“Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools” (Romans 1:22 KJV).
Victor’s article, Who Then Can Be Saved?!, elicited derision and error from several on the The Fighting Fundamental Forums [link defunct]. Paul Cohen replied to them. Here is the ensuing conversation.
Plain Meanings Without Contortions
Bob started this thread by commenting on an article on our site, Who Then Can Be Saved?! He claims we do not understand the meaning of “all,” yet here is a note I wrote to Richard Boyce (whose blog promptly disappeared after I sent this letter to it), about who does not understand:
Richard, why insist on making it so difficult? “All” means all, or God would have said “some.” For example, compare:
From: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22 EMTV).
To: “For as in Adam some die, even so in Christ some will be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22 EMTV).
From: “For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell. And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven” (Colossians 1:19-20 MKJV).
To: “For it pleased the Father that in Him some fullness should dwell. And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile some things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven” (Colossians 1:19-20 MKJV).
And from: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him” (Ephesians 1:10 KJV).
To: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one some things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. The rest will burn in hell forever” (Ephesians 1:10 KJV).
To answer the question, “Who then can be saved?” you say, “I guess, then, the correct answer is ‘ALL that God wants to save’, that’s who.”
Very good. Now who does God want to save?
“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” ( Peter 3:9 KJV).
Did not Jesus say that with men these things are impossible but with God all things are possible? Who is it that does not know the meaning of the word “all”?
He is sovereign, and we make a good case for sovereign election – how about you? You make a poor and unScriptural case for human election, do you not? Why not determine the validity of men’s words and doctrines by the Holy Scriptures rather than determining the Holy Scriptures and their meaning by men’s doctrines?
You are changing and adding to God’s words. You are twisting God’s straightforward and unequivocal words in order to align yourself with men’s diabolical doctrines and interpretations of Scriptures. Before you react with knee-jerk indoctrinated arguments, you need to carefully read the writings on our site, because the answers to all your objections are already there. Read The Good News and The Reconciliation of All Things in particular, but all that is posted in our section on The Restitution of All Things.
Also, do not jump to erroneous conclusions about what we are preaching, confusing it with the false gospel of the Universalists who do not call for repentance or walking in the ways of God, not even knowing them or doing so themselves. You can inform yourself of the difference between what is Biblical, according to God, and what is not at this other section: Universalism.
And more on His standards at: The True Marks of a Cult [END OF LETTER TO RICHARD]
For the rest of you, along with Richard, I recommend The SIGN: The Book of Jonah, the Book of God, which answers your debate on free will, election, and God’s sovereignty over all things unto His salvation.
Lance brought up our article about the murderer, John Calvin. Yes, that is also a good one to read, for other reasons, demonstrating that “the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking [philosophizing about doctrines], but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Romans 14:17 MKJV). Indeed, we do know them by their fruits.
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From Richard Boyce (Budding Theologian):
Don’t flatter yourself, Paul. I’m job hunting and don’t need a blog showing my argumentative side.
Quote from Paul: Richard, why insist on making it so difficult? “All” means all, or God would have said “some.”
Quote from me: So evidently in these parts, “all” means every human that’s ever lived or ever will live.
Came across this gem tonight:
Galatians 2:14 says “But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”
Good grief.
That means that Paul was like, 10 miles tall. Had to have been, if everyone living (all, of course) could see him.
I didn’t know he was that big, to be honest.
Another quote from me:
John 4:29
“Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?”
That musta been one loooooooong conversation.
Another quote from me:
John 8:2
“And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.”
Now that’s a big temple!
Another quote from me:
JOhn 18:40
“Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.”
Imagine, the entire human race crying out at the same time. I bet that was loud!
Another quote from me:
Acts 2:1
“And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.”
Good grief! That place musta been huge!
Another quote from me:
You know, I’m starting to think that “all” must just have to be defined based upon context.
Have a nice day, sir.
—
Psalm 23:6
Hebrew Masoretic Text: “to/for a length of days”
King James Version of the Masoretic Text: “forever”
–Which words are God’s, and which word is man’s?
Young’s Literal Translation: “…for a length of days”
King James Version: “…for ever”
–Which translation is more accurate to the Hebrew text?
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From JamesJerry2:
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From Richard Boyce:
Amen…
On a serious note….can anyone tell me the difference between theological error and heresy?
