it. But you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus" (Galatians 4:14).
"For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me" (1 Corinthians 4:15-16).
"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the Word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:7-8).
After some further replies, Sara replied again:
"Jabcat," you wrote:
"Separation for me, and I believe what separation is biblically, is the difference between Light and darkness. That God’s Spirit working within me identifies with things of the Father and not of the world…not that I can’t interact with others, talk to them, spend time with them; but that our spiritual eyes may be set on different goals, our life’s focus on different things (things of the Spirit and life vs. things of the flesh and death) etc. A super literal interpretation of the verses of which you speak would mean that Jesus didn’t do what He said…and we know that’s not true, because there was no lie or deceit in Him. But we also both know that he sat with sinners, interacted with the "unclean"…now, did He desire to be a part of their sin? No, and that’s what I mean by the workings of the Spirit in the believer is different than what the unbeliever is typically focused on. But that doesn’t mean I have to, nor did Jesus, lock myself away in a room with just a select few people…and especially only the few that may be approved of by the "hierarchy" or only certain men in control."
If God’s Spirit were truly working within you, James, you would identify with the things I describe, for you would be, using your own words, identifying with the things of the Father, and not of the world. My experience with the walk with the Lord is not about dos and don’ts (you said, "not that I can’t interact with others…"), but I experienced a parting of ways with those who didn’t have the call of God on their lives as I did on mine. Does that mean I couldn’t talk to them? No. If some were adamantly, viciously opposed (and they were), there wasn’t much to talk about (to put it lightly). When the Lord said He brings a sword to divide, He meant it!
You talk about not needing a super literal interpretation of those verses. This isn’t about interpretation, James! This is about what the Lord has directly, personally done for me. I didn’t do what I did because I interpreted the Bible a certain way. The Lord did what He did, creating that opposition for my sake, and after all was said and done, I realized that I was living through exactly what the Scriptures say. What a wonderful thing!
Maybe it doesn’t matter, but I don’t understand what you are saying about those verses taken literally would mean that Jesus didn’t do what He said. I know that those verses applied to my life, and He did exactly what He said by bringing division between me and my family and others, when I believed and obeyed Him.
Who says I have locked myself away in a room? Am I not here talking to all of you?!
As for a hierarchy, the Lord has His system of things, all in order, and that includes putting some over others, in righteousness. God establishes certain men to exercise authority, as evidenced by the Scriptures I gave to CHB (which you ignore or try to explain away, CHB?).
You may say you believe the Bible, James, but what I see you doing is picking, choosing, and changing whatever sounds good to you.
"Onlytruth," your dream wasn’t from God.
Even if it were, "Sparrow," people in the Lord don’t praise each other for anything given by God – whether the dream or the interpretation. If God gives an interpretation (and He didn’t in this case, because the dream was not of Him), He gets the glory, not the person.
Obviously the apostle Paul wasn’t saying what you say he was saying, "Reformer" [that he did not submit to the apostles in Jerusalem]. 1) Do you deny he gave the instructions that I quoted to CHB? (He doesn’t contradict himself.) 2) In Galatians 1:18 (right after the verses you quoted), he describes that he abode with Peter for 15 days and also saw James, Jesus’ brother. 3) He also reports this:
"Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, also taking Titus along. (2) And I went up by revelation, and I set before them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those with influence, lest somehow I might run, or had run, for nothing" (Galatians 2:1-2).
So he did submit to those in authority in Jerusalem! He also required submission of those he ministered to and gave orders!
"For I myself, being present in spirit though not in body, have come to a decision about him who has done this thing; In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you have come together with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, That this man is to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may have forgiveness in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 5:3-5 BBE).
It amazes me to see how much praise you received for your letter, "Reformer." Anyone who wishes to walk with the Lord needs to flee from your influence.
Here are some excellent writings on Paul and Victor’s site that address these issues:
Iniquity
That Prophet Part 2
The Big Lie Exposed
Sara also replied:
James, you wrote:
"‘you may say you believe the Bible, james, but what I see you doing is picking, choosing, and changing whatever sounds good to you.’ That’s your opinion, and my opinion is that your opinion is based on your understanding and perhaps even more so, the influence of your ‘teachers’."
It isn’t my opinion that you’re picking and choosing the Scriptures you want to believe. It’s what I see you doing. I gave you Matthew 23, and you simply discarded it (or explained it away) talking about a "super literal translation of that verse."
I also gave you this: "God also said, ‘Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty’ (2 Corinthians 6:17-18)."
But you don’t even acknowledge the clear directions the Scriptures give!
