NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

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Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Jacob » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:24 pm



(This is an archived correspondence at The Path of Truth. We have sent notification to the correspondent.)


To the path of truth,

Thank yall for yall's evangelization and willingness to spread the Word of God. Christ is Lord now and forever and the more people that realize that and live by that Truth, the more prepared this world will be for His coming. the reason I am emailing yall is because some of the things stated on yall's website are not true. I know yall are trying hard to spread the truth. This means yall have a great desire to learn and grow and spread truth.
I am simply writing this email in order to help yall in that task.

I came across an article by Victor Hafichuk concerning the Catholic Church. In that article he stated that the Catholic Church is certainly not the bride of Christ but in fact a ”vicious slut”. Although I am a very proud Catholic and I truly do love Catholicism, I take no offense to this very unchristian accusation. I have heard worse and I am happy that he is passionate about his Christianity. My concern is twofold.

Firstly, he is taking a very extreme account of history in his article. His historical points are over exaggerated and far, far too simplistic. Having said that, I have no problem at all admitting that he is correct in stating that the Church has certainly made her fair share of mistakes throughout history. She has indeed committed several ”atrocities” as he mentioned. The recent popes have also admitted to that and apologized to the world for it. People commit sins while using a name to do it. When I sin, I am doing so out of my free will, not any doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Although in the time of the reformation, the Church was selling indulgences, this was never a doctrine or truth that was solidified by the Church as a whole. Christ established a bride, one that is human. Being human means being sinful unfortunately. We as humans made that mistake and we remake that mistake over and over again on a daily basis (Thank the good Lord for His infinite mercy).

Besides the rather rough historicity cited in the article, he also seemed to use very poor logic. His argument seemed to be that because Catholics throughout history have sinned greatly, they cannot be the bride of Christ. However, he considers himself to be the bride of Christ which means he believes he is without sin or Christ died for his sins and not those that followed Christ for the first 1500 years before Protestantism was founded.

If he does admit that he too is a sinner, then why would that only include him or his part of Christianity and exclude Catholicism, the Church that formed the Bible, maintained the traditions of the apostles and Early Church Fathers, the Church that largely shaped western culture, the Church that established education for all people and not just the nobles, the Church that established public health care, the Church that (contrary to false and biased history) actually helped more Jews and hid more Jews (in the Vatican and elsewhere) during WWII, the Church that has been persecuted and suffered more martyrdoms in witness of Christ and His love than any other Christian denomination in the world.

The purpose of this letter is to let you know that NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church. Whether you agree with Catholic doctrine or not, Christianity exists because Christ promised In Mt. that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Kingdom He establishes on earth. He has held true to this promise, but He has done it through the Catholic Church for at least the first 1500 years.

To say that the Catholic Church is anti-Christian or a false-Christianity or Church of some sort simply because her members are sinners is to say that Christ did not take the ”good” thief, that died next to Him, to Heaven. It is to say that Christ's redemptive sacrifice was not so efficacious after all. Essentially, it is to say that all are hell-bound because Christ's death was not capable of overcoming the sins of man. At the least, it is to say that Christ is not powerful and mighty enough to establish and maintain a Kingdom on earth despite how sinful we all are. I am not willing to say any of that.

Christ truly is our Lord who suffered, died, and rose for us. His redemption and mercy are limitless. Catholics and non-Catholics alike are given the necessary graces to enter into Heaven so long as they, by the power of those graces, cooperate with them as St. Paul states in various letters. I will pray for yall and for yall's organization, that yall might bear much good fruit from yall's efforts. Please, pray for me and always be open to truth because truth is not so much a thing to be had or coveted, but the Person of Christ, who is to be loved and adored.

God bless,
Jacob
Jacob
 

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Victor Hafichuk » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:00 pm



Hi Jacob,

You certainly write a diplomatic letter and it does help to deal with the issues before us. Understand that if my words and spirit seem dogmatic, what I have to say is not to condemn Catholics but Catholicism. I condemn Catholicism in no uncertain terms and for good reason.

God condemns Catholicism and He has appointed me to speak up against this horrid system of doctrine and practice, these works of men that destroy, if ever so beautifully… or not. It was not my original idea or intent to do what I now do, but who am I to make decisions on such matters? Jesus Christ awakened me in 1973 from this world, this realm of death and darkness and in due time received me into His Kingdom. In this Kingdom, I see the difference between truth and error and between those who do good and those who do evil in His sight:

Malachi 3:16-18 MKJV
(16) Then those fearing the LORD spoke together, each man to his neighbor. And the LORD listened and heard. And a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who feared the LORD, and for those esteeming His Name.
(17) And they shall be Mine, says the LORD of Hosts, for the day that I will make up My treasure. And I will pity them as a man has pity on his son who serves him.
(18) Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves God, and him who does not serve Him.

Let me speak the factual truth bluntly but with perfectly good will toward you, Jacob. You have never known the Lord Jesus Christ or His will. This is not a matter of my frail human understanding or opinion but the reality of The Spiritual Truth of God hidden to many. If you knew and truly loved God, worshipping Him in spirit and truth, you would have nothing more to do with this Catholicism you insist you love and champion. It's that simple.

This is not a case of Gnosticism as some may surmise. It is what the apostle and brother Paul spoke of, which is available to all those whom the Lord apprehends for His glory:

1 Corinthians 2:9-16 MKJV
(9) But as it is written, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,” nor has it entered into the heart of man, “the things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
(10) But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
(11) For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
(12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
(13) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Those aren't Victor's words or his interpretation of them. Those words are straight from Holy Scripture, which, the Catholic Church falsely claims to be the mother of. Here are more words to substantiate what I say:

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 MKJV
(26) For you see your calling, brothers, that not many wise men according to the flesh are called, not many mighty, not many noble.
(27) But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
(28) and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing things that are;
(29) so that no flesh should glory in His presence.
(30) But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption;
(31) so that, according as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

In their wisdom and learning, your theologians and clergy are ignorant of the thoughts and ways, will and wisdom of God. Jesus said:

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because You have hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in Your sight” (Matthew 11:25-26 KJV).

So it is. Paul was once a greatly educated man, superior to many in knowledge and religious status, but when God apprehended him, he was made another man, one who received the Life Spirit of God. Of his former theological learning and status, he declared:

Philippians 3:3-7 MKJV
(3) For we are the circumcision who worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh;
(4) though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other thinks that he has reason to trust in the flesh, I more.
(5) I was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews. As regards the Law, I was a Pharisee;
(6) concerning zeal, persecuting the church; regarding the righteousness in the Law, blameless.
(7) But whatever things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Jacob, I know whereof I speak, being granted to perceive and understand these things from above for myself. By God's grace alone, I have staked my life on what He has revealed to me, losing all things for His sake. This has been since February of 1973. Read Victor Hafichuks Testimony and Victors First Three Dreams from the Lord.

There is the Message of God and the counterfeit message of God. To the world, the Message and Gospel of God seem foolish, but the message of men presented in God's Name seems wise. Many are the deceived, taking the broad way, and few there are who have been granted the constricted gate to pass through and the narrow path to travel.

The Church of Rome hasn't made mere mistakes, I assure you. It IS a “mistake” and a grievously evil one at that, a concoction of scheming carnal men who have sought their own gain instead of God's glory. Nothing extreme here. There are no words to adequately describe the evils of false religion and its impact on the world, Catholic, Protestant or otherwise.

Not that I rely on these reports (I have no need to), but have you watched PBS Frontline's Secrets of the Vatican (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... e-vatican/)?

As for you personally, you say, “When I sin, I am doing so out of my free will, not any doctrine of the Catholic Church.

And brother John replies:

1 John 3:8-10 MKJV
(8) He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
(9) Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
(10) In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother.

As a Catholic until age 27, I had no idea I could be free of sinning, not until Jesus Christ made Himself known to me, forgave and washed me of my sins, cleansing my conscience of all guilt. He can and will do the same for you. It is the reality for all those who earnestly call on His Name. He makes them saints - holy, sanctified, set-apart ones, called out by God and not classified and designated by corrupt men.

All true believers are saints. This is so contrary to the presumption, sorcery, and witchcrafts of the Catholic Church. As a Catholic, you are a captive of the prince of this world and only Jesus Christ can make you free, even as He promised:

“And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32 MKJV).

“Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed” (John 8:36 MKJV).

As to the difference between me and members of the Catholic Church, I am a saint, one of many and of all those who comprise the True Body of Christ:

“For also we all were baptized [immersed] by one Spirit into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, even all were given to drink into one Spirit” (1 Corinthians 12:13 LITV).

You err when you think any man can be a member of His Body, His Congregation/Church. No, only those who have been granted the heavenly gift of repentance and have had their sins forgiven (not by a man but by Jesus Christ), and have received the Spirit of God, are members of the Body of Christ. Almost anyone can join an earthly church organization but only God joins a soul to His Body and brings him into His Kingdom.

This explains why you have sin reigning in the Catholic Church, an organization of sinners, not saints. Christ's Body is comprised of saints, albeit those who have by no means completed their spiritual sojourn on earth of cleansing and being made whole. Saints can sin but they do not maintain sin, nor are they bound to live sinful lives, not at all.

You speak much falsehood about the Catholic Church, its nature, origin, and deeds. You haven't objectively studied church history, and you certainly don't know the testimony of the Scriptures or their Author. I could go item by item in your letter and counter the many falsehoods, but suffice it for now to say you need to be delivered from great darkness and error.

Again, read my testimony, Jacob, and if you want details, read http://www.thepathoftruth.com/auto/index.htm. The answers to your questions and objections are all there, as well as in the Scriptures.

You close with, “Please, pray for me and always be open to truth because truth is not so much a thing to be had or coveted, but the Person of Christ, who is to be loved and adored.” Not that I refuse to pray for you, Jacob (I don't), but there's much error in both spirit and substance in those words that on the surface may seem righteous and godly. Now, I call on you to be open to the Truth.

Read avidly and attentively at our site and pray as you've never prayed. Seek the Lord that you may find Him and hear His voice, and if you're granted to know the Truth at this time, He'll reveal Himself to you and you'll know and understand what I've been saying to be nothing but the Truth and no error, all praise and glory to Him.

It's always our hope and prayer that men come to the Light of all men and are made free indeed. One day in the ages to come, all will rejoice together in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of all men. He has arranged for it to be so, long before this earth and man were formed.

Read The Good News - not what you, by the title, may expect to read.

Victor
Victor Hafichuk
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Jacob » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:40 am



Victor,

Thank you for your reply to my email. You stated at the beginning that I have an ability to write a diplomatic letter. Therefore, let me be a little less diplomatic and a little more clear.

Firstly, you mentioned that you do not condemn Catholics, only the Catholic Church. Immediately your argument falls short because the members are the Church. The Catholic Church is not a building or an elitist institution but the people of God as One Body, the Bride of Christ (Romans 12: 5). Therefore, when you condemn the Catholic Church, whether you think you are or not, whether you mean to or not, you are condemning Catholics. Judgment is a task that belongs to God alone.

Secondly, mostly, all of your arguments are simply and ONLY supported by you saying “I know this or I know that” to be true b/c it has been revealed to you. This is NOT a credible or logical rebuttal or premise. I know it to not be true but I would not try to convince you that it is not true simply because I know its not. Logical demonstration is necessary because we are humans who use reason.

Obviously, faith is an absolutely powerful and beautiful gift from God that is necessary for salvation; however, that does not mean we should trample or disregard the use of rational thinking, which is also a gift from God. Please bring me arguments or points that are logical rather than just what you know or think has been revealed to you. In my first letter I brought to your attention where your original argument was lacking in reason. Your response to my first letter gave no defense or correction to that.

Thirdly, you claim that I have not had any objective Church History; however, I would suggest that no history is completely objective. The best we can do is to read SEVERAL and do the best we can through prayer and humility to come to the truth.

FYI, The Church History I grew up learning in school was very anti-Catholic; I am familiar with both sides. You say I do not have an accurate account of Church History, when you actually used a PBS program as a source for your understanding for the corruption of the Vatican. Please tell me that is not your source. Do you think maybe it is possible that just maybe the author of the television program got it wrong or has a bias of his own as you clearly do. Not everything on television is objective truth unfortunately. Even the History Channel gets it wrong from time to time.

The fact is the New Testament Scriptures you use to debunked the Catholic Church's credibility are given to you by the Catholic Church. That is objective and indisputable fact. You have the Catholic Church to thank for those being translated and passed down to you. Obviously, we all have God to thank first and foremost for the incredible gift of the Scriptures and His hand in guiding the early Catholics in forming the canon of Scripture. However, it is the monks and early saints, like St. Jerome who studied handed down, copied and translated this inspired gift from God. Again, this is objective fact.

Regarding your verses such as Phil. 3:3-7, Mt. 11:25-26, I Cor. 1:26-31, I completely agree that God uses the weak and manifests His greatness in overcoming and deposing the strong (according to the eyes of the world) through the weak. The Church has never disagreed with that statement; however, it seems to me that you think that means that God only uses the weak and dumb.