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From JamesJerry:
Sure- when I am wrong it is error. When you are wrong it is heresy! HAR HAR HAR
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From Richard Boyce:
Hahahaha.
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From Paul Cohen:
Of course, Richard, we would expect you to pontificate and then abdicate just to get a lousy job in a world that is perishing, as are you, nurturing and feeding your flesh. What a profession of faith you have! Yes, I am sure Paul hid all his thoughts and letters when making tents for his clients. Fool! What shame you bring to the Name of Christ by your ways!
Regarding the word “all,” you are right about context, but entirely foolish in your arguments, proving me right and yourself wrong.
The quotes with which I provided you were perfectly in context of God’s work of salvation through Christ, whereas you have given me more of your perverse contortions.
I gave you:
“As in Adam ALL die, so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” How many sons of Adam have inherited death? Every one of those will be made alive in Christ.
You gave me:
“And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were ALL with one accord in one place.” Who were “they” and how many of them were there? The context tells us:
“until the day He was taken up, having given directions to the apostles whom He chose, through the Holy Spirit; to whom He also presented Himself living after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them through forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem…Then they…” (Acts 1:2-12 MKJV).
Other wretched examples of your intentional stupidity:
In the context of Paul speaking before “all” when he rebuked Peter, obviously he was speaking of those present in that place.
The woman at the well was not speaking the word of God, as was Paul the apostle in his teachings. She was speaking in superlatives, deserved yes (does not Christ know all things?), but her words are not to be taken as literally describing what happened there. Only an indoctrinated, opinionated, argumentative fool would present them as proof that the Lord does not mean all when He says all.
All the rest of your examples are similarly speaking of “all” in a context that is self-evidently not speaking of every person that draws breath, but those who were present in a particular place at a particular time. Not so with the Scriptures I quoted. Will you now argue and persist in proving yourself a fool? I would hope otherwise, but pride has you firmly in its grasp.
For an answer as to which word is God’s, and which is man’s, read The True, Scriptural Meanings of “Forever,” “Everlasting,” and “Hell”. (Herb Evans’ quote does not apply here.)
Jerry, apparently your busyness has also made you oblivious. You are so busy trying to prove that Calvin was a heretic you cannot see the mother lode of proof before your eyes, with which I provided you in my last post. But whereas I prove Calvin false by his fruits and his words, you act as Calvin did by condemning me without proof. Calvin thought it was all about him and you think it is all about you. So you are trying to prove your brother is a heretic. Thankfully, as the Lord Jesus Christ promised, a divided kingdom falls.
Back to you, Richard. The difference between theological error and heresy? Theological error is wrong, period (yes, it is wrongness itself), whereas heresy is in the eye of the beholder (Jerry alludes to this). For example, the reconciliation of all things through Jesus Christ is heresy to you, just as teaching against infant baptism was heresy to Luther and other holders of the “orthodox” position. The problem with you and your compatriots like Jerry is that you have theological theories and orthodox positions, but are devoid of revelation or personal knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why you are found walking in the footsteps of your fathers, the Pharisees, only multiplied in your scorning and derision. It is about Christ, not Christianity, about faith, not doctrine, and about love, not knowledge. You are a tare.
Never having known the Lord, you could not qualify as heretics of the true faith (those who divide from the assembly of saints – 1 Corinthians 11:19). You have only been adherents of the black faith as part of the body of Mystery, Babylon the Great. You are not as sows returning to the mire, because you have never left the mire to receive cleansing from the Lord in the first place.
A word to both of you:
“The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of laughter” (Ecclesiastes 7:4 MKJV).
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From jwomble:
Paul looking at your website you look to be in great heresy-
I hope I am reading something wrong- but it appears that you deny the trinity as well as denying eternal punishment for those outside of Christ.
You seem to be in great error- I hope God shows you the error that you are in.
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From JamesJerry2:
Paul is fer sure a heretic.
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From Richard Boyce:
Man, talk about anger issues!
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From Richard Boyce:
Tidbits from Paul’s website.
“One of the biggest and worst lies ever told in man-made Christianity, one that John Piper subscribes to and teaches, is that there is a place of interminable torment and punishment for sinners. Men think to find this doctrine in the Bible, but while it is something the carnal man would wish on others, it is surely not something God has ever said or that ever entered into His mind.” From here.
“The Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are one and the same person. There is One God, manifest in three offices or roles, but not three persons.” From here.