As to the type of separation, I was directly led there, as I tried to describe to you, but I was also warned that it would happen (and I didn’t believe it)! Then the Lord did that with me; I was amazed, and I knew that Victor and Paul had spoken to me the truth.
I don’t really understand why you keep implying that my letters are being written for me. I have been fully expressing myself to you! And if I have gotten help from those over me in the Lord, what is that to you? Why do you leap to the conclusion that it’s an evil thing? Does the Lord not say He is a Body? That is how He has made us to be.
CHB, you wrote:
"Witness,
At the beginning of your post you seem to say you know you have been given ALL of the truth. You can have ALL of the truth about A certain thing and this is what is being talked about.
If you have ALL the truth about everything there is, then you don’t need to grow in knowledge and grace do you?"
I wasn’t meaning to imply that I have been given all the truth. But if the Lord is the Truth, and He is in me, then I do have all the Truth! Isn’t this according to the Scriptures?
Yes, it was said of the Son that He didn’t know the day the Father would restore the Kingdom, but what He didn’t know, He knew He didn’t know and didn’t say! When a man of God is given something to say to you (as Paul and Victor were), you can’t disregard it saying, "You can’t know ALL things"! What they know from the Lord, they say, and they don’t go beyond that. So when everyone here disregards the Word God gave them to preach, they throw God away, for He is Who gave it to them!
"Reformer," it seems that you were fishing for the praise of men for your post, and now you are receiving it. You now have your reward, according to Jesus-
"Therefore when you do your merciful deeds, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may have glory from men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. But when you do merciful deeds, do not let your left hand know what your right hand does" (Matthew 6:2-3).
And you weren’t even doing a merciful deed! Because your post was full of twisting of the Scriptures! Just like Peter said many did with Apostle Paul’s letters. All you did was what I described "Jabcat" doing- picking and choosing what you want to believe.
You said:
"We really only need quote in context to what you refer:
Galatians 2:1-11 (CLV)…
1 Thereupon, after the lapse of fourteen years, I again went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also along with me.
2 Now I went up in accord with a revelation, and submitted to them the evangel which I am heralding among the nations, yet privately to those of repute, lest somehow I should be racing or ran for naught.
What is stated is that it was the Gospel he preached that was submitted to them, not his own person.
3 But not even Titus, who is with me, being a Greek, is compelled to be circumcised.
4 Yet, it was because of the false brethren who were smuggled in, who came in by the way to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they shall be enslaving us-
5 to whom, not even for an hour do we simulate by subjection, that the truth of the evangel should be continuing with you.
6 Now from those reputed to be somewhat-what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)-for to me those of repute submitted nothing.
This is how he regards those ‘supposed to be pillars!’ He refuse to submit to those with James keeping the laws of Moses and says of the apostles that they are of no consequence" to him because, God is no respector of persons, He, ‘…is not taking up the human aspect.’"
You can see from what comes before verse 6, that Apostle Paul is not talking about the other apostles in verse 6, but is talking about "false brethren." The apostles of God are not false brethren! (Wow! Look at all the work I could have saved you with all your reasoning that now you have to throw away!)
As for "obeying the rule" vs. "yielding to the caretaking," in essence, what’s the difference? when I have obeyed the rule, I have yielded to the caretaking!
"Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you" (Hebrews 13:17).
The authority of men of God is everywhere in the Scriptures. Here are a couple more verses:
"Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in Word and doctrine" (1 Timothy 5:17).
"For even if I also should boast somewhat more fully of our authority (which the Lord has given us for building up, and not for pulling you down) I will not be put to shame; so that I might not seem to terrify you by letters" (2 Corinthians 10:8-9).
Building up is only for those who are Christ’s; those are the ones God corrects!
"But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are bastards and not sons" (Hebrews 12:8).
"Jabcat," back to you (sorry this is scattered). You asked me once:
"In other words, had you called on Jesus, believed on Him as your Savior before, but needed some things clarified, taught to you, changes made in your life before you could enter into what you now consider "the true", i.e., Victor and Paul’s ministry? Thanks, James."
I had believed myself a Christian all my life. Then when I was a teen, I had a conversion experience to the Lord after which I began to call upon His Name seeking the truth. I also became very religious. For about a year and a half, I listened to many different Christian programs, watched Christian TV, and read many Christian books. I was hungry for the truth from God.
It was only when I met Paul and Victor that I knew that I was hearing true words directly from God! It was so exciting. As I was led, step by step, through repentance of my false religious ways, and as my family situation grew hotter and hotter (my mother also being religious didn’t like what was happening to me at all!), I knew there was no way I could try to play both sides. I couldn’t hold onto my church and family, but also walk with God, Who was calling me to be His!