St. Paul himself was a very learned Jew that was not all of a sudden dumb after his conversion. We are supposed to learn more about Christ. This does not mean that knowledge is the only way to Christ... But as humans, we are able to love people the more we get to know people. In that same way, the more we know Christ, the more we can love Him. Knowledge can interfere in our journey to Christ if we leave out love and make knowledge some sort of god as gnostics do to some degree or another; however, knowledge can also lead me to Christ to some degree or another. It cannot ever be a substitute for an authentic relationship with Him, but it can help on the journey.

For example, the knowledge/truth, that takes faith to accept, that Christ is both God and man fully is good for me to know and can benefit my relationship with Christ.

Fourthly, your use of I John 3:8-10 certainly is a new one on me. I have discussed religion and truth with several Christians and non-Christians, but until now I have not come across any that believe themselves to be sinLESS. One thing I hope we agree on is that inspired Scripture, truth, cannot and does not contradict itself. Your subjective interpretation of I John 3 directly contradicts several different passages throughout Scripture. St. Paul, obviously after his conversion, is still concerned with “falling away”, going to hell.

For instance, ”But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” - 1 Corinthians 9:27.

Later in this same letter, St. Paul discusses how important it is for him to FINISH the race because sin, falling away, not finishing the race is a real and distinct possibility. Obviously Peter was one who loved Christ greatly throughout his time with Christ. He ate, drank, prayed, loved, walked, and lived with Christ. He clearly knew him well and served him, yet he still denied Christ 3 times just before Christ's death. It seems to me that you believe yourself to know Christ better than Peter. This is the same apostle that Christ called CEPHAS, the rock, upon which He (Christ) builds His Church. Christ told Peter this before he denied Him 3 times.

James 5:13-16: “13 Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick?* He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord,j 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Now a logical and coherent understanding of this verse in context of the Bible as a whole teaches that even those in the family of God sin. Contextually, this is describing people that are already following Christ. Therefore, those that have honestly submitted to our Lord may fall into sin. Therefore, they should go to the priest when they are spiritually sick and through the power of God working through the GOD-GIVEN authority of the priests, those sinners' sins may be forgiven.

Tell me, where are your presbyters that can forgive sins by the power of God. These are just a few verses that explain to us that God calls us to be perfect while maintaining and offering great mercy and love to us when we fail.
unfortunately, there is no sin switch that gets flipped at Baptism.

You claim that the Catholic Church is so evil. I agree that many atrocities have been committed by Catholics in the name of the Church. I know that and understand that. Many popes have apologized for many of the public atrocities throughout the years.

However, there is no measure of how much good Catholics have done in the name of the Church and by the grace of God. For example, St. Francis, Father Damian Molokai, St. Maximilain Kolbe are all people that lived their lives embracing the poor, the outcast, the lame, the beaten, the lepers... 2 of them even died doing so. How many lepers have you embraced, fed, cleaned, and loved? Mother Theresa sure did not hesitate to love each person that came to door of her convent. She lived with the most poor of India. She bathed and fed those that were incapable of doing so on her own. How many people have you bathed when nobody else would go near them or touch them.

My point is not to condemn, for all I know you are doing these things. My point is that there are millions of Catholics that have done these works of mercy found in the gospel for 2 thousand years. You may not agree with my theology or my Church history, but you cannot disagree with the fact that the lives of countless Catholics throughout history have born witness to Christ's life on earth in some way. Mother Theresa largely converted India to Christianity just by the way she immolated Christ's life to those around her (I know you don't consider this true Christianity, but that's beside the point). She did not viciously attack or condemn others that disagreed with her, she loved them by trying to live as Christ did. Even she and any and every other saint never, never claimed to be sinless after their conversion.

Lastly, I appreciate your passion for spreading the good news. I do think some people need to hear a message of love that is blunt and direct; however, that is very different from a message that is condemning, illogical, and directly born out of a lack of love toward others, which I believe your message is whether you agree or not.

No Church on earth has as many martyrs that have not only died, but suffered tortuous, atrocious and unspeakable deaths in order to witness to their faith and join in the sufferings Christ so humbly endured on our behalf.

I do not know all of what your past entails (only so much can be explained in a conversion story); however, I do believe that you have been deeply wounded in some way by the members or a member of the Church. If that is the case and to the extent that it is the case, I apologize as a Catholic on behalf of Catholics. I am truly sorry for any suffering you may have incurred by someone claiming to operate in the name of Catholicism. Although we are one Body, we often lose our way, reject the grace God offers to us in the Church and hurt other innocent people in the process. This is why God's infinite mercy is so beautiful, superabundant, and absolutely needed.

I do and will continue to pray for you as I hope you pray for me. You told me that my ending note in the last email had problems with it. Until you give me a logically demonstrable explanation as to why that is the case, I will continue to end our correspondence with the same note. Keep seeking truth, but do it openly, honestly and humbly as I pray that I continue to do the same.

God bless,
Jacob
Crux stat dum volvitur mundum.


On Monday, February 9, 2015 10:24 PM, Jacob wrote:

Dad,

Remember when I told you that I wrote a letter to a very anticatholic site. Here is the response. This one is a new for me.
Jacob
 

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Victor Hafichuk » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:30 am



Hi Jake!

I thought that though you were friendly (“diplomatic”), you were quite clear, no less than you are now. I have understood where you're coming from.

I get your point about condemning Catholics if I condemn your organization. In a certain respect, that may be true; however, while I wouldn't hesitate to destroy your organization, idols, practices, and doctrine, I would certainly choose to save you from them. Does that help differentiate?

Furthermore, by God's grace, I love Catholics but I do not love Catholicism; I abhor it. If I abhorred you, I wouldn't be giving you the time of day, believe me, unless to thoroughly condemn you. I'm nowhere near to doing that.

Secondly, mostly, all of your arguments are simply and ONLY supported by you saying 'I know this or I know that' to be true b/c it has been revealed to you. This is NOT a credible or logical rebuttal or premise. I know it to not be true but I would not try to convince you that it is not true simply because I know its not. Logical demonstration is necessary because we are humans who use reason.

Moses came saying, “I know.” The prophets till John did so. John the Immerser came speaking revelation, not what you might call rational, provable or even reasonable fact.

Jesus came declaring many things of Himself that people did not believe. He said He was the Door, the Water of Life, the Bread of Life, the Christ. Yet, they asked Him, “Are you the Christ? Tell us,” and He said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe” (Luke 22:67 MKJV).

Paul came declaring he was an apostle. How was he to prove his claim rationally? And as they didn't believe Jesus Christ or the prophets and apostles who spoke by revelation from God, so you find yourself incapable of believing because of your spiritual state.

Jake, I kindly tell you that you are yet dead in your sins. You know that for yourself, but you don't believe there's a deliverance in this life from the power of sin. You know nothing of these realities, nothing at all. If you did, you would no longer be Catholic, neither could you ever be.

That is truth I can't prove to you; it must be received from above by supernatural intervention.

You're mistaken if you think I contemn reasoning. Any rational person knows God has given us the power to reason, but far fewer people know He also gives revelation to whom He chooses. You have only ever operated by carnal reason, which, Paul declares, is at enmity with God and revelation:

“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be” (Romans 8:6-7 MKJV).

I know what I know and declare it. None of the prophets or apostles could deny what they knew. Jesus Christ couldn't deny what He knew. He said to the religious Jews who didn't believe His testimony:

“If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father Who glorifies Me, of Whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word” (John 8:54-55 MKJV).

None of the saints (believers in Christ) could deny what they knew by revelation. Jesus said to Peter: “You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven” (Matthew 16:17 MKJV).

Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not know these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, We speak what we know and testify what we have seen. And you do not receive our witness” (John 3:10-11 MKJV).

Do you presume to be a teacher of the things of God without knowing these things, Jacob?

Again, Jesus said to Nicodemus:

John 3:6-8 MKJV
(6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
(7) Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again.
(8) The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

You ought not to despise the revelation of God, but you can do no other than, seeing you haven't been born from above.

To the Samaritan woman, Jesus declared what believing Jews knew, not what they reasoned:

John 4:22-24 MKJV
(22) You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
(23) But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.
(24) God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

Jacob, you can't worship God with the carnal mind any more than a rock can swim.

In my first letter I brought to your attention where your original argument was lacking in reason. Your response to my first letter gave no defense or correction to that.

You'll have to specify. I have no problem answering your arguments; however, what I did say was, “I could go item by item in your letter and counter the many falsehoods,” and “Again, read my testimony, Jacob, and if you want details, read http://www.thepathoftruth.com/auto/index.htm. The answers to your questions and objections are all there, as well as in the Scriptures.”

Not everything on television is objective truth unfortunately. Even the History Channel gets it wrong from time to time.

I agree that history is written by mortal men, often the conquerors. Napoleon once said, “History is a myth agreed upon.” So we'll need to know for ourselves what is true or false. The only way we're ever able to do that is to receive understanding directly from God...revelation. You'll not get to the bottom of things by your reasoning, which is corrupt and prejudiced. This I know as fact, by revelation.

No, I'm not at all reliant on sources from men, but as a saint, I have the ability to judge all things, even as the Scriptures clearly declare:

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 MKJV
(12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
(13) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Jacob, you are a natural man until Christ comes to live within. As a natural man, you can't get what I'm saying; it's impossible. I know these things by a new birth and revelation. Yes, I know, I know, I know; no apologies, only thankfulness. One day, you'll understand. Condescending? I hope not; just plain Truth - Reality.

The fact is the New Testament Scriptures you use to debunked the Catholic Church's credibility are given to you by the Catholic Church. That is objective and indisputable fact.

You are entirely wrong on that, Jacob. Historical records amply prove otherwise. The Catholic Church has been the enemy of Truth and the Scriptures. However, so as to not depend on “reason” and men's sources (as we seem to have agreed upon?) I can tell you that in the spring of 1973, the Lord laid me up for a few days with Paul's epistles and revealed to me that what the apostle Paul taught and what the Catholic Church taught and practised was as white is to black, diametrically opposed.

Again, revelation from God - “getting it from the horse's mouth.” You can't beat that, as much as you appeal to reason, yet refuse it as erroneous when given it contrary to your reason.

The Church has never disagreed with that statement; however, it seems to me that you think that means that God only uses the weak and dumb.

I think no such thing. Jacob, read at our site and you'll run out of false assumptions and straw men soon enough. And we won't waste time and energy in redundant conversation.

Because I speak of revelation from God and say we can't know the things of God by our own power doesn't make me a “gnostic.” It makes me someone who knows what he says is true and thus, someone who can only acknowledge that all those who call on the Name of the Lord with all their hearts to do His will can also receive His knowledge and understanding:

“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction” (Proverbs 1:7 KJV).

There's no claim to a monopoly on truth or desire to keep secrets in order to exercise power over others. By God's grace, in me burns the desire to speak the Truth for the sake of all.

On the topic of “sinlessness” and what the Lord has taught me, and which is thoroughly substantiated in the Scriptures, which the Catholic Church loathes to believe though it claims to be their mother, do read Do Christians Sin?

You write: “Obviously Peter was one who loved Christ greatly throughout his time with Christ. He ate, drank, prayed, loved, walked, and lived with Christ. He clearly knew him well and served him, yet he still denied Christ 3 times just before Christ's death. It seems to me that you believe yourself to know Christ better than Peter.

At the time Peter denied the Lord, he hadn't been converted (Luke 22:32). You're still using the “old Peter” to support an erroneous argument, not having become the new creation in Christ yourself.

As to my now knowing Christ better than did Peter before he was born again, it's true; I certainly do, as does every born again believer. Jesus Himself said so, in the Scriptures. Would you like to see where, Jacob?

You continue on Peter:

This is the same apostle that Christ called CEPHAS, the rock, upon which He (Christ) builds His Church. Christ told Peter this before he denied Him 3 times.

No man is the Rock of God but the Rock of God, Jesus Christ, and His Testimony in man. You err, as the Catholic you are. All those born again are stones forming His Temple, His Body, of which Christ is the Cornerstone. Peter himself said so:

1 Peter 2:4-10 MKJV
(4) For having been drawn to Him, a living Stone, indeed rejected by men, but elect, precious with God;
(5) you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
(6) Therefore also it is contained in the Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner Stone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him shall never be ashamed.
(7) Therefore to you who believe is the honor. But to those who are disobedient, He is the Stone which the builders rejected; this One came to be the Head of the corner,
(8) and a Stone-of-stumbling and a Rock-of-offense to those disobeying, who stumble at the Word, to which they also were appointed.
(9) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
(10) you who then were not a people, but now the people of God, those not pitied then, but now pitied.

Regarding James 5:13-16, you say:

Now a logical and coherent understanding of this verse in context of the Bible as a whole teaches that even those in the family of God sin. Contextually, this is describing people that are already following Christ. Therefore, those that have honestly submitted to our Lord may fall into sin. Therefore, they should go to the priest when they are spiritually sick and through the power of God working through the GOD-GIVEN authority of the priests, those sinners' sins may be forgiven.