“Why are we condemned as a cult?…Could it be that I have claimed to hear from God on many and diverse issues, condemning so much of what is believed and practised by nominal Christians? Obviously.” From here.
“God manifest Himself in the weakness and limitation of flesh to His creation, in the Person of Jesus Christ, to redeem all of mankind from self, from sin, from darkness, from the world under the power of the Serpent.
The Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, has been perfectly successful, the fruits to be manifest in the fulness of time. All men will be delivered from their sin, redeemed to confess Him as Lord on reverent and thankful, not grudging and fearful, bended knee.” From here.
“IF FOR THESE THINGS WE ARE DEFINED OR IDENTIFIED AS A CULT, SO BE IT, WE ARE A CULT, AND I MAKE NO APOLOGIES.” From here.
Sir, I truely hope that God grants you faith and repentance and saves your soul. Until that happens, though, I have no part with you.
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From Bob House:
Mr. Cohen,
I don’t have the time right now to respond to most of your post, and I’m sure that my comments would go largely unheeded anyway. However, I must point out a key problem with your interpretation. You quoted Romans 5 in your attempt to justify your heretical notion of universalism:
Quote by Paul: “As in Adam ALL die, so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” How many sons of Adam have inherited death? Every one of those will be made alive in Christ.
The problem here is that you are emphasizing the wrong part of the verse. If you read the entire context of the passage, it is plain that Paul is not teaching the eventual salvation of every individual who has ever lived. Rather, if you put the emphasis in the right place, the contextual meaning of all will be clear:
As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive.
What God is telling us is that all who are of the seed of Adam die. Because of Adam’s sin, and Adam’s position as the federal head of the human race, all must die. However, Christ provided the perfect sacrifice for those given Him by the Father in eternity, therefore, those are placed in Christ. As a child of God, I am now under the headship of Christ; no longer in condemnation (Romans 8), but made alive!
This is extremely dangerous doctrine you are teaching, and is certainly heretical (by the way, I don’t call everyone who doesn’t believe just like me a heretic). There are too many passages which clearly teach eternal punishment in the lake of fire for those who remain in their sins to ignore.
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From Victor Hafichuk:
Replies to Womble and JamesJerry
Womble, you have not looked very well, being frivolous and blind. If you were to judge matters by the Scriptures and by spiritual revelation from God instead of by man’s “orthodox doctrine” of “orthodox Christianity,” which are heresy to God, you would find that we preach from God’s throne, based solidly in Scripture. Why not read the provided links for the proof to see that we back up what we teach with God’s Word, while you believe diabolical falsehood. The doctrines of trinity and eternal punishment as you know them are two pagan, Christ-slandering doctrines, and you need to repent of them.
As for you, JamesJerry, you show a proud, sober face but your remarks are juvenile, ignorant, without substance, not nearly as cute as you think, and highly irresponsible before man and God. What else should be expected of the world?
We would not rebuke you if it were not for the fact that you profess faith in Christ (or so one might suppose, seeing you appear here) but you are among those Jesus sharply rebuked and we are with Him. Read our presentations, search the Scriptures, ask God to give you humility and brokenness, and perhaps you will be more inclined to have two full ears rather than one empty mouth.
Victor Hafichuk
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From JamesJerry2:
Vic- why don’t you and Paul craw back to your rock. You both are heretics, most likely lost as Job’s goat, and fer sure doing the work of Satan. This place is not for you. I understand that for someone to believe as you do you have seared your mind to the truth, so a rebuttal is unnessesary. Just leave and spread your heresy at your own website.
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From Richard Boyce:
Quote by Paul: As for you, JamesJerry, you show a proud, sober face but your remarks are juvenile, ignorant, without substance, not nearly as cute as you think…
I dunno. I finally found some common ground with him, hahahahaha.
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From TR3:
Quote by Paul: Bob started this thread by commenting on an article on our site, Who Then Can Be Saved?! …
I suggest that you take to heart the advice from John Robbins that you have posted on your site:
Keep your damned (I speak literally) opinions to yourself.
—
“My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave.”- ” Stonewall” Jackson
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From Paul Cohen:
Bob House’s Contention and Condition
Bob, not only has your answer not gone unheeded, but it was anticipated and answered in advance. I told you in my first post to read the links I gave there before making arguments that are already answered. You should pay attention and hear a matter out before jumping to conclusions and making false accusations that are provably unwarranted.
“If one answers a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him” (Proverbs 18:13 MKJV).