Through the steps of walking with the Lord through His servants, Victor and Paul, I have experienced victory over sins – masturbation in particular (to which I was in bondage for as long as I can remember, even though religious and wanting to quit!) – and I was delivered from devils (once again, being religious and holding certain doctrines couldn’t help me there!). I also received the Spirit through them, as I described, and what a wonderful thing to have the Lord within me!
Perhaps you thought I was speaking loosely when I spoke of the freedom experienced when realizing it is about the Lord, not about doctrines, and that He came to give us life. But until you experience these things for yourself – His direct hand in healing, delivering, causing you to walk with Him in truth, all you have is theory! And that is what I see here, in this forum, a bunch of theory – and a lot of bad theory at that – the Scriptures don’t line up with what you people are saying!
You may wonder how my belief in reconciliation fits in with all of this. I know for a fact that God is going to bring everyone to this same knowledge of Him, through His work in their lives. His people speaking the truth and confronting darkness is part of that great work from Him.
"Reformer," you said that the Scripture I quoted at top here (2 Corinthians 6:17-18) is talking about Babylon. Yes, it is. It is Babylon that the Lord caused me to forsake. It is Babylon that I see all of you partaking of – confusion. That is why you theorize and explain away the basic truths of Scripture without knowing God!
"Ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7).
"Jabcat," you suspect I am a little one. It is true, I am a little one, and the Lord prayed:
"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the sophisticated and cunning, and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight" (Matthew 11:25-26).
So, "Firstborn," all of this answers what you said:
"Paul and Victor are failures as we all are. They will fail you witness. They are cursing what God has blessed and that is just so much B.S."
In the flesh, yes, Paul and Victor are failures just as we all are! But the Lord is with/in them, giving them truth to speak in the Spirit, and in that truth He has made them faithful. They are walking in the Lord, in what He has given to them, and if a person is doing that, they are not a failure! The Lord is that person’s Savior.
Victor and Paul did not curse what God has blessed. They have not even cursed anyone here! They told the hard truth to those who needed to hear it. And what they had to say to me brought me to deliverance and faith in the Lord. And what they had for you was true and necessary, and none of this is B.S.!
CHB, you just asked me a question ["If we are sitting in Christ in heaven and are a citizen of heaven now, why the need to follow any man? We are spiritually already there. We don’t need any man to teach us if we are sitting in Christ and are already a citizen of heaven do we?"]. All of the above amply answers this. Please let me know if for some reason you think it doesn’t.
"Firstborn," you say God is your God without Victor or Paul. If your god is not their God, your god is not the true God. Amen!
Sara continues to reply:
"Jabcat," I have given you Scriptures and the understanding God has given me, which you and no one else here can argue against. That is not opinion. You only answer me with opinion, and you expect that to override facts!
Definition of opinion: "A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty."
I have both proof and certainty. You have neither. Do you think, therefore, it is impossible to have both?
You said:
"This included your opinion/judgment that I’m picking/choosing/manipulating scripture. Don’t you realize if I wanted to be judgmental and critical, I could say the same about you?"
No, you can’t say the same about me. But you subtly do so now anyway, because you are a false accuser.
You also said:
"It sounds as if you believe you have the absolute truth/that if anyone doesn’t say the words correctly as approved by your leaders, then perhaps they don’t know God?"
This isn’t about getting words correct. It’s about having (or not having) the repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that you claim to have. When someone makes claims, it is required of me to see the fruits before I believe those claims. But I see evil fruits from you – false accusing and insinuating evil where there is none and no proof of any.
You also say:
"You answer my questions about your thoughts and conversations being guided by others, with questions."
Obviously you didn’t pay attention to the straightforward answer I gave before my questions.
I’m not judging and condemning my brethren, "Jabcat." You are not my brother in Christ. You come at me subtly as an enemy, and expect that I would esteem you as a brother?
But you know who the accuser of the brethren of Christ is!
"Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which the LORD God had made…" (Genesis 3:1 HNV).
"And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night" (Revelation 12:9-10 MKJV).
So no, none of your marks of a cult apply to me and my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ.
I challenge you to see the Lord’s standard, however, of a cult.
Read The True Marks of a Cult.
You keep quoting, "Jabcat," "with what measure of judgment you mete…." That certainly applies to you, who judge unrighteous judgment (hence your false accusations, subtle hints, and opinions). To His saints, Jesus said:
"Do not judge according to sight [you do nothing but, "Jabcat"], but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24 MKJV).