You will find answers in Do Christians Sin? Meanwhile, I will say to you that true Christians may sin but they do not live and walk in sin as do Catholics and so many others. There's a great deal of difference. You, as a carnal man, cannot help but sin, being a sinner, a fallen man not raised up from the grave by the Power of His Resurrection into New Life.

Catholic priests have no God-given authority to forgive anybody's sins because they have nothing to do with the Lord Jesus Christ. I have never met a priest, whether in the Catholic Church or any other, who has power to forgive sins; there is no such thing. The claim is naive at best, fraudulent and blasphemous at worst.

“Where are the elders I know who can forgive sins?” you ask. We know them and they are not ordained of men, but of God. It won't be long before you know it, Jacob.

You claim that the Catholic Church is so evil. I agree that many atrocities have been committed by Catholics in the name of the Church. I know that and understand that. Many popes have apologized for many of the public atrocities throughout the years.

There is nothing holy or clean of the behemoth of 1.3 billion. You'll see that what is highly esteemed among men is indeed abomination with God, even as He said. She, the RCC, is being brought down as we speak.

As for your good works claims of the RCC, how many lepers did John the Immerser or Peter or Paul wash? What is your standard of measure if not one by judgment after the appearance, Jacob? “Though I give my body to be burned and have not love....” Many have given their bodies. What of it?

You write of Teresa:

She did not viciously attack or condemn others that disagreed with her, she loved them by trying to live as Christ did. Even she and any and every other saint never, never claimed to be sinless after their conversion.

“Viciously attack”? Accuse me if you will; I condemn evil, not after the appearance only, but by righteous judgment. As for Teresa, the term “anti-Christ” does not mean “against Christ,” but “in place or instead of.” Teresa is anti-Christ and one day you'll find that out. In men's sight, she was a heroine; in God's sight, a witch (rebel/child of iniquity). She was a counterfeiter, a great pretender seeking glory for herself; she had no idea Who Christ was or how He thinks or works or how He would have her worship Him, no idea at all; she was indeed a highly presumptuous and arrogant woman. However, after the fires of correction, she will come to understanding.

You will see how blind you've been to man's mock righteousness. You are strongly deluded and in denial, Jacob. Do I tell you this in enmity? No. Am I putting you down? If I do, it's with the sole purpose of lifting you up. If Truth is found to be against your ways, you take offense at it. This isn't Victor's fault or doing, but Jacob's.

I am not your enemy - you are. I'm only truthfully informing you that you are your own enemy. It's true; the Lord personally and by the Bible says so. That Book is as foreign to you as the farthest reaches of known space.

I do believe that you have been deeply wounded in some way by the members or a member of the Church.

I can't think of any wounding and I bear no man a grudge, Jacob, not one. For the sake of complete transparency, I have had a prolonged struggle with one person from early childhood, which I've had to deal with, but it had nothing whatsoever to do with religion or any church. By will, I have forgiven him, knowing that unless I forgive, my Heavenly Father can't forgive me because it was by His wise and capable hand the evil befell me by that person in preparation for God's calling on my life decades later. This I know now.

If that is the case and to the extent that it is the case, I apologize as a Catholic on behalf of Catholics. I am truly sorry for any suffering you may have incurred by someone claiming to operate in the name of Catholicism.

It isn't the case at all, but I honestly believe you mean well by your words here, though with very limited understanding; I really do, Jacob; it witnesses with me.

As for suffering, whatever I've suffered I've either needed or deserved. I can truly be thankful for it all. I know that Jesus Christ reigns supreme over all - there I go again - I “know” it. I do.

You needn't apologize for the Catholic Church; you need to come out of it. Only one apology can be real and true and that is that God delivers you from Catholicism as He did me - all glory, power, honor, thanksgiving and praise to Him.

God bless you for your zeal to seek after God as you do, albeit in ignorance. I will pray for you, and I'll do it right now.

I ask You, Father, to grant faith and repentance to this man and guide him into Truth. I ask You to mercifully deliver Jacob (and his father) from the darkness of this world and its prince, from sin, from the power of the flesh, from himself.

I ask, Father, that You will give Jacob the enlightenment he so sorely needs in his hour of temptation and conviction of his error. I thank You for bringing him that he may hear Your Word of Truth. Your Word is like a hammer that breaks rock, like fire that is unquenchable. I know that when You send out Your Word, it will accomplish Your intended purpose.

We can trust You implicitly for that; great is Your faithfulness! Your Word is Eternal Truth, against which nothing can stand. Thank You, Lord Jesus, that You have laid down Your life and taken it up again for all our sakes. I thank You for Your great mercy and forgiveness through the gifts of faith and repentance. Thank You!

Jacob, you have friends here, by God's grace, should the Lord ever grant you to take advantage of them for good.

Read the links I've given you. My more complete story is at wHaT tHe LoRd HaS dOnE wItH mE. It tells all, with more to come.

I've gotten into several matters I had no intention of getting into with you. No problem. The Lord is Mighty; He'll take care of it all.

Contending for the faith once delivered to the saints, a joyful privilege,

Victor
Victor Hafichuk
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Jacob » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:48 pm



Victor,

Thank you for your email once again. Whatever keeps us learning about God's revelation through Scripture, in faith, is a great gift and beneficial in many regards.

I know that you are not trying to condemn Catholics as individuals. I do believe that what you are doing comes from a desire to help people know Christ, to get out of our own way, as we humans need to do in order to hear Him. My issue is HOW you are doing it. Only God is the judge of hearts. He is the only one who knows who is deserving of eternal punishment. Although He does reveal to us sins and lifestyles that lead people to hell, He is the only one that knows each person intimately and objectively. He knows their intentions, circumstances… Not even the “infamous” Catholic Church presumes to know the limits of His mercy, which is infinite and beyond our ability to understand (because of our finite minds…).

To your first point:

You ought not to despise the revelation of God, but you can do no other than, seeing you haven't been born from above.

I would never deny that God's truth is above our rational minds. Faith is absolutely essential. However, faith cooperates with and completes reason. It directs human reason to its fulfillment. In the same way that faith is a magnificent gift from God, so is reason. It is reason that largely separates Adam from the animals in Genesis. Reason is so beautiful simply because it is by reason that we are able to not only acknowledge but also dialogue with God. Because it is a gift from God, He reveals Himself to us through our reason WITH faith of course. These two gifts do not contradict each other or trample one another. My request for logical arguments is not because I refuse to believe that which is beyond reason (I do have faith contrary to your beliefs), but because His revelation to man is not devoid or against reason. I imagine most of this is not a topic in which we disagree. My point is to demonstrate that the articles of faith can be explained and taught using reason as well. Although Paul was teaching great truths that go beyond reason, he was explaining them in a way logical demonstrable manner. I believe this is why he uses so many analogies and metaphors throughout his epistles (especially 1 Corinthians (running the race…)).

You have given me a great deal of homework to read. In the spirit of equality I ask that you read Fides et Ratio. You can google it and find it fairly quickly. It would help you understand better the relationship faith and reason share in the context of faith.

Jacob, you can't worship God with the carnal mind any more than a rock can swim.

God asks us to worship him completely. This means with all of our being. 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. Mt. 22: 35-37.

God does not give us gifts that we are not able to offer back to Him. In faith, of course, we are able to and asked to give everything, including our carnal mind to him. Paul uses the “flesh” and “carnal” linking them to sin and the temporal goods that distract us from giving our entire beings to God.

I am not against personal revelation. In fact, the Catholic Church has for hundreds and hundreds of years and still does teach that personal revelation is possible and a great gift from God. This teaching is still in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the compilation of the truths handed down from God to humanity.

The only way we're ever able to do that is to receive understanding directly from God...revelation. You'll not get to the bottom of things by your reasoning, which is corrupt and prejudiced. This I know as fact, by revelation.

God gives revelation as He, in His infinite wisdom and goodness, sees fit. However, the whole idea of evangelization, something you clearly take seriously as you should, is that we are to spread that which He gives us. This means God's revelation comes to the many through the few. This is not opposed to the idea and fact that a person can only accept these “ever-ancient, ever-new” truths by His grace acting on and in us.

A few other men that have as you have claimed direct revelation from God that actually contradicts various truths handed to down to us through Scripture is Mohammed, Joseph Smith (Mormons), Charles Russell (Jehovah's Witness), and many others. Although the Catholic Church is absolutely welcoming to and accepting of individual or private revelation, She is not okay with private revelation that opposes clear truths found in Scripture. Because it is so easy to misinterpret or alter the meaning of Scripture (as you believe the Catholic Church does), it is vital to have consistency in doctrine with the early Christians and the apostles that actually heard Christ teach in that specific language, society and culture.

This is also where the logic is so important. In so far as a revelation clashes with ancient doctrine given by Christ and/or natural God-given reason, then it is insufficient.

Second Point:

You are entirely wrong on that, Jacob. Historical records amply prove otherwise. The Catholic Church has been the enemy of Truth and the Scriptures. However, so as to not depend on “reason” and men's sources (as we seem to have agreed upon?) I can tell you that in the spring of 1973, the Lord laid me up for a few days with Paul's epistles and revealed to me that what the apostle Paul taught and what the Catholic Church taught and practised was as white is to black, diametrically opposed.

Victor, I grew up with anti-Catholic history books. I have read several histories concerning the early Christians and the compilation of Scriptures. I have not come across anything that denies that it was the Catholic Church that formed the canon of Scripture. In fact, Martin Luther, the first Protestant who was elemental in setting the Reformation into effect in the 16th century, never denied that fact. He simply disagreed with 7 books of the Old Testament. Which is why that KJV Bible you use has the exact canon as the Catholic Bible minus those 7 books. I understand disagreeing with the Roman Catholic Church on several issues; however, I do not understand just disregarding historical fact in order to not give any credit. Even an argument that suggested that the Catholic Church formed the canon but misinterprets it entirely is a more logical and credible argument. I am not suggesting that the Catholic Church should be given “kudos” for this because it was only through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the canon was set in stone. True revelation is above all earthly knowledge; however, in so far as it is true Revelation, then it does not oppose historical fact and human knowledge. True Revelation is above and fuller than human knowledge, which does NOT mean contradictory to it. True Revelation is a truth which per se (through itself and by definition) does not and cannot contradict other truth. They are complimentary.

I am a natural man as you are. God made us that way, and after He did so “31 God looked at everything he had made, and found it very good. Gen. 1:31. However, He, in His goodness, calls us to be supernatural by means of His Son. Growing in His likeness and being grafted into His Body, by His grace and faith (which is also His grace), is our full and eschatological calling. Thanks be to God.

Third Point:

straw men

I am glad you are familiar with this term. The first sign of this idea as a logical fallacy comes from Aristotle's work on rhetoric. Although he himself does not exactly explain this fallacy or name it this, he does give examples that are relatively the same idea. I used no such fallacy in my arguments. I simply took your argument to its logical conclusion. Regardless, it is possible that I misunderstood one of your arguments. If that is the case, I do apologize. I am sincerely trying to find the truth and your words and arguments; I simply am not finding very much of it. Again, logic is not contrary to revelation or truth, it is a rational and valid means by which truth ought to be conveyed to others.

Third point:

At the time Peter denied the Lord, he hadn't been converted (Luke 22:32). You're still using the “old Peter” to support an erroneous argument, not having become the new creation in Christ yourself.

I do not presume to be able to judge Peter's heart before or after Christ's death. I do know that it was Peter that had enough faith to step out of the boat to go to Christ walking on the water. Although his faith was insufficient to reach Christ, nobody else got out of the boat. John did not even attempt leaving the pseudo safety of the boat and he was at the Crucifixion. Is it not possible that he had converted, but this conversion is a journey, a process, rather than a single moment. Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP with God. This means growth, failure, repentance, and ideally a journey further and further toward Him. It does not mean instantaneous perfection where mistakes are rarely made.

The Mission of the Twelve. 1 Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to drive them out and to cure every disease and every illness. 2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus; 4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him.

The Commissioning of the Twelve. 5 Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, “Do not go into pagan territory or enter a Samaritan town. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, make this proclamation: 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, drive out demons. Without cost you have received; without cost you are to give. 9 Do not take gold or silver or copper for your belts; 10 no sack for the journey, or a second tunic, or sandals, or walking stick. The laborer deserves his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, look for a worthy person in it, and stay there until you leave. 12 As you enter a house, wish it peace. 13 If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; if not, let your peace return to you. 14 Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words-go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. 15 Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. Mt 10:1-15.

This is Christ commissioning Peter and others to go out and spread His word. It seems that Christ trusts the apostles enough to do his work; yet, you argue that Peter had not converted at this time. This was before Peter's denial of Christ. Obviously, he had turned to our Lord authentically; yet, still fails in his journey. Because Christ's mercy and sacrifice has no limitation, Peter's sin can be forgiven when true repentance accompanies a sincere request. Try not to judge Peter's heart or the exact moment of his conversion. That is a job for our Lord.

No man is the Rock of God but the Rock of God, Jesus Christ, and His Testimony in man. You err, as the Catholic you are. All those born again are stones forming His Temple, His Body, of which Christ is the Cornerstone.