You better hope all are to be saved because, if not, you will not be among the saved; you aren’t now. As for your specific criticism, I understand what you are saying. However, I was not putting the emphasis in the sentence on the word “all” to the exclusion of “in Christ.” I was only pointing out that the word “all” is used, not “some.” If the verse meant what you wrongly interpret it to mean, it would read:
“As in Adam all Christians have died, so in Christ shall all Christians be made alive.”
But here is what the Scripture does say, in context, proving that the promise of life in Christ applies to “all”:
“But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ’s at His coming; then is the end, when He delivers the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power. For it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet” (1 Corinthians 15:23-25 MKJV).
Just as those of us who believe and are part of His Body were once at enmity with God and have now ceased from being His enemies…
“And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish, and without charge in His sight” (Colossians 1:21-22 MKJV).
…so too shall all enemies cease in the same manner, being reconciled to God:
“And through Him [Christ] having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven” (Colossians 1:20 MKJV).
Your argument that the emphasis must be put on “in Christ” must also be balanced with the emphasis on “in Adam” to be consistent. If all were included “in Adam” then all are included “in Christ.” And because you think you are “in Christ,” because of some formulaic Baptist-style profession, does not make you “in Christ.” Your vain gospel has snared you, deceiving you into a false sense of security. You have never known the salvation of Jesus Christ, and we are here to tell you so.
What do you think is happening with you here, Bob? Do you think you will maintain your independence and enmity with God and the Son of Man forever? No. You are now hearing the Word of God that will break you in pieces and subdue you. The gospel of Christ and His salvation to come is far from a ticket to lawlessness. It is a call to lawfulness for you, which you cannot escape, your sinfulness exposed so you might come to know the grace of God:
“But the Law entered so that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound” (Romans 5:20 MKJV).
Grace wins out, not sin.
“And just as all people were made sinners as the result of the disobedience of one man, in the same way they will all be put right with God as the result of the obedience of the One Man” (Romans 5:19 GNB).
Who can argue that by Adam’s disobedience all were made sinners? The point that Paul makes is that the power of Christ’s obedience is greater than the power of Adam’s disobedience. No man being able to do anything about his state, it is strictly by the grace of God and His power that any are delivered from sin. What Adam brought on all men is to be superseded in the fullness of time by what Christ has brought on all men, God coming in the flesh to accomplish it.
Bob, you are not a child of God. If you were, you would recognize His brethren, because they would also be your brothers. You do not recognize us because you are a tare, a son of this world and the devil. But we have no fear (lack of love) regarding your status, because not only has Christ inherited all things, so have we. You are ours, to rule with a rod of iron, for good and not evil:
“He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son” (Revelation 21:7 MKJV).
“And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father” (Revelation 2:26-27 MKJV).
Yes, you will go into the Lake of Fire, just as Jesus said that every man shall be salted with fire (Mark 9:49). Our God is a consuming fire. You will come to know Him. Your knee shall also bow as you confess His Name and give God glory, and not as you now do, in vain, incurring His wrath.
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From Paul Cohen:
JamesJerry and TR3: Bitter and Devoid of Substance
JamesJerry, No crawling necessary; we are already on the Rock. In fact, that Rock is now on you:
“Whosoever shall fall upon that Stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will grind him to powder” (Luke 20:18 KJV).
You admit you don’t know what you are talking about, using words like “most likely” and “I understand.” You “think” but don’t know. Yet you condemn us and abscond from any personal responsibility of providing evidence. Therefore, the Lord Jesus Christ holds you responsible for judging unrighteously, and He will not let you go as guiltless.
As for answering those here who have brought up the matter of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Whom we preach, and who continue to argue without substance, who are you to tell us not to answer? Is this your personal website? Nevertheless, you obviously have nothing to say, we have told you so, and there is nothing more to be said to you.
TR3, because we provide indisputable substance to back what we are saying, and you do not, it is you who speaks damned opinion according to God. In your present stance as an enemy of Christ you are not safe no matter where you are, in bed or in battle.
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From Richard Boyce:
I don’t think I’ve ever read pure hatred until reading the last coupla posts.
Kinda freaky.
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From Richard Boyce:
Quote by Paul:
JamesJerry, No crawling necessary; we are already on the Rock. In fact, that Rock is now on you:
“Whosoever shall fall upon that Stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will grind him to powder” (Luke 20:18 KJV).