Paul Hazelwood, you have some sarcasm in your post. Is that walking in the Spirit?
Also, you say about Victor and Paul:
"Their comments about me are entirely irrevalent as they have no clue and are apparently not even interested in the path my life has taken."
Why do you say they are not interested? Because they are not on this forum answering you? Don’t you know they were kicked off?
Besides, they demonstrated their interest in your life by answering you with substance on their site. If you want to talk to them, why don’t you write them, rather than complain about them behind their backs on a blog they can no longer access?
I can safely say, "Peacemaker," that you don’t know the Lord, and therefore, you do the opposite of what your name describes. You need to stop being religious and comforting yourself with your false prayer. What else could a prayer be that is coming from another subtle accuser of the brethren?
Also, Jesus said:
"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, They have their reward. But you, when you pray, enter into your room. And shutting your door, pray to your Father in secret; and your Father Who sees in secret shall reward you openly. But when you pray, do not babble vain words, as the nations. For they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard" (Matthew 6:5-7 MKJV).
You may have spoken what is hard, "Firstborn," but I saw no truth in any of your posts.
CHB, I’m not the one who is making Victor and Paul the issue here. You are, by trying to discredit them, so you can throw out the truth they told you.
You say:
"In the above you said "if the Lord is the Truth and He is in me, then I do have all the Truth". Then you go on to say what paul and Victor has given you."
No, I didn’t go on to say what Paul and Victor gave to me. I went on to say that when a man of God is given something to say to you (as they were to those on this forum), you can’t discard it, for the reasons I gave.
And if I did receive all those things that I related, and I did, through the ministry given to Victor and Paul, by the will and grace of God, why do you argue and fight against that? Haven’t I given you ample evidence against the position you take – that believers don’t need a man of God to teach them?
Why do you think God appointed these ministries in the Body of Christ?
"And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)
What do you do with all these, CHB?
If no one is in need of teaching or correction, why are there teachers, prophets, and apostles appointed?
But these are appointed for the Body of Christ, not for independent tares.
Sara
Sara replied further to all:
"Jabcat," you said:
"However, as a moderator, I clearly inform you that directly presuming to pass judgment on someone’s salvation is considered a personal attack and is not allowed on the forum."
If that’s the definition of a personal attack, haven’t you and others here been personally attacking me and Paul and Victor, since you have been accusing us as a cult?
"Reformer," I agree that the authority of men of God is God Himself. I never said or implied otherwise. And you can’t conclude from my posts that I am under the headship of usurpers, because I gave to "Jabcat" (and all here) a clear testimony of what the Lord did for me, through the ministry of Victor and Paul. No man can cast out devils without the power of the Lord. And if, through listening and believing and following them as men of God, I was not only delivered from demons, but also granted repentance and deliverance from my sins, why do you argue with that? And I received the Holy Spirit with confirmation of His new life!
"And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, He has Beelzebub, and He casts out demons by the ruler of the demons. And He called them and said to them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rises up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end" (Mark 3:22-26 MKJV).
You ask me what part of "singleness" don’t I understand and quote to me 2 Corinthians 11:2-4. This is exactly what I have received! Paul the apostle said, "I betroth you…." He had that direct leadership position in which to lead others to Christ. It has been the same for me. Therefore I hear from God, directly, personally, and through others. How else did I receive the Holy Spirit and the deliverance that I have already described? It was through God Who has been making me pure, bringing me to Himself!
"Reformer," you go on to say:
"What determines who are bastards is in the mothers. It is the same Father; but, is the mother Hagar or Sarah?"
This is not according to the Scriptures.
"Jesus said to them, If God was your Father you would have love for Me, because it was from God I came and am here. I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why are My words not clear to you? It is because your ears are shut to My teaching. You are the children of your father the Evil One and it is your pleasure to do his desires. From the first he was a taker of life; and he did not go in the true way because there is no true thing in him. When he says what is false, it is natural to him, for he is false and the father of what is false. But because I say what is true, you have no belief in Me" (John 8:42-45 BBE).
You say a virgin doesn’t have other authorities, that she is free. How can you say that, when fathers are authorities over daughters, as you yourself acknowledge – and the Scripture that you quoted (Hebrews 12:9) does not deny, but even reinforces, this. And men of God are authorities over the Church in general (you deny this last point – it stands nonetheless, for the Scriptures are true and cannot be denied).
One thing I see as a common occurrence on this forum is that I quote Scriptures that directly contradict the position that there are no men of God over others, and many of you quote other Scriptures that you think override the ones that I quote. But the Scriptures I quote don’t deny the Scriptures you quote! The Lord has made real to me the Whole Counsel of God in the Scriptures. I don’t find some to be applicable and some to be defunct… all of them apply.