I agree that Christ is the cornerstone, the true rock upon which all salvation and faith and existence builds and is possible. However, it is Christ who calls Peter the Rock. It is Christ who tells Peter: “18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” Mt. 16:18.

I try not to disagree or contradict Christ. Especially when He is that clear. I'm not the one that called Peter “Rock” first; I simply repeated what Christ says.

We are the “little rocks” that make up His Body, that are used as the infrastructure for His Church, like cells in a body (the Body of Christ). However, Christ, the true rock, leaves us on earth a light in the darkness, a guide on our journey. This light and guide is the Kingdom which He establishes on earth to help form and evangelize the sequential generations. I am not the one that states this first; the Catholic Church is not the one that states this first; it is Christ. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Mt. 16:19. He calls Peter “rock”; He establishes a Kingdom, a Church on Peter, the rock that will not pass away.

Fourth Point:

I have never met a priest, whether in the Catholic Church or any other…

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21 [Jesus] said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” John 20:19-23.

Clearly, God has given some men the power to forgive sins. Another historical fact that you probably disagree with is that these men laid hands on and passed down the authority given to them by Christ Himself to some of their disciples. Those disciples, in turn, passed down that authority through the laying on of hands to others. This process has been undeniably followed and unbroken throughout the centuries. The men in the present age that have been given this gift by the Holy Spirit through the authority of Christ Himself are the Catholic priests. It is an unbroken tradition. It is historical fact. It is only possibly by the grace and power of God.

Fifth Point:

There is nothing holy or clean of the behemoth of 1.3 billion. You'll see that what is highly esteemed among men is indeed abomination with God, even as He said. She, the RCC, is being brought down as we speak.

The Catholic Church is the front leader for morals in our pagan society. Although she has fallen and failed at times throughout history and still does (because She is composed of humans) as Peter failed when he denied Christ, She stands in the face of the wolf, modern society that teaches pornography, premarital sex, artificial contraception, abortion… are all okay and completely natural. She stands her ground only by the grace and power of the Almighty God. She, supported by the celestial choir, is unwavering in her resolve to spread Christ to all nations. God's greatness is expressed in His unique ability to overcome, conquer and bring good out of man's terrible sins, including those of Catholics and non-Catholics alike. The holiness in the Church you fail to see is God's love and support within her even in the midst of our human weakness and failure. It is not by the power of man that she stands against the wolf claiming the lambs for Christ. It is the Holy Spirit guiding this Kingdom, this Church established on the Rock, Peter, by Christ. Our time on earth is a spiritual war. Christ has won that war already, but it is our participation in this war that decides on whose side we are. Unfortunately, we are going to lose some battles, but gratefully, we serve a King that is never without mercy.

Sixth Point:

As for your good works claims of the RCC, how many lepers did John the Immerser or Peter or Paul wash?

Why would you bring up John and Peter and Paul. I am a Christian. I follow Christ, not Paul or Peter or John. As good as they were, I am to follow in the footsteps of Christ. Mother Teresa was also a Christian. She concerned herself with following Him by proclaiming Him and imitating Him.

40 A leper came to him [and kneeling down] begged him and said, “If you wish, you can make me clean.” 41 Moved with pity, he stretched out his hand, touched him, and said to him, “I do will it. Be made clean.” 42 The leprosy left him immediately, and he was made clean. Mark 1:40-42.

John may or may not have “touched” any lepers, but Christ did. Is that not who we are to imitate? Mother Teresa did not help the lepers and poor because of what John or Paul did, but because of what Christ did. She also did not accomplish these works of mercy on her own or for her own glory. Her letters, public speeches, private diaries all are filled with her authentic desire to serve Christ and to lose herself in him. She once refused to arrive at her appointment with Pope John Paul II because she saw a dying homeless man on the street who was alone. When her sisters told her that she would be late for her appointment with the pope, she told them that she is meeting Christ in this man in the street. The pope could wait. This is a Christian. She saw Christ in the poor as Christ tells us to do. Do not pretend to have the authority or ability to judge her heart when God alone knows her true intentions and desires.

the term “anti-Christ” does not mean “against Christ,” but “in place or instead of.”:

Could you please cite your source for your definition of “anti”. This prefix comes from the Greek. The work literally means “against” or “opposite”.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anti

G473
a??t?´
anti
an-tee'
A primary particle; opposite, that is, instead or because of (rarely in addition to): - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.

For instance, if I am antiunion, then I am opposed to trade unions. I am not in the place of unions. This is clear. Anti means opposite; however, for argument's sake, we can use your definition the same. Mother Teresa was never once directing her work for herself. We have absolutely no proof or evidence that substantiates your claim. We do know that she suffered greatly and died in utter poverty. Where is the glory in that? How does that match anything about what the Scriptures claim about the anti-christ. A true Christian follows Christ. He died in utter poverty on a cross. Although Mother Teresa was not crucified, she died in this poverty proclaiming His name and begging people to know Him and serve Him. She does not promote or draw attention to herself.

My intention is not to lift Mother Teresa up as it is to claim her as an authentic child of God. She lived a life after Christ. All her actions were only possibly because of Christ working in her, as she herself constantly claimed.

12 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. Jn 14:12.

This is just a tiny fraction of the holiness you fail to see in the Church. Any and all of that holiness is simply because God is present in the Catholic Church. This is not to say that He is not present in other denominations… Christ is truth; therefore, where truth is, there Christ is in some way and to some degree.

Thank you again for your email and prayers. I will continue to pray for you and all my friends there at your organization. May we both be always open to meet Christ in the truth He offers us daily.

God bless y'all,
Jacob


God bless,
Jacob

Crux stat dum volvitur mundum.
Jacob
 

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Victor Hafichuk » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:07 pm



Hi Jake,

Random selections from your letter (I expect I'll be repeating some from former correspondence):

Only God is the judge of hearts.

Of course, we know God is the ultimate Judge of hearts and as Abraham said, He is “Judge of all the earth.” However, He doesn't judge alone but imparts judgment of all things to His sons and daughters, those who have received His Spirit. I have received His Spirit...Jan. 1, 1975. Here's what Paul has to say of me and the many who have been born again (first repeat):

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 MKJV
(12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
(13) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Jacob, you are a natural man until Christ comes to live within. As a natural man, you can't get what I'm saying; it's impossible. I know these things not by any virtue of my own, but by a new birth and revelation, by the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He is the only one who knows who is deserving of eternal punishment.

By eternal, I'm sure you mean punishment with no end at all, ever. You're wrong. That is about the most evil thing you could ever say about The One Who gave His Only Begotten Son for us. I can't think of a more heinous lie told and the spirit of your church is the mother of it.

I repeat (are you reading our links, Jacob?):

Read The Good News - not what you, by the title, may expect to read.

It is reason that largely separates Adam from the animals in Genesis.

You love your reason, don't you, Jacob? What makes you think I'm against reason? I reason with you now. All normal humans reason, and perhaps the smarter and more educated they are, the more they reason. But here's what the Lord had to say of the wise and sophisticated (like you):

“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the sophisticated and cunning, and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight” (Matthew 11:25-26 MKJV).

And Paul (who also reasoned) said:

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 MKJV
(26) For you see your calling, brothers, that not many wise men according to the flesh are called, not many mighty, not many noble.
(27) But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
(28) and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing things that are;
(29) so that no flesh should glory in His presence.
(30) But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption;
(31) so that, according as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

Yes, there is reason...man's carnal and God's spiritual, as I've said, but Jacob, you don't have spiritual reasoning; Paul says so:

(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Not to put you down; just giving you the facts.

As for animals, they too can reason; you might be surprised. The greater difference between the animal kingdom and man is...FAITH. Without faith, the reasoning man is but a beast - Psalm 73.

I am not against personal revelation. In fact, the Catholic Church has for hundreds and hundreds of years and still does teach that personal revelation is possible and a great gift from God. This teaching is still in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the compilation of the truths handed down from God to humanity.

It can be said the Catholic Church does have truths in its doctrine, be it acknowledgment of faith, declaring Jesus Christ is Lord and raised from the dead, and so forth. I am saying that Catholics haven't received and experienced these truths (the difference between “peshet” and “pesher” - Hebrew, knowing and knowing). If they did, they would and could no longer be Catholics.

She is not okay with private revelation that opposes clear truths found in Scripture.

Jacob, that is outrageously untrue. “She” (Mystery) doesn't have a clue, being filled to overflowing with pagan customs, thoroughly unclean inside and out. Read:

Diabolical Doctrines
The True Marks of a Cult

Victor, I grew up with anti-Catholic history books. I have read several histories concerning the early Christians and the compilation of Scriptures. I have not come across anything that denies that it was the Catholic Church that formed the canon of Scripture.

To read, one must be alive and have open eyes. However, the history of the Roman Catholic Church matters little to me. I judge her not by her past as by revelation of her fruits, nature, practice, and doctrine. In the sight of God and all holy residents of Heaven, Rome is a horrid abomination. You'll see the truth of that soon enough.

True revelation is above all earthly knowledge; however, in so far as it is true Revelation, then it does not oppose historical fact and human knowledge. True Revelation is above and fuller than human knowledge, which does NOT mean contradictory to it. True Revelation is a truth which per se (through itself and by definition) does not and cannot contradict other truth. They are complimentary.

In this, you're preaching to the choir, Jacob. I couldn't agree more. Have you seen me disagree?

Again, logic is not contrary to revelation or truth, it is a rational and valid means by which truth ought to be conveyed to others.

And, again, I absolutely agree, in the context described.

Is it not possible that he had converted, but this conversion is a journey, a process, rather than a single moment.

No, Jacob, there is a specific, momentous, revolutionary, earth-shaking event, and yes, it develops and expands from there. Read my testimony again...and again.... Your notion of a gradual process without a significant beginning is erroneous; it comes from one who has never experienced the initiatory gift of repentance direct from God's throne (we aren't speaking contrition here - a big difference). This gift is as spiritually tangible and identifiable as a parcel from UPS placed on the doorstep ready to be opened.

When I turn on a light, it doesn't gradually come on over time. When I light a match, it lights instantly, completely - for the first time, and burns thereafter. When I begin a journey by car, I take the key and engage the ignition; the car starts, I put it in gear, and I drive off.

Your match has yet to be lit. You have yet to start your car; indeed, you have yet to purchase a car. You've never experienced the grace of being born of water, being washed by His Word. You have yet to be conceived (born of water), much more born of the Spirit. Not saying you haven't had some emotional highs or “epiphanies,” or that you haven't made significant decisions by reason about your life, and not saying you have. But that's not what I'm talking about.

An example of what I'm saying from the Scriptures is Zacchaeus. Saul is another (Acts 9), Lydia is another (Acts 16), the Philippian jailor (Acts 16) the Samaritans (Acts 8), Cornelius and his house (Acts 10), and others.

The apostles first experienced repentance at some significant point not recorded or explained in detail; they were also chosen to be His apostles, but were ultimately “converted” at Pentecost, as appointed. Here's what Jesus said to Peter:

“But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not. And when you are converted [turned], strengthen your brothers” (Luke 22:32 MKJV).

Saul of Tarsus was “turned on a dime” - a process beginning with a dramatic introduction into an entirely new dimension, akin to crossing a threshold into a room never seen. Not that all experiences are identical, but in general nature, you've never had that momentous event, Jacob. I speak of something you've never known. Am I pulling rank or being condescending? I hope not. Whatever my motive is - and I'll leave that with the Lord, I know what I'm saying is true and applicable to you.

Heaven would greatly rejoice at your entrance. Angels would sing; I would sing and rejoice; all those with me would do so; the prophets and apostles and all saints would be overjoyed. You have no idea.

Be informed: In any conversion case, it's a work of God and not something anyone can simply decide to do on his own, not for himself or for any other.

Jacob, you don't know it, but you're fighting for your life now; you have a lot at stake.

Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP with God. This means growth, failure, repentance, and ideally a journey further and further toward Him. It does not mean instantaneous perfection where mistakes are rarely made.

True...in a measure. Christianity, not in the sense the world or the Catholic Church knows it, is a relationship with God, yes, and more than that - it is knowing Him and being one with Him. It is Christ within.

Yes, in the walk by and of the gift of faith, there are those things you list (growth, failure, repentance) on a very real journey, not toward, so much as IN, Him. Your words consistently tell where you are...and where you aren't. Not condemning or criticizing you.

Perfection isn't completed at the start, very true, but perfection does come for saints...in this life for several. However, that journey, that process of perfection, needs a starting point, like any journey. You have yet to begin before you can proceed. You must experience the precious gift of repentance by the gift of faith, a work of grace:

Ephesians 2:8-10 MKJV
(8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
(9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
(10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jacob, you have doctrine and theory; you have indoctrination and reason; you have the faith of men, but you don't have the supernatural faith of God. Your faith is the counterfeit, of fallen man, a carnal conviction, a system of belief, that which men savor, and which displaces the faith of God. You're seduced, deceived into thinking you have understood, or apprehended, or are apprehending God's will for you; you don't have it. I was there many years ago as a Catholic; praise God He had mercy on me and many others.