You admit you don’t know what you are talking about, using words like “most likely” and “I understand.” You “think” but don’t know. Yet you condemn us and abscond from any personal responsibility of providing evidence. Therefore, the Lord Jesus Christ holds you responsible for judging unrighteously, and He will not let you go as guiltless.
As for answering those here who have brought up the matter of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Whom we preach, and who continue to argue without substance, who are you to tell us not to answer? Is this your personal website? Nevertheless, you obviously have nothing to say, we have told you so, and there is nothing more to be said to you.
TR3, because we provide indisputable substance to back what we are saying, and you do not, it is you who speaks damned opinion according to God. In your present stance as an enemy of Christ you are not safe no matter where you are, in bed or in battle.
Amazing what Google will teach a person. Check out this article. I apologize in advance for the cursing from Paul.
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From Richard Boyce:
http://www.junkyard.indeathorlife.org/
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From Richard Boyce:
http://discerningtheworld.wordpress….ruth-to-where/
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From Richard Boyce:
Yeah….help yourself.
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From TR3:
Quote from Paul:
TR3, because we provide indisputable substance to back what we are saying, and you do not, it is you who speaks damned opinion according to God. In your present stance as an enemy of Christ you are not safe no matter where you are, in bed or in battle.
I’ll take my chances.
My trust is in the Lord, and whoever trusts in Him will not be diappointed.
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From JamesJerry2:
Paul, as much as most of us here disagree about stuff, I think we can all say you need to shove off.
DO I HAVE A WITNESS?
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From Richard Boyce:
I’ll second that one.
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From JamesJerry2:
Gather together brethern and “AMEN” our brother BT [Budding Theologian… Richard Boyce)] for the homework on the two we should reject.
Or course- that was the least he could do. He brought them here. HAR HAR
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From Richard Boyce:
Reckon it’s “all” my fault, huh?
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From JamesJerry2:
No- it would be the fault on us dumb enough to feed the egos of those two. If we all ignore them, maybe they will go away.
Kind of like the monsters under the bed.
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From Bob House:
Ladies and Gentlemen of the FFF,
I must sincerely apologize for linking to the article at the beginning of this post. I simply wanted to start an interesting discussion. If I had known that it would have brought this influence to the board in this manner, I would not have done so.
May God grant His grace and peace to them that are His.
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From JamesJerry2:
Apology accepted. Now we can get back to fighting each other.
For those in the ministry and those training to be, how much more time could we devote to our respective works if we left this site to rot. Sigh, I am weening myself. It is fun and challenging, but fer sure not much edifying.
Just rambling in the night here. Wife and kids out of town. I am sure some of you understand. OK. I will shut up now.
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From Richard Boyce:
I think all this site does is solidify us all into our respective positions.
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From Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk:
The Lord told His servants and brethren, such as we are, what to expect:
“And you shall be hated by all for My Name’s sake” (Luke 21:17 MKJV).
Which is much different from what happens with the tares like Calvin and Spurgeon:
“Woe to you when all men shall speak well of you! For so their fathers did to the false prophets” (Luke 6:26 MKJV)
You have scrounged the cesspools of the net, drudging up every word every liar has spoken against us without any examination or care for proof and veracity. You consume it all equally because of your enmity with God. You do not examine because you are incapable of righteous judgment. You people are totally irresponsible against the truth, against the Lord Jesus Christ. You can do nothing but judge unrighteously, bickering amongst yourselves, and uniting only in your condemnation of God coming in the flesh, His Anointed Body.
You have been judged, and all will know it.
For others who may come here and who have any shred of desire for truth and equity, which even this corrupt world requires by law in its courts, here are links to the actual full correspondences we had with the detractors gathered by Richard Boyce on this blog. Unlike those who unjustly condemn us, leaving out much if not all of what we have said to them, we provide all the words of both sides.
Aquatechnology: A Pygmy Acts Like King Kong
Otter Fodder: Imperfection Tries to Argue Against Perfection
The Contemporary Calvinist: Making Sport of Holy Things
The voice of one crying out in suburbia…: Too Hot to Handle
Building missional churches in 21st century: Desiring a Murderer
Reflections of the Times: Calvinism with a Feminine Touch
Deo Volente: Flushing Out a Snake
Possessing the Treasure: Unmasking the Murderer’s Disciple
Discerning the World: Not Done in a Corner
Victor Hafichuk