"Reformer," you said:
"‘Antipas’ means ‘against all.’ Jesus calls him, ‘My faithful witness.’"
According to Strong’s, "Antipas" means "in place of a father." Isn’t that Christ’s faithful witness, and isn’t that what Apostle Paul said he was?
"I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me" (1 Corinthians 4:14-16 KJV).
As for "against all," all people are against us, as Jesus said they would be.
"And you will be hated of all men for My name’s sake, but the one who endures to the end shall be kept safe" (Matthew 10:22 MKJV).
Cardinal, you wrote:
"Definition of opinion: ‘A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.’
Definition of irrational: refusing to the let the facts interfere with that opinion."
I find your reply to be irrational, according to your own definition.
Paul Hazelwood, you ask me if I am sharing these posts with Paul Cohen. Yes, I am.
You also ask:
"What do you think a solution to becoming friends here is? Is finding that not a spiritual direction rather than one of the flesh? Please be specific."
My purpose has not been to become friends. My purpose has been to ask about Paul being kicked off your forum, and to present some points and questions that I found to be very applicable. (If there is anyone interested in the truth, we would naturally be friends.) Since then, my point has been to answer those who are talking to me, bringing up various Scriptures and comments that need to be answered.
Sarah, you wrote:
"I think it is ironic that some here were dubbed as being the ‘accuser of the brethern’. I’m also still wondering what Witness’s goal is here; to tell us to repent from something, to expose a false teaching and if so repent of what and what false teaching?"
I described my purpose above to Paul Hazelwood.
CHB, you wrote:
"Witness:
You mentioned all of the positions that were in the original Ekklesias in Paul’s day. In Paul’s day, all of these positions were necessary but today they are not. The reason I say this is, the Gospel had just began to be preached and Jesus had told them that this Gospel must be preached to the world. This was accomplished. Today, all we need is the Holy Spirit and God, nothing or no one else is necessary. Sure we can learn from others but we should NEVER put any one before God.
CHB"
What you say is entirely unScriptural. Where did anyone say those Scriptures are not applicable now? You take away from yourself by taking away from the Word of God.
"I, John, solemnly warn everyone who hears the prophetic words of this Book: if any add anything to them, God will add to their punishment the plagues described in this Book. And if any take anything away from the prophetic words of this Book, God will take away from them their share of the fruit of the Tree of Life and of the Holy City, which are described in this Book" (Revelation 22:18-19 GNB).
I don’t deny the postings you quoted, Taffy, from Victor and Paul. I do deny the way you used them, however, for without the context, those comments could seem unwarranted. If anyone wants the links from Paul and Victor’s site, I can provide them (ask me). The words you quoted from me were not actually said by me – I was quoting the summary from the John Calvin posting (found if you scroll down on the site under False Teachers… go to John Calvin), because I was sharing that link with those who could benefit from hearing about his true ways and spirit. Everyone here would do well to heed Ingrid’s words to Lisa Nunley ("The Lord promises that no good thing would He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Obviously with MS, we can hardly say you walk uprightly.")
Sara’s replies continue:
Cardinal, you wrote:
"Witness, why is it you use them casting out devils as proof of their right standing with God? I’m sure you know the scripture, ‘Didn’t we cast out devils in your Name?’"
I gave a lot more evidence of the work of God in my life than the casting out of devils. I spoke of having received the Holy Spirit through these men. While there is the Scripture you mention, which shows that one can be found false after having cast out devils, consider this one.
Jesus said:
"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you" (Luke 11:20 KJV).
There are no Scriptures that show that one can receive the Spirit through a person who is false. In fact, the disciples who believed Philip’s preaching in Acts 8 needed to have Peter and John sent to them to receive the Spirit – Philip couldn’t do that for them! And at that same time, Simon the conjuror asked for the power to impart the Holy Spirit, and that was denied to him because of the evil motives of his heart.
There is a lot of evidence in the Bible that shows that the Holy Spirit cannot be given through those who are false.
Back to the Scripture you quoted:
"Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name? and in Your Name have cast out devils? and in Your Name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:22-23).
Raising children in the Lord isn’t on this list. Only true shepherds can raise children in the Lord.
Consider that Paul the apostle said:
" Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 9:1-2 KJV).
I am the seal of Victor and Paul’s apostleship. Who else but the Lord could give me a daily walk with Him with all the fruits of the Spirit and direction through them to this day? All of this testifies to the genuineness of their ministry.