I can only speak these things because I've been where you are and because I am where I am now, in the True Place of the Light of Jesus Christ, the Light of men, in the Kingdom of God. You are only in the Catholic Church. That will never suffice for you or for God. I was perishing there long ago as you are now.

This is Christ commissioning Peter and others to go out and spread His word. It seems that Christ trusts the apostles enough to do his work; yet, you argue that Peter had not converted at this time.

Do I argue in error? Try taking this up with the One Who speaks these things. I've given you the passage where the Lord Himself spoke of Peter's conversion in the future (Luke 22:32), after the work they had been given to do. As Jesus said to the Jews, “You err, not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof.”

You try to demonstrate knowledge and skill with the Scriptures. Give it up already; you don't have what you presume or pretend to have. No matter the study and education, no man can understand the Scriptures but by His grace. You may agree with me on that point but you don't really believe it; you only acknowledge and hope it may be true you have His grace. Isn't that so?

Such assumptive belief would serve to tell you you're on the right track; it would absolve you of the cross, which you think to be taking up by your vocation. Your presumption keeps you from believing the truth and taking up the cross, the only way to receive Christ and His power over sin and death.

Read:

The Cross - Only the Death Sentence Will Avail
Taking Up the Cross: “What Is Required of Me?”

More error on your part: Jesus Christ didn't trust the apostles or any man. The seventy disciples abandoned Him after tasting those powers, Judas betrayed Him at the end, the disciples couldn't accompany Him in prayer in His last hours of great trouble, Peter denied Him repeatedly and all His followers fled. This tells us Jesus Christ had no call to trust any man. You blindly place faith in man's ability and righteousness. The Kingdom of Heaven doesn't work that way because no man is trustworthy, not one. Here's a Scripture to consider in this regard:

John 2:23-25 MKJV
(23) And as He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, at the feast, many believed in His Name when they saw the miracles which He did.
(24) But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all
(25) and did not need that anyone should testify of man [generic]. For He knew what was in man.

This includes all men, Jacob. You see you don't understand, whether they be things of the flesh or spirit. You have no comprehension of the things of God; admit it; forsake the works of men and surrender to His Work.

Because Christ's mercy and sacrifice has no limitation, Peter's sin can be forgiven when true repentance accompanies a sincere request. Try not to judge Peter's heart or the exact moment of his conversion. That is a job for our Lord.

Peter was baptized in the Holy Spirit (converted) at Pentecost along with close to 120 others. That day, he was a new man and preached by the power of the Holy Spirit whereby about 3000 souls were added to the Body of Christ. No “judging” here, Jacob.

My wife and I were converted January 1, 1975. Since that time we have witnessed others receiving the Spirit; no need to “judge.” Look in the Scriptures and you'll find clear testimonies of people receiving the Spirit at set times, no long drawn out processes... The Samaritans (Acts 8), Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9), Cornelius and his house (Acts 10), the Ephesian disciples (Acts 19). To you these things are gray or don't exist for this day because you've never experienced the reality.

I've already shown you the clear Scriptural declaration that those who have the Spirit judge all things. Are you denying these Biblical truths? Why?

I try not to disagree or contradict Christ. Especially when He is that clear. I'm not the one that called Peter 'Rock' first; I simply repeated what Christ says.

That's very righteous of you, but you're wrong by indoctrination. Are you aware the man without the Spirit of God can do nothing but disagree with or contradict Jesus Christ, though he pretends to agree with Him? Why else did Jesus Christ have to lay down His life, if not to reconcile the man of sin who is at enmity with God?

“Call no man 'Father;' 'Don't use repetitious prayers...'” like your rosary beads, which pray more to a human being than to God. No images, no pretentious positions, garments and titles...the list is a very long one, a list you defend to the detriment of your soul. The Catholic Church and its Pope are admired by men, highly esteemed. Do you not see the abomination Jesus says it is? No, because in your trying to not disagree with the Lord, you miserably fail, breaking every one of His Commandments.

“And He said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God” (Luke 16:15 MKJV).

Jacob, does His mercy “have no limitation” in the sense that men can continue in sin without consequence and destruction? Not a chance, nor are confession and contrition nearly sufficient. He said, “Except you repent you shall likewise perish.” He said, “Go and sin no more lest something worse befalls you.” The admonitions are many. You deceive yourself with your false doctrines, superstitions, and vain hopes.

Jesus Christ has absolutely nothing to do with your organization. If you think He was angered and energized at the cleansing of the Temple, just consider what He would do should He enter the Vatican premises. The day and power of the “Holy Roman Apostolic Catholic Church” has come to an end. In a generation, it will be utterly destroyed to rise no more, and it will be the Great Wrath of God that accomplishes the destruction.

Run for your life to Him while you can, unless it's already too late, which I suspect it isn't, or you and I wouldn't be having this conversation.

The men in the present age that have been given this gift by the Holy Spirit through the authority of Christ Himself are the Catholic priests. It is an unbroken tradition. It is historical fact. It is only possibly by the grace and power of God.

Historical fact? No, Jacob, you are wrong. I have known many priests; I was an altar boy, solo singer in the choir, president of the youth club, and I attended a minor seminary for a year and lived, so to speak, with several priests. No Catholic has priestly grace with God; no Catholic priest can forgive sins or pass the gift of the Holy Spirit on to any man.

It was men from outside the Catholic Church whom God sent to me that I might receive the Spirit of the Lord, and when it happened, Heaven opened, I was freed from the powerful tyranny of the prince of this world and of sin and guilt; it's been over 40 years since that happened. No priest even suggested he could do that for me, not before or since.

Nor is there one Catholic I've known who has experienced this gracious work of God and remained Catholic. You are sorely misled and gravely mistaken, Jacob...and in rather “beautiful” ways, I add.

Why would you bring up John and Peter and Paul. I am a Christian. I follow Christ, not Paul or Peter or John.

You misunderstand. See the context of my question replying to you; consider and you should easily understand why.

She [Teresa] saw Christ in the poor as Christ tells us to do. Do not pretend to have the authority or ability to judge her heart when God alone knows her true intentions and desires.

No pretense here, Jacob, only realities foreign to you, and you'll know it by and by.

the term 'anti-Christ' does not mean 'against Christ,' but 'in place or instead of.':

Could you please cite your source for your definition of 'anti'. This prefix comes from the Greek. The work literally means 'against' or 'opposite'.

Allow me to qualify what I said; I wasn't entirely accurate. Not only, I should say, does the preposition mean “against,” or “opposite to,” but also, and more so, “instead of” or as substitution (copy, counterfeit):

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the KJV Bible:

G473 a??t?´ anti an-tee'

A primary particle; opposite, that is, instead or because of (rarely in addition to): - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.

The enemy's shrewd and subtle strategy is often not coming out directly in opposition, but to come AS or instead of, pretending to be. Here's what Paul said in support of this truth:

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 MKJV
(13) For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(14) Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light?
(15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.

The angel of darkness doesn't come as one of darkness but as an angel of light. Yes, He's anti, or against, but his preference is to come “as” or “instead of.” Just like the Catholic Church, the Pope, the nuns, priests and all those who even sincerely believe they serve God but are gravely mistaken, as the Lord said:

“They shall put you out of the synagogue. But an hour is coming that everyone who kills you will think that he bears God service” (John 16:2 MKJV).

Your reference to the word “anti” also supports what I'm saying:

anti-
word-forming element meaning "against, opposed to, opposite of, instead, "from Old French anti- and directly from Latin anti-, from Greek anti" against, opposite, instead of,"


A true Christian follows Christ. He died in utter poverty on a cross. Although Mother Teresa was not crucified, she died in this poverty proclaiming His name and begging people to know Him and serve Him. She does not promote or draw attention to herself.

You mean like the Pope, cardinals and the Vatican bankers, Jacob?

As for Teresa, it's written:

“And if I give all my goods to the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it is of no profit to me” (1 Corinthians 13:3 BBE).

Had she followed Christ instead of being a devotee of Mary, she would have swiftly fled the organization to which she was apparently faithful, running to God:

2 Corinthians 6:14-16 MKJV
(14) Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?
(15) And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?
(16) And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, “I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

This is just a tiny fraction of the holiness you fail to see in the Church. Any and all of that holiness is simply because God is present in the Catholic Church. This is not to say that He is not present in other denominations… Christ is truth; therefore, where truth is, there Christ is in some way and to some degree.

The Pharisees had some good doctrine you would call “truth.” For example, they believed in the resurrection and in the existence of angels and spirits. They prayed, fasted, gave alms, tithed, offered sacrifices, attended Temple and synagogue worship services, studied the Scriptures and told others about the God of Abraham and Moses. But there they were, full of hatred for The Truth when He presented Himself to them, so much so that they crucified Him.

And what did Jesus say of them?

John 8:37-45 MKJV
(37) I know that you are Abraham's seed, but you seek to kill Me because My Word has no place in you.
(38) I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you, then, do what you have seen with your father.
(39) They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
(40) But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth which I have heard beside God; this Abraham did not do.
(41) You do the deeds of your father. Then they said to Him, We are not born of fornication; we have one father, even God.
(42) Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me.
(43) Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word.
(44) You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
(45) And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me.

Do you see how much in a muddle you are, according to the Lord? No? No.

I have never said the Roman Church hasn't done some good works, or that many of their adherents, priests, nuns or otherwise haven't sacrificed, several of them in great ways, perhaps even to the shedding of blood. But I will as much declare that unless one makes a difference between the holy and unholy and ceases to mix the two, that one will perish:

“So because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth” (Revelation 3:16 MKJV).

Jake, wake up from the dead. The Lord is speaking to you.

Victor
Victor Hafichuk
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Jacob » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:13 pm



Victor,

I will be repeating myself as well.

Yes, we finally agree on something. God is the final judge. Although you think Paul gives you the ability to judge others, he does not. He does allow you to judge all THINGS as the Scripture you have offered says. Wee can judge an action or actions to be right or wrong; however, the judging of souls belongs to God alone. To say that this person or that person is IN hell is to judge the soul of a person. This is not your job, stick to judging things. Victor, I know you think I am hell bound, I understand that you think I am a part of the “whore of Babylon" , your view is hardly original. I would be a rich man if I had a nickel for every time you have told me in some way or another that I am on the road to hell (natural man, Satan's puppet...). I understand very clearly that you think that, there is hardly any reason to repeat it constantly throughout each letter. I know you mean well when you say it, that is why I am not offended; however, there seems to be no reason to repeat it infinitely.

By eternal, I'm sure you mean punishment with no end at all, ever.

You are correct. I should not have used "eternal", everlasting is certainly more accurate. Thank you for that correction. However, you are wrong about the idea of God not being the only who knows about who belongs in hell. It would be nice to have had an actual defense of your statement rather than simply a statement. Victor, I have a job and other responsibilities. I have not read any of the other articles as I also assume you have not read Fides et Ratio. If you have please let me know and I will be glad to recommend more things and begin reading your articles. This is a two way street.

You also mentioned that animals have reason. This is patently false. They do not, and it is provable that they do not. I am surprised that you believe this considering that the people that argue that animals have reason are generally atheists trying to prove cross-species evolution. A theory that I doubt you agree with. A basic study of philosophy will logically demonstrates that animals learn by way of perception, association and memory. They do not have any intellectual powers which are apprehension, understanding, conception... These powers are where the human person has the ability to reason, will, form words that are more significant than a single image or phantasm or simple idea. Animals do not have reason. Reason is where man's ability to acknowledge and communicate with God is. We are able to dialogue with Him because we have reason. Therefore, faith is possible because of our reason (it builds upon and completes our reason). Animals cannot do this at all. Now if you had read Fides et Ratio, you would understand better that faith works in accord with this. Reason is a gift from God as is faith. They are not pitted against each other. They compliment each other and work harmoniously.

I know your not against reason, my point is that you don't understand it properly in accord with faith. I don't disagree with anything that Paul said in 1 Cor. I certainly do not disagree with the passage you gave. I only disagree with your confused interpretation of it. Yes, God does use the weak and simple to confound those who think they are strong, great, intelligent... He also uses the strong and intelligent. God is not limited to the weak people or the strong people. He uses any and those that are open to His grace. Reason is a natural part of humanity (again not animals); however, this does not mean that works against faith or apart from faith. What Paul means when he speaks about the natural man verse the spiritual man, is the difference between a person who glories in the temporal goods. The one attached to the temporal goods of the earth and not the eternal Good (who is God). This is the distinction there, not one between faith and reason. Largely, your point seems to be that God will reveal to me one day what He has revealed to you. Why would I believe anything you say until He reveals it to me unless you are going to use reasonable arguments. Again, reasonable arguments does not mean anti-spiritual arguments. Things of God can be explained in reasonable and rational terms. I do not at all mean that things of God can be known or explained completely by reason or human language. Of course, they cannot, we are finite and God is infinite. We are always seeking and falling short of understanding Him fully.

I am glad that you admit that the Church does have some truth in Her doctrine; that we also can agree on. Though I would say that all of her doctrine is true thanks be to God. Private revelation is possible and a great gift from God WHEN IT IS TRULY FROM HIM. One way to test its authenticity would be to see how it stands against the truths that Christ has passed down through His Church, the Catholic Church. Clearly, you disagree with all of that; however, your argument is the exact same as all those other people I mentioned that claimed to have private revelation that flies in the face of everything Christ said and Tradition has supported. Private revelation has its place as does public revelation which you have not mentioned or acknowledged.

To read, one must be alive and have open eyes. However, the history of the Roman Catholic Church matters little to me. I judge her not by her past as by revelation of her fruits, nature, practice, and doctrine. In the sight of God and all holy residents of Heaven, Rome is a horrid abomination. You'll see the truth of that soon enough.

The issue with this statement is that you clearly have judged her for her past throughout our correspondence. The original article that sparked this discussion between us is full of your judgments of the Church's History. Likewise, History is amply important. Knowing where we come from and how the truths of Christ have been handed down is essential. Understanding not only where and who compiled the canon of Scripture, but also the process and debates concerning it are all extremely pertinent. The history should matter much to you. Whether you believe it or not, there is no Protestantism or belief in Christ without the Catholic Church sustaining and living the Tradition that had been given to her by Christ. Again, because She is composed of humans, many Catholics have and continue to commit outrageous atrocities in Her name; however, this is why the Cross, repentance, Truth... are so vital and undeserved.

In this, you're preaching to the choir, Jacob. I couldn't agree more. Have you seen me disagree?

Of Course I have seen you disagree. Your "revelation" is chalk full of contradictions to the accurate truths descended from Christ and his apostles and other disciples. How can these men have lived with Christ and taught what the Catholic Church still teaches today and all have been wrong but you are correct. God makes His truths known to people as He did to Paul (private revelation), as well as to the other apostles as He told them to go out and spread the Good news. Therefore, He equips humanity with a group of people that are relatively organized and who pass on what they have received. This is the beginning of the Church. In fact, St. Ignatius of Antioch was the first to call the Church Catholic. He lived ca. 100 AD. Obviously he understood the Historical context, era, culture... in which Christ lived. Therefore, he would have a great understanding of what Christ taught and spread through His apostles. In fact, it is believed that he was a disciple of the apostle John. This means that he would have learned from the man that is credited with writing at least five of the New Testament books. If you read his writings, they are completely in line with what the Catholic Church teaches. Do you think that God is limited to teaching people by means of private revelation alone? I would say that He can teach subsequent generations as he commanded His disciples to do: by teaching. If this is the case, then maybe the Catholic Church is so evil considering she teaches and tries to live out, through her people, what was taught 2000 yrs. ago by the disciple of St. John (which basically means John himself). This is true historical record. This is why ACCURATE historical understanding is so helpful.

As for the conversion of Peter; I also disagree. Yes, Saul did have a profound and intense experience that greatly altered his life; but he still struggled and discussed the "thorn in his flesh". We do not know what this "thorn" was. It could have been a sin he struggled with or just a person that bothered him. You do not know what the apostles conversion was like. It is all speculation and assumptions. What we do know is what I have stated. Peter was sent to spread the message and was given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and was given great spiritual powers and gifts and still sinned after receiving them. Clearly, this evidence better supports my position. Even with the evidence on my side, I still don't claim to know Peter's motives or conversion story. Yes, there are a lot of people that have had awesome conversion stories and none of them tell us that those people NEVER sinned again. They lived holy lives; I imagine. They strove for God and spread the Gospel... They reached great holiness, but nothing I know of states that they never sinned again.

You don't know if Peter was converted at Pentecost or not. Nothing in Scripture says that. It says that the Spirit descended upon them. That is great, the Spirit has the ability to pour more and more and more power onto us whenever He wills. He does not only do this at a single moment and no other time. Of course I do not deny Biblical truth; I do deny your pour and "out-of-context" interpretation of it. Clearly you have put your own assumptions into Scripture. That is a dangerous road to go down. One that many have, like Martin Luther, John Calvin, Mohammed, Zwingli, Joseph Smith and countless others. Many people have risen throughout the centuries claiming to have immediate and private revelation from God. Many people have the same story you do with different details. The way to test a person's truth is to test it against known truth and time. Many of these men have lost their following throughout the centuries and others are just a shell of what they were.

The Catholic Church has withstood time and kingdoms and wars and everything satan has been able to throw at it simply because the Holy Spirit guides her and supports her. Two thousand years is nothing to "shake a stick at". I know I am fighting for my life. Do you? Any person that gets complacent in the earnest and sincere search for truth is in danger. The enemy is constantly fighting for my soul. I trust in God and I beg my guardian angel to keep helping to fight this fight.

Unlike you, we Catholics believe God is bigger than any one person's or one church's interpretation of truth. His mercy is not limited to who you think has the necessary information. I know you disagree with all of this and that's fine. I know you think that you aren't limiting God's mercy, but you are. He can reach Catholics and Protestants alike as long as they are earnestly seeking the truth. Obviously, I don't mean that all people will go to heaven or that non-contrite sinners will be saved. Hell is very real. Baptism is necessary as Scripture says. Faith and works are as well.

However, just because you or I cannot imagine how somebody could be Baptized without them being baptized does not mean that God cannot think of a way. Anytime you say that I or somebody else is in hell or going to hell, then you putting God in a box. You are able to judge THINGS and acts, but not people as stated above. God is greater than the Scriptures even though He is in them. He is certainly greater than our minimal understanding of them. We humans must be cautious not to limit God, even accidentally. This is why I am in this discussion with you. Not only do I know that you have a terribly mistaken understanding of the Catholic Church; however, I also am still seeking truth. I am absolutely convinced in the Catholic Church; however, I am always open and wanting to hear if somebody knows something I don't. I won't make it easy on them. They, you better be able to give me good arguments with sound reason and properly interpreted Scriptures. I will gladly convert when I have somebody do that. I am still waiting. You would do well to remember this. The world is not so much full of people that hate the Catholic Church, but of people that hate what they think the Catholic Church is.

For instance, these arguments you used are completely out of context. Call no man 'Father;'

I wonder if Christ called Joseph "father", b/c it would have been odd for him not to. God commands us to honor our "father and mother". Most likely you called somebody "daddy" before. Therefore, your argument must mean spiritual father. Well, that also holds no water. In context, that verse is meaning to not call any man "Father" as God is called Father. When a person says father to a priest, they clearly do not mean Father as our Heavenly Father. The significance is to better demonstrate the idea of family within the Christian community, not to replace God. The priest, the father, is only there in order to help them get closer to God. They are the presbyters that the New Testament mentions several times. That Greek word is the word that "priest" is derived from.

Anther one: Don't use repetitious prayers.

Chris Himself says that when you pray, to pray like this... Therefore, He tells us to pray a specific prayer over and over again. At the very least, He gives us a format to repeat. In context, that verse is describing how people would often pray without love and devotion toward God. Rather, they would simply pray the prayers in repetition God's favor came upon people based on word count and not sincerity and faith and free gift.

I am sorry that you never met a priest that could help you with that. Either you did not meet good priests or you were not open to the gifts God grants through them. Of course, none of them would have been able to help you with anything on their own. Only through the power of God in them and through is that forgiveness possible.

In regards to the saints and Mother Teresa, we will just have to disagree. Their phenomenal testimonies, martyrdoms, faith... speaks for themselves. Such great people that never in a million years ever wanted anything but to come close to Christ, not take the place of Him. That is false. No Catholic that properly understands his or her faith would ever look to saints in a way that places them in the position or Person of Christ. That would be ridiculous, even though I am sure that it has happened in very rare and strange situations. Mother Teresa clearly loved. Embracing a leper generally means death without God supernaturally preventing it.

In regards to "anti", I can abide by that. I agree with your idea of it anyhow. In fact, there are several saints that have been approached by satan or some demons that have disguised themselves by the appearance of Jesus or and angel or an animal... They had the God-given wisdom to denounce them and banish them in the name of Christ once they uncovered the true identity. Padre Pio recounted an instance where the devil was disguised as Christ. It was not until he noticed that there were no scars where the wounds used to be that he questioned him. At once, the image changed into a rabid dog and leaped out of the window. The claw scratches are still on the window sill from that instance in his cell.

The fact that the devil does this and has great power that God gave him at his creation is why it is so important to test personal revelation with public revelation. To have some objective reality that God has gifted us so that we do not fall for the tricks of the evil one as so many have (Joseph Smith and others I have already mentioned).

Don't get me wrong, I don't put a great deal of weight on the Strong's concordance of the KJV because the KJV is such a terrible translation. It has added parts and negated parts. Why anybody would choose a Bible that is easily proven to be inaccurate is beyond me.

Your verses that connect the Pharisees with the the great Catholics throughout the centuries is insulting. I know Christ condemned their actions and ways. My point was exactly the opposite. Their supernatural actions, words, teachings... bear evidence that God IS in them. I am glad that you were at minor seminary. I assume that you never got to much into St. Thomas Aquinas. Read his Summa Theolgiae. A humble and open reading of his writings demonstrates that no man could ever come to know and explain God as well as he did without God working through him. The only way that he was able to write and know much of this at all is because he spent so many hours in prayer.

Some saints would enter into great mystical experiences, levitate, glow with rays of light... They would do this at Mass at the elevation of the Eucharist. Some would do it while just repeating Jesus' name. This was not satanic because satan is not capable of proclaiming that most glorious name. He couldn't and wouldn't force somebody to do it. They would have to do it on their own from my understanding. I know you think all this is somehow satanic or evil; I can't change your fury or frustration and you won't accept their actions as proof. Christ's issue with the Pharisees was that they didn't act as they taught. This argument falls incredibly short since it was the actions and miracles that the saints performed (only by God's power and only for His glory) that demonstrated their authenticity. Padre Pio was also given the rare grace to bilocate (be in two places at one time) so that he could HELP people that needed him at the same time. To my knowledge, satan does not have the ability to manipulate matter and form in this regard. He could not be the reason for Padre Pio's bilocation because he is incapable of making matter. At best it would have to be an illusion of some sort which is not what is recorded for any of the bilocation instances. I am sure that these amazing stories will not penetrate your condemnation (hate or dislike or whatever) of the Catholic Church. This is sad because the Catholic Church misses you and your wife.

I will continue to pray for yall. I will continue to seek truth as I hope you do. In order to do this though, humility is necessary. I do apologize, I wrote this a little quickly, so the organization and clarity is probably more limited.

God bless,
Jacob
Crux stat dum volvitur mundum.
Jacob
 

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Paul Cohen » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:04 am



Jacob, Paul Cohen here. I've been reading all your correspondence with Victor and have some things to say.

We don't think you're heading to hell. We see you there now - struggling to maintain your dignity by asserting confidence in the “Holy” Roman Catholic Church and its teachings. Such knowledge and pride only serve as chains of darkness binding you in hell.

Our confidence is in Jesus Christ alone, to Whom you need to come. All your knowledge and intellectual arguments only blind you to the fact that you don't have Him.

You claim to know what Victor is thinking, but in truth you don't know or understand any of our thinking - because you don't know the Lord and His ways. Your vaunted reason, no matter how refined and studied, is still the reason of unregenerate man, of whom God says:

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says the LORD” (Isaiah 55:8 MKJV).

That isn't a put down, Jake. It's the truth we know. We didn't have to confer with each other to know it. We didn't have to consult your highly esteemed theologians to know it. We didn't even need to read the Scriptures or to ask the Lord to know it. We've known it because the Lord has already given us eyes to see and new hearts to understand. Having His Mind, we see you just as the Lord could see the nature of men in His day.

And why not? We have His Spirit and are as He is in the world, even as He said. You can't say this of yourself, but we can say it of ourselves, and that's not arrogance - it's a fact.

“Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I should say I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I know Him and I keep His Word” (John 8:55 MKJV).

The Lord wasn't talking about the religious purposefully lying (although they did that, too) - He was addressing a nature, your nature, which is to lie because you haven't been born again of the Truth.

A fish in water doesn't know it's in water. You've never been on land - the Kingdom of God. You've never met and known the King, the Lord Jesus Christ. You've only known the corruption of sin and the flesh, and though you've dressed it up in pious Catholic finery, it remains corruption underneath.

But now you've encountered Jesus Christ through Victor, Who calls you out on your religious posturing. You don't recognize Him or His voice because you've never known Him as one of His sheep.

“We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6 MKJV).

The important point here is that you can personally know Him, Jake. Not only can you, but you must in order to be saved. That's what salvation is - knowing Him and having His life sustaining you through His Faith and Obedience, obedience to The Cross.

You have an imitation faith, which has nothing at all to do with His faith. We're talking another language altogether, one you can't understand.

So why do we bother talking? Because His Word is greater than your unbelief. His sacrifice is greater than your hardness of heart. His humility is greater than your pride. His weakness will prevail over your strength. Our Words will not return to Him void. Victory is guaranteed, because it's His work and victory.