As to the rest of your post, just like CHB you are guilty of taking from the Bible:
"I, John, solemnly warn everyone who hears the prophetic words of this Book: if any add anything to them, God will add to their punishment the plagues described in this Book. And if any take anything away from the prophetic words of this Book, God will take away from them their share of the fruit of the Tree of Life and of the Holy City, which are described in this Book" (Revelation 22:18-19 GNB).
For I have given you the Scriptures that speak against what you are saying – that there are no longer men of God to lead His Body to the right relationship with Him. Denying His servants, you deny Him and any portion in Him.
I now answer others of you.
Nathan, you wrote:
"Just because we were told by God that we’re to put on the weapons of warfare when we were younger in our relationship with him, doesn’t mean that’s the way it is for the rest of our lives. It’s just as Paul said about being a child . .when I was a child, I spoke, I acted as a child, but when I became a man . . .I PUT AWAY childish things."
Paul the apostle said:
"If I have, as it were, fought ‘wild beasts’ here in Ephesus simply from human motives, what have I gained? But if the dead are not raised to life, then, as the saying goes, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we will die" (1 Corinthians 15:32 GNB).
Would you accuse Apostle Paul of not having been mature in the faith because he "fought with wild beasts"?
if that were the case, why would he say this?
Ephesians 6:10-16 KJV
(10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might.
(11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
(12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
(15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
(16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Whereas Paul the apostle says to be strong in the faith, wrestling against the rulers of the darkness of this world, you say it is a sign of immaturity? There are many Scriptures that indicate otherwise. Should I take your word over theirs?
There is also this exhortation from Jude:
"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 1:3-4 KJV).
So who are you to hold your opinion higher than the Word of God?
As for the rest of you, why compare us with Darwin Fish? As you have so amply noticed, we have him listed as a false teacher because he is teaching falsehood, which we pointed out to him for the good of all. (He was actually teaching people it is OK to masturbate as a believer in Christ! What bondage his teachings would have kept me in!)
WW, can you back up your comment about Paul Cohen ("Hateful boastful troll would be a better title for Paul") with the Scriptures?
Brian, when a person chooses to hold onto their falsehood rather than heed and obey the Lord, who is the one being hateful? The one who rejects God, or the one who warned him?
Another reply from Sara:
Paul Hazelwood, you write:
"Even if it is true what you say, The holy spirit does not need a man to give it in the first place. You could be deceived into thinking men did it when you actually received it without them and they used that to their own advantage."
It is true that the Holy Spirit can be given by God without the mediation of a man. In all cases in the Scriptures, however (besides the original recipients of His spirit at Pentecost), a man was required.
Even the apostle Paul had to receive sight and the baptism in the Spirit from a man – Ananias. This was wonderfully arranged by God. It seems to me that you would say to Paul, "But you could have received without a man!" No, it has to be – always – as God gives it. Otherwise, it is not to be.
As for myself, what you said is not true. I did not receive by myself from the Lord before Victor and Paul laid hands on me. It was through their ministration.
You also write:
"Masturbation is not wrong, btw."
The Bible doesn’t say masturbation is OK. You may answer, "Well, the Bible doesn’t say it’s not!" In answer to that objection, I ask you to read the posting to Darwin Fish, Must Everything Be Spelled Out in the Bible?.
Also consider what the Bible does speak about:
"You have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into hell" (Matthew 5:27-29 MKJV).
"And if any man’s semen goes from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water and be unclean until the evening. And every garment and every skin on which the semen shall be, it shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the evening" (Leviticus 15:16-18 MKJV).
If, in the Old Testament, a man was unclean for having an ejaculation, and if, in the New Testament, Jesus said not to lust after a woman (or a woman after a man), why would masturbation be OK?
Here are some more Scriptures that speak generally about succumbing to the lusts of the flesh:
"These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men’s persons in admiration because of advantage" (Jude 1:16 KJV).
2 Timothy 3:2-5 KJV
(2) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
(3) Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
(4) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
(5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another" (Titus 3:3 KJV).
Why would it not be better to look to the Lord for deliverance and the holy life in Him?
"The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust for a day of judgment, to be punished, and especially those who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise dominion. They are darers, self-pleasing; not trembling at glories, speaking evil" (2 Peter 2:9-10 MKJV).
There is also a good and applicable Scripture quoted at the end of this segment from Is Your Profession of Faith Vain, Christian?:
Are You a Masturbator?
Do you masturbate? Does your church teach or condone this as an alternative to being given over to the sin of fornication? Or do they not discuss it at all, leaving you to follow your own thoughts and inclinations? Be sure to know that indulging the lusts of the flesh is sowing in corruption, and you will reap the same. Rather than ruling over and keeping your body under, you are ruled by the carnal and physical appetites. To the world this is the way things are, not knowing any better or differently, but for the Christian it is a tragic loss. You have no idea of what you are losing or doing to yourself, those who name the Name of Christ and masturbate. Instead of entering into the victorious life of the Spirit, you consign yourself to spiritual death:
"But she who gives herself to pleasure is dead while she is living" (1 Timothy 5:6 BBE).
You ask, Paul Hazelwood:
"Is the boogey man going to make me pay because I taught my kids [masturbation’s] ok?"
Obviously you aren’t seeing how you pay right now, but one day you will, when you realize the harm you did to your children in teaching them this. No, there is no boogey man, but there is the bondage to sin that causes death. I know; I was in that death, and now I know the difference after having been set free and given life in the Lord. Praise His holy and blessed Name!
I see you can’t answer my question, WW. The only thing you can do is make up words, put them in someone’s mouth, and then blame him. Where do you find that in the Scriptures?
Here is what I find:
"And the chief priests and the elders and all the sanhedrin sought false witness against Jesus, in order to put Him to death. But they found none; yea, though many false witnesses came, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came up and said, This one said, I am able to destroy the Temple of God and to build it in three days" (Matthew 26:59-61 MKJV).
Sara answered them some more:
Just a bit of explanation to all of you. I am a busy woman, so I copy and paste all quotes to myself and take them with me to answer as led throughout the day. Then when I come here to post, there are usually more posts up since I last viewed the forum. I just leave those to consider for my next batch of answers.
So, CHB, your question came in between batches, and I am answering more now.
You wrote:
"Well!! thats a new one on me, and I thought all the time we received the Holy Spirit through God?"
I am speaking of receiving from God, as you should know. I backed this up with examples from the Scriptures (citing Paul having received through Ananias, and showing that those who received since Pentecost in the Bible received through a man).
"Witness, I have a question? Is Paul C the only man that we can receive the Holy Spirit through?
CHB"
You can’t receive the Holy Spirit through any man of God, because you are in unrepentance and disobedience.
"And we are His witnesses of these things. And so also is the Holy Spirit, Whom God has given to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32 MKJV).
"Pneuma," you say:
"Sven it is not what Paul beleives so much as his judgments of everyone here that was the problem."
Those are only a problem, Scott, if you are not able or willing to repent or to answer them in truth.
"Reformer," your post demonstrates simply that you don’t know what you are talking about. You can theorize all you want, but until you know the truth from God, being and growing in Him, you simply don’t know. One day you will know this. Here is the quote that you tried to answer from Paul:
"Men that do not know God are still in their sins and cannot bring one to God"
Paul did not say, "men that do not know of God." He said, "men that do not know God." You are talking about knowledge. Paul is talking about relationship. You don’t have that relationship, so you don’t know what he is saying.
You wrote:
"I notice when it comes to the light these guys claim their supposed discernment is only for the evil: who does not know God or who is not saved. They have no light for the good, only for the evil."
I gave a lot of light in my answers to many here – demonstrating to everyone what great and wonderful and glorious things God has done in my life. I did this in order to say that if you will repent, you (all) can have this, too! What greater light is there to share? But you only see it as darkness.
2 Corinthians 2:15-17 MKJV
(15) For we are to God a sweet savor of Christ, in those being saved, and in those being lost;
(16) to the one we are the savor of death to death, and to the other we are the savor of life to life. And who is sufficient for these things?
(17) For we are not as many, hawking the Word of God; but as of sincerity, but as of God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.
"Taffy," you quote Paul and ask:
"He and his family are greatly suffering the ravages of sin, as do many on Tentmaker
Care to expound ?"
Are you not aware of the many illnesses and troublings that afflict many of your members here at Tentmaker? Take a walk through the "Prayer Room." You even wrote a number of the posts!
This is not "black propaganda," "Peacemaker," it is the truth. See for yourself. You think the things recounted there demonstrate the blessing and abundant life promised by God?
"Reformer," those verses in 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 are speaking of a man and a woman. There is no way you can say they are talking about masturbation unless you are adding to the Book.
Revelation 22:18 MKJV: For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. [are not the evidences of these plagues already made clear in the "Prayer Room"?]
Paul Hazelwood, you need to demonstrate Biblically how I have no idea what I am talking about, since I spoke to you from the Scriptures. Your opinions aren’t Scripture.