Our desire is to see you come out of hell, not to send or keep you there. We also know it's with good purpose that you're there for now. You need to take your “goodness” to the limit, and, having failed, know the vanity of your illusions and presumptions, having your wretchedness and ungodly ways made manifest before you.

As far as reading the links we've given you, that's up to you. We're not making deals to read your Catholic materials, as if we don't know what they're about, because we've already been where you are, but you've not been where we are.

Read our writings or not, you will be held responsible by the Lord for what He's given you in this correspondence. And someday you'll be thankful for that.

Paul
Paul Cohen
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:01 am

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Jacob » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:10 pm



Paul,

Thank you for your email, I am sure Victor appreciates the breather.

Although I started off excited to see somebody had joined into the conversation, I was very disappointed after realizing you simply repeated him. Try, just for a moment to see what y'all are asking me to do. You come to me claiming that I am in hell in nearly every paragraph and then proceed to give me absolutely no credible arguments for why you believe what you believe. You simply take out various Scriptures and mold them into your own interpretation. I have given countless examples of other people that claim Christianity and claim to have unique and marvelous knowledge passed on by Christ Himself. We both agree that these people are wrong.

However, you have failed time and time again to give me a GOOD reason to believe you. I am open. My only prayer is that I do find truth. I am not defending the Catholic Church because I have nothing better to do or because I just want to pick a fight. I am defending Her because I have seen a mere glimpse of the good that has come from Her. Good, that always and only originates from God. Now, I realize that this last sentence is highly offensive to you or simply false in your mind; however, until you give me a reason that is honest, logical and well-constructed that supports your 'personal revelation' claims, then I have no reason to abandon what I have seen and experienced for myself through the beautiful truths, devotions and traditions in the Catholic Church.

I cannot imagine somebody simply abandoning their faith tradition because y'all wrote an article or an essay that sounds pretty but lacks every bit of substantial reasoning. I also know that when I use the word reason or logic, you misuse Scripture (yet again) to say that its because I don't know God. Well, okay maybe that's accurate but give me a reason why. Your point is largely that Christ has to reveal to me what He has revealed to you (even though I have no proof of this because I have not seen any unspeakably amazing works from your Path of truth members on news) (I also have no proof of this because I have not received any credible and intensely revealing explanations of Scripture), then why enter into these discussions at all. If it simply and only depends on Christ's timing, then what is the purpose of you website. I also believe that one's conversion is simply based on their cooperation with the grace God sends them; however, I believe that the grace can be in the form of another person... Therefore, God is able to use somebody in order to reach others. This is the purpose of my evangelization.

As offensive as y'all's accusations are or can be (I know y'all don't mean them offensively), they are more offensive and absurd because they are sent without any explanation or support. I will not be reading anymore from y'all's site if y'all are unwilling to read what I send y'all. Y'all do not know what is in those documents. Countless people with authentic relationships with Christ (though I know y'all would disagree) have come, with weapon in hand, to defeat the Catholic Church by using Her writings and Traditions against Her. So many of these people have converted because they found an undeniable truth and beauty withing these Traditions and writings that could only come from God. I know, y'all firmly disagree, but on what grounds, y'all do not know what is in them because y'all are unwilling to read them. Y'all, Victor certainly, may have read some to some degree; however, but that is not to the same degree about which I am talking.

I have offered y'all demonstration after demonstration of holy people that accomplished actions and miracles far greater than any of us ever will most likely. Therefore, I have shown the proof of the good works that have come from countless members of the Catholic Church. Where are y'all's incredibly selfless actions. Y'all are so quick to say that Mother Theresa was evil when her actions reveal her faith, as St. James admits in Chapter 2. Not only do y'all claim that she is an anti-christ, again y'all do so without any proof or reason. Y'all admit that reason is a gift from God and that we should use it; however, y'all do not seem to.

How easy it must be for y'all to dismiss my arguments without truly digesting them humbly since y'all simply claim their of the natural world and not the supernatural world. I am blind to this or that; I am in hell... Show me some shred of evidence and then I might be able to agree with you. Just offer me something that is not solely based on your own claim of private revelation, then I can evaluate the evidence in humility, God-willing, and move one way or the other.

Although we are both repeating ourselves, I have not felt stubborn in this discussion because I have not felt like y'all have given me anything about which to be stubborn. If I come across that way, I am sorry; however, you understand I cannot in good conscience, abandon all that I have known to be true, all my countless experiences and affirmations in prayer, study and work simply because a couple of guys I have never met told me I am in hell (about a thousand times). They have had Christ reveal something to them, but they cannot give me any evidence, not in their actions, nor arguments. I am not trying to judge y'all; for all I know, y'all are changing water into wine on a daily basis, but let me know and see as y'all want me to. I cannot and will not abandon my life, my faith, my love, without being walked to the truth by the light of Christ. Y'all are not doing this. Y'all are simply misrepresenting Scripture, making firm accusations, and positing bold claims with no supporting material.

ISIS and ISIL are clearly an evil entity. That much I hope we can agree. I would certainly posit that satan has infiltrated that entity. Now, they have declared their hate for the Catholic Church. In fact, they have sworn to destroy Rome. Now, if satan is intelligent (being an angel, he is intelligent, I also hope we can agree on this), then wouldn't he be incredibly stupid to have ISIL, "his minions" (for the sake of argument) attack and destroy the Roman Catholic Church, who (as y'all believe) are also in satan's pocket. In fact, if y'all are the few authentic Christians, why wouldn't the Roman Catholic Church and ISIL, again, satan's "minions" be trying to destroy the Path of truth community with every bit of haste and intensity. Is this not logical. Christ speaks of those being persecuted because they follow Him. Where are y'all's martyrs? Clearly, the Catholic Church has millions. The Catholic Church has suffered more martyrdom in the last 2 centuries then any of the other centuries. Of course, somehow y'all are going to hastily dismiss this argument; however, that makes it no less true. If y'all are so right, then satan would be coming at y'all in every aspect possible. I do know that the Catholic Church is mocked daily on entities like ISIL.

I do know that the standards and teachings the Church has upheld for so many centuries are being mocked and fought in popular culture, sitcoms, movies, music.... She has stood in the face of evil for 2 thousand years. She has fought against premarital sex, abortion, euthanasia, artificial contraception, invitro-fertilization... for a long time. This culture of death is strong. It isvery clear to me that satan is attacking the Church with everything he can. As Christians, we must unite not accuse others of being in hell. I know you do what you do because you want to reach people but your arguments are just not there. Any rivalry, disunity... between Christians is exactly what satan wants. Please, do NOT simply dismiss this critique as a blind person that just can't understand... Just pray about it and reflect on it asking God to give you humility. If it is wrong, then He won't allow evil to come from honest reflection. We Christians (I say 'we' because I am a Christian whether you think it or not) must combat the evils of satan as one body, one Church, one family established and sustained by the Almighty God.

I will continue to pray for y'all. I hope this email does not anger anybody. I have enjoyed our correspondence. Whether y'all like it or not or believe it or y'all, I love. I will continue to pray for y'all to find truth ever-more deeply as I pray that I myself find truth ever-more deeply. Thanks again Paul and say hello to Victor for me.

God bless,
Jacob
Crux stat dum volvitur mundum.
Jacob
 

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Victor Hafichuk » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:41 pm



Jake, the sum of the matter is that you don't have the Spirit of God. Not having His Spirit, it's impossible for you to understand the things of God that we speak to you, even as the apostle Paul declares:

1 Corinthians 2:13-16 MKJV
(13) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
(16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

You aren't paying attention because you can't pay attention. We understand.

Furthermore, the Lord Jesus Christ and John said this:

John 8:45-47 MKJV
(45) “And because I tell you the truth, you do not believe Me.
(46) Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do you not believe Me?
(47) He who is of God hears God's Words. Therefore you do not hear them because you are not of God.”

“We are of God. He who knows God hears us. The one who is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error” (1 John 4:6 MKJV).

You say: “Please, do NOT simply dismiss this critique as a blind person that just can't understand... Just pray about it and reflect on it asking God to give you humility. If it is wrong, then He won't allow evil to come from honest reflection.

We have prayed, Jake, as you asked. I think you know that not many would respond to your request and do this. We have reflected and have asked for humility.

You're right in that you say He won't allow evil to come our way from our prayer, honest reflection, and the humility He has mercifully, graciously granted us. You are wrong and we must dismiss your arguments as those of “a blind person that just can't understand.”

We've already given you some of these Scriptures. If we corresponded with you further, we would be covering the same territory we have already graciously covered with you for your sake according to the understanding and direction the Lord has given us.

You'll need to go your way where Divinely-engineered circumstances will deal with you and ultimately make known to you that what we're saying to you is true.

He has said to us:

“Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you” (Revelation 3:9 MKJV).

Don't be offended, Jake. Truth is truth; you'll have to deal with it, like it or not. He certainly will deal, and already is dealing, with you. Not pleasant for you - I know, because decades ago I was where you are now, giving the same arguments, and more, out of as much darkness, but His grace saw me through. I know He can do the same for you.

Read my story of what He has done with me, if you will...all parts...with Part 7 to come in the next few months and Part 8 thereafter:

wHaT tHe LoRd HaS dOnE wItH mE

I bless you, my friend, in the Wonderful Name of our Risen Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Almighty God! Bless His Holy Name!

\/
Victor Hafichuk
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Victor Hafichuk » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:21 am



One point you have made consistently is that I 'cannot understand' what yall are saying because God must reveal it to me. Therefore, again I ask what is the purpose of yall's 'ministry'.

The Scriptures are replete with examples of where the Word must be preached though the hearers can't hear. Aren't you aware of how the Lord spoke directly to this matter?

Matthew 13:13-15 MKJV
(13) Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
(14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive;
(15) for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

At one point even many of His disciples walked away, saying, “Who can hear these things?” (John 6:53-6:60)

Paul the apostle preached to those who resisted his message (Acts 18:6 - one example of many). Evidently, God's grace wasn't with them to hear or they would have heard.

Isaiah was to go and speak until there was nobody left to speak to (Isaiah 6:8-12).

Ezekiel was told to preach though they wouldn't believe (Ezekiel 2:1-7).

Jeremiah received the Word of God for the people and was told they wouldn't believe it, but to speak it all the same (Jeremiah 42). Not only did he speak what he received from God for them, he told them they wouldn't believe him though they said they would. He was right; they didn't believe.

Instead of believing the prophets of God, the unbelieving hearers stoned them and believed the lying prophets instead.

You're so mistaken and thus in contradiction, Jacob. You go on to contradict yourself in your first paragraph (and truly, throughout all your correspondence):

The Catholic belief is that people are able to help guide others to Christ in so far as the grace of God is active in both parties and they are cooperating with that grace.

If people don't believe you, what's the point of YOUR preaching?

Do you not suppose it's possible there are those who have heard our preaching and have been delivered from the power of sin by coming to have faith in Jesus Christ? The Word we preach can bear, and has born, fruit.

Romans 10:14-17 MKJV
(14) How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without preaching?
(15) And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!"
(16) But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
(17) Then faith is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

I know very well what Catholic belief is. Your problem is you don't know the Truth of God, which I do know, and which Catholicism, by nature, withstands. You don't believe me because you're Catholic by nature.

While it isn't our business to make the seed sprout and grow, it is our business to sow, and so we sow that perchance God will show mercy to chosen vessels of honor and give the increase. Vessels of dishonor do not prove illegitimacy of our preaching the Gospel. You greatly err, Jacob, being in terrible, though to you, handsome, darkness.

John 9:39-41 MKJV
(39) And Jesus said, I have come into this world for judgment, that they who do not see [hear] might see [hear], and that they who see [hear] might be made blind [deaf].
(40) And those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, Are we also blind [deaf]?
(41) Jesus said to them, If you were blind [deaf], you would have no sin. But now you say, We see [hear]. Therefore your sin remains.

However, yall's transfer of truth seems to be based entirely on God. This would make evangelization useless.

That is so contrary to God and His Word, it takes my breath away, but still understandable because I was there...42 years ago. You aren't the only Catholic in such darkness. They all are, or they wouldn't be Catholic. With Jesus, we say:

“Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.” (John 5:19 MKJV)

You better believe ours is to rely entirely on God for “transfer of truth.” Without Him, we can do nothing. But you don't believe Him or what we've written to you by His will, grace and power, not at all...or do you? :-)

Romans 8:6-8 MKJV
(6) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
(7) because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
(8) So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jacob, you say, “I will continue to search for truth as I hope y'all do as well.

To you, with Philip, we say:

“Philip found Nathanael and said to him, We have found Him (The Truth) of whom Moses wrote in the Law and the Prophets, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” (John 1:45 MKJV)

Are you truly searching for truth? Perhaps you are, however, it seems to me you're stuck in satisfaction with Catholic doctrine. Not a problem for the Lord - I was there, too. I couldn't appreciate the Truth spoken to me, either, but He made it happen. I was single and in my mid-twenties at the time.

I know you believe this to be an evil trap; however, I spend far too many hours on my knees for that to be the case.