"Taffy," your post makes no sense. It appears you are lacking the sound mind that it says the Lord gives to His people.
Your quote from Titus:
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).
Actually speaks in favor of what I was saying. How can anyone defend masturbation while denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, and while living soberly, righteously, and godly?
Nathan, I neither rebuked nor disdained anyone here. I simply gave Scriptural evidence that masturbation is not godly.
I agree, "Cardinal," that masturbation exists because a man or woman prefers his or her own body either to his or her spouse or to living celibate. Since I readily confessed to all of you my past bondage of masturbation and told you that the Lord released me from that bondage, how then does this apply to me?:
"Judgment begins in the house of the Lord, and we are to judge ourselves first, lest we be judged by the same measure."
Paul Hazelwood, you write:
"Someone coming from the standpoint of being addicted to masturbation has shown me that this religious instruction is also in error."
If you are saying someone addicted to masturbation showed you that masturbation is OK, why would you take that person’s word for it, especially when he/she desires to continue in his/her masturbation without feeling guilty? Will you listen to a thief who tells you stealing is OK? Which will you believe, the Word of God or the opinions of a man (or woman)? I am giving you the Word of God.
Many here seem to take the position that unless you can show this teaching (that masturbation is wrong) to be wrong, there is no alternative than for an addicted person to live in guilt for the rest of his life – guilt you believe to be unfounded. But I am pointing to the Solution to this guilt – the Lord! He released me from that addiction, so that I would struggle no more, because the sin was taken away from me.
You say, Paul H.:
"I see a vile affection with this ministry that witness is involved in and when someone reads vile affection typically they will think of sexuality."
"And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Galatians 5:24 KJV).
The Lord gave me a vision recently that showed me that these kinds of speculations on Tentmaker are very lustful, the equivalent of spiritual masturbation. You are pleasing yourselves with carnal spiritualizing that’s evil.
You also say:
"When a vile affection is many things, one is getting pleasure from the religious condemnation of others while sowing seeds of cursing and fear. I know they get pleasure from it because they relate it in justification to their walk with Christ and claim they have the truth. that makes them feel good in the walk deep in their heart knows is darkness."
You don’t know what you’re talking about, and you don’t know that what you’re saying is true for us (and it’s not).
You need to back up all your statements with facts, both from our words and from the Bible. I can say that we find all of your behaviors vexing and disgusting – not a pleasure at all to deal with. But it is a glorious thing and great honor to speak the Truth.
CHB, you write:
"(Lev. 15:16-17) It doesn’t say this is a sin, just that it is unclean. Just like it doesn’t say it is a sin if a woman has a blood issue but it says it is unclean (Verse 19-30)."
I never said an ejaculation is a sin, I said it was unclean. It is a sin, however, to fantasize lustfully, inducing that ejaculation. And even if one is very good with controlling his/her thoughts, playing with fire leads to getting burned. It’s written in the Law that a man can become unclean for the sake of his wife, or may have a nocturnal emission, but those who have the conviction of the Holy Spirit know it’s not good to masturbate.
You also write:
"Witness, do you practice the things that are said in verse 19-30 when you have your period? According to what you have said it is a sin for you to have your period if it is a sin to masturbate and you must offer burnt offerings and all sorts of things to become clean again.
If you are under the law and break the least, then you are guilty of breaking the whole."
It is a sin for you to put evil words in my mouth. I have no control over my period, but you decide if you will masturbate. Big difference. You are right that breaking the least equates to breaking the whole, and you need to repent.
I (and we who believe) are not, however, "under the Law." We have been given by God to keep the spirit of the Law (which is what Jesus was talking about when He spoke of looking at a woman with lust). That is why we know masturbation is wrong.
As for the menstruation rules, yes I do keep those, by taking measures of keeping myself and my surroundings clean with an awareness I didn’t have before coming to believe.
in this question:
"You did not answer my other question about receiving the Holy Spirit. Why?"
I suspect you are echoing my statement to WW that he could not answer my question. He had responded to my post. I had not yet responded to yours, for reasons laid out at the beginning of this post.
Sven, do you still not see masturbation forbidden in the Bible after the Scriptures I gave? Read my post laying out the evidence. Of all people, I cannot condemn you for masturbating. You do need to know, however, that there is a better way for those who believe. The Lord can deliver you if you turn to Him in repentance.
Sara
After this posting, Sara was given this message:
Sorry Witness, you are banned from using this forum!
continues to personally attack by saying people aren’t saved, she’s disgusted by people on TM’s alleged evil behavior, basically indicating that people on here deserve to have illness as a punishment, etc.