Many people of various religions spend many hours “on their knees” and receive nothing. On the other hand, grace came to Zacchaeus, Mary Magdalene, Lydia, Saul of Tarsus and so many others. You have yet to discover and receive what all these have.

In seeking after the Lord, I also spent time in prayer and 3 days in fasting and He soon appeared to me and lifted me up out of a horrible pit and set me on high. I have known Him and loved Him ever since, by His love in me.

'Nevertheless, not my will, but [His] be done'.

To that I say, Amen! Let it surely be so!

You do not have to search very hard to find a hate of the Catholic Church in the secular world. We both know from Scripture that the world is wrong and attacks the followers of Christ as it attacks Christ Himself.

We are not Catholic, yet much hated, every bit as much by Catholics as anyone else, I will add, especially by my family, immediate and extended. You need only access the attacks on the internet and get a small taste of what comes at us daily.

On the other hand, JW's and Mormons, Bahai and others are also much hated and persecuted. Today, everyone is hated and persecuted by Muslims, Jews especially.

Why are you cooperating with the world in their persecution of the Catholic Church. Do you actually think the world just happened to get this one right?

Was Jesus “cooperating with the world” when He spoke against the dominant religious groups of His day or was He simply speaking to warn them and those potentially influenced by them?

“And Jesus said to them, Take heed, and beware the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:6 MKJV)

God calls all people into ONE family, not several. It is time we put aside childish things and began to seek cooperation and peace instead of division and animosity.

Indeed, He will make one family, one fold. Then do put away your childish things and follow Him without the gate, without the city, Jacob, if you would be joined to His family.

Hebrews 13:12-14 MKJV
(12) Therefore Jesus also, so that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
(13) Therefore let us go forth to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.
(14) For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Hint: “No continuing city.” Not even, and especially not, Rome, or the Pope of Rome, that which is so highly esteemed among men, the city so recognized by the multitudes of the earth.

Do you really think that the Path of Truth is capable of taking down this Kingdom of God.

Yes, Jacob, we do because we know Jesus said, “Be of good cheer for I have overcome the world,” which includes the Catholic Church. He has overcome the world in me, as He has for all His chosen ever since the day He spoke those words. The Truth prevails over all. As to the externals of this world, you will see Rome fall by Islam. It already is falling. Come out while you still can, if you can. By His power and grace alone you can.

May Truth find us and embrace us intimately.

Amen, Jacob, amen! May God grant it, and I know He will!

You might wish to join our Sabbath day chat, Saturdays at 12 Noon MST. We gather with other believers from around the world in an open and free discussion for about five to six hours generally (people come and go). You may participate, ask questions of anyone, answer, or be silent and observe; your choice, Lord willing. You're welcome to join us. What would you think of that?

Victor, your friend and not your persecutor.
Victor Hafichuk
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Jacob » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:21 am



Victor,

Thank you for your last email. I do believe we have certainly entered the realm of repetition in our correspondence. I will continue to search for truth. Truth is who I love (I know yall disagree). One point you have made consistently is that I "cannot understand" what yall are saying because God must reveal it to me. Therefore, again I ask what is the purpose of yall's "ministry". If yall are incapable of opening people's eyes to the truth and it is solely based on God's intervention, then your wasting your breath, time and money. The Catholic belief is that people are able to help guide others to Christ in so far as the grace of God is active in both parties and they are cooperating with that grace. People are the hands and feet of Christ in the world today. However, yall's transfer of truth seems to be based entirely on God. This would make evangelization useless.

I have enjoyed our correspondence. As I stated early, I will continue to search for truth as I hope y'all do as well. By the grace of God, maybe one day we will be in agreement about who Christ is and who the true Bride of Christ is. The more I learn and spend time in the Church, the more I fall in love with Her. I know you believe this to be an evil trap; however, I spend far too many hours on my knees for that to be the case. It is only by the grace of God that I am Catholic and as long as He gives me a love and a need to remain Catholic I will do so. I do try earnestly to be humbly open. I am only Catholic because it is where I have found truth. The moment that this stops happening, is the moment I stop practicing my Catholic faith. However, I do not see that ever occurring. "Nevertheless, not my will, but [His] be done".

Although God always operates above our rational ability, this does not mean that He operates contrary to it. Faith cooperates with and completes reason. It goes where reason cannot. A famous CATHOLIC saint stated: "Credo ut intelligam" (I believe that I may understand). If your faith seems incoherent with natural reason or contrary to it, then your faith is misplaced. Faith is greater than reason and certainly more powerful than reason, but never contrary to it. Both are gifts from God.

The world persecutes the Catholic Church relentlessly. It bombards the ancient truths that have been held for so long as "outdated" and "controlling". The wold chastises those that preach against homosexual acts, abortion, contraception, premarital sex.... It is the priests that are mocked and the Catholic Churches that are often infiltrated and blasphemed by outlandish hippies... The radical ISIS muslims have sworn to take over Rome, the center of Catholicism. You do not have to search very hard to find a hate of the Catholic Church in the secular world. We both know from Scripture that the world is wrong and attacks the followers of Christ as it attacks Christ Himself. Why are you cooperating with the world in their persecution of the Catholic Church. Do you actually think the world just happened to get this one right? Do you think Christ meant the world would be wrong about all kinds of things except their stance against the Catholic Church? God calls all people into ONE family, not several. It is time we put aside childish things and began to seek cooperation and peace instead of division and animosity. Your fight against the Church, although well-intentioned, is misplaced and erroneous in both the manner in which you combat the Church and the content you use to do so. Please quit participating in the actions and words of the world. As Christ told Peter, "the gates of hell will not prevail" against the Kingdom that Christ established, who gave the keys to Peter. You cannot destroy the Catholic Church as you and the world so intensely want. She has withstood the test and enmity of Kingdoms, nations, armies, religions, time, hate, lies, sin, evil, kings, fascists, communists, dictators... that have come from without and within. Do you really think that the Path of Truth is capable of taking down this Kingdom of God. Of course, you would not call it that. I do not mean to offend as you also do not mean to. I do not mean to be abrupt or come across as angry in any way b/c I am not. However, as you mentioned, "truth is truth and you'll have to deal with it, like it or not." That was well stated and true. I am glad that you prayed and tried to be open in so far as you did. I did the same thing.

I will continue to do this as I hope you do as well. Stay in contact and may God richly bless you and your family this Easter season. May Truth find us and embrace us intimately.

God bless,
Jacob
Crux stat dum volvitur mundum.
Jacob
 

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Jacob » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:07 am



Victor,

To your first point, I agree that people preached and not everybody was converted. I agree with that completely the Scriptures are full of that as you pointed out. They are also full of examples of where people's preaching leads them to Christ. Acts is a great book for this topic.

I think we have a misunderstanding in the argument. I was led to believe that you did not think y'all could be efficacious in y'all's preaching. Apparently, you do believe that your preaching can be efficacious which I agree with. I was under the impression it was ONLY God that could lead somebody to truth in y'all's mind. You misunderstand me. Yes, clearly God is absolutely essential and nothing happens or exists without Him. I would never argue that, that is silly.

However, God does work in and through us. He does allow our actions to be efficacious. Therefore, our preaching does affect people or at least can as long as the people are cooperating with God's grace. Your last letter corrected my misunderstanding of what y'all believe. Now I see that y'all do believe y'all's preaching can be effective. This is the point I was trying to make. God is not the ONLY one that leads people; He uses us, which means we play a role in His plan as well. This ONLY happens in accord with His grace, as I have repeatedly stated throughout our correspondence and as the Catholic Church has taught for 2000 years. This was my only point regarding that topic.

Yes, we do strive to rely entirely on God; however, we still must act. God's grace does not negate free will. Free will leads to real consequences... I think in the end, we are saying the same thing concerning this point, which would be a refreshing common ground to share with you.

In regards to people not listening to truth and therefore must not have God's grace, I answer: You have no idea whether they are in contact with God's grace in some way or another. At best, we can say that IF they are in contact with God's grace, they are not cooperating with it because of pride, selfishness, idolotry, blindness or whatever it might be.

Be careful when discussing God's grace Victor because suggesting that they do not have any could be taken as limiting God's generosity with grace. I believe God is constantly pouring His grace upon us and all around us (from His infinite Goodness); however, we are often blind to it, don't care, or too sinful to respond and cooperate with it.

You said I am Catholic by nature: I have no idea what that means. I am human by nature. I am Catholic by choice and the grace of God. Through Baptism, I am a child of God, which has cleansed my human nature, but at this point I am just trying to figure out what your point in saying that inaccurate statement was.

Well, it is true that people spend a great deal on their knees without ever coming to know Christ in His Person. However, I spend hours in prayer, yet, I never once said that I do not receive anything. I do. Prayer is the only reason I am still Christian. It has been my lifeline, my strength, my support. I see God working in my life through prayer. I see my own slow conversion from having various kinds of temptation, habits, vices...to growing in virtue and love of God. I see Him at work in me. I see a growing love for Truth and for the people of God. I see a greater zeal rise within me to fight harder and smarter against the evils of this world so as to be a good worker and servant in the vineyard of the Lord. God comes to people in His own way and His own time as you know.

So, I am not looking for a story in my own life like Mary Magdalene or Saul had. I am looking for my own story, the one He has had in His mind from the beginning of time. God is with me and for you to claim that He isn't is both ignorant and a preconceived assumption (which of course you claim to be divine revelation).

The only possible way you could ever think that y'all are hated and rejected by the world as much as the Catholic Church is hated and rejected by the world is because you must live under a rock. How many times has the leaders of ISIL told y'all they are going to storm your organization? You got emails that are hate filled. Maybe even a great number of them. I am talking about Kingdoms and nations, monarchs, dictators, totalitarinists... that have tried to destroy us militaristically for well over a thousand years, yet the Church stands strong by the grace of God. I am talking about Muslims throughout centuries, Nazis, Russians, Communists, Socialists, Fascists, Romans, Gauls, Barbarians, Huns, and several others, yet the Church stands strong by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

We have had terribly sinful priests and popes, schisms and heresies that have done more for the devil than for advancing the Kingdom of God, yet the Church stands strong by the grace of the Holy Spirit. I am talking about several different flavors of Protestantism, the Path of Truth included, Atheists, Agnostics, Scientists, Mathematicians, Hippies...(I am sure that you will dismiss this argument as lacking truth; however, an unbiased and honest view of history certainly agrees with me.) How many movies have ridiculed the Path of Truth organization because there are countless that mock, accuse, and threaten the Catholic Church, yet, by the help of the Holy Spirit, She stands strong.

My point is not to illustrate that we are more hated than yall (though it may seem so and obviously we are), that is stupid. My point is to demonstrate to you that we are very hated in the world and by the world as Christ prophesied. Therefore, quit joining the world and start fighting with us. Move beyond your own bias and misconceptions and aim your zeal towards those that mock the existence of God or those that have sworn to kill all Christians...

No. Jesus was not cooperating with the world when He spoke out against the major religions, they were accepted by the world. Clearly, this is a ridiculous argument. The Jews nor the pagan religions were persecuted at that time. It wasn't until a generation after Christ's death that the Jews were persecuted again.

Victor, I am happy that you use Scripture and Christ's life constantly throughout your arguments. It does show that you have spent time with this incredible Book. However, you misuse it constantly in order to make your argument.

This is a perfect example. Christ did go against the world and the Pagan religions; however, He didn't go against Judaism. He fought the evil within that religion. Any accurate study of the Bible reveals Christ fulfilling this Religion. The Jews are our fathers in faith. He didn't reject or abandon it, He brought it to its completion through the will of God the Father. He is the fulfillment of the Jewish prophesies of the Old Testament.

Yes, The Pharisees and Saducees were mostly corrupt at that time; however, that has nothing to do with Christ speaking out against Judaism as a religion. He also told people to obey what they say and not what they do.

Thank you for the invite to that live session. I would like to get on that sometime. Let me know what I need to in order to gain access. I do not know which Saturday I will be able to; however, I certainly plan on joining it at some point. That sounds great.

Lastly, I would like to apologize on behalf of any Catholic that has treated y'all with anything less than charity. I am sorry if y'all have felt hate or some form of malice from Catholics. Clearly, that is not in accord with the Gospel, nor is it okay. I feel as if we ought to be fighting on the same side and the devil has got us so turned around sometimes that we start fighting each other. May we never lose sight or focus of the fierce spiritual battle that is roaring all around us. May God grant y'all blessings.

God bless,
Jacob
Crux stat dum volvitur mundum.
Jacob
 

Re: NO protestant church or denomination exists without the Catholic Church.

Postby Victor Hafichuk » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:58 pm



Hi Jacob!

“Thank you for the invite to that live session. I would like to get on that sometime. Let me know what I need to in order to gain access. I do not know which Saturday I will be able to; however, I certainly plan on joining it at some point. That sounds great.”

I'm forwarding this to Sara and she'll give you the details. Our next meeting is tomorrow at 12 noon MST. You'll need Java. Lord willing, we'll see you soon!

Sara, could you send the info to Jake toute de suite? Thanks.

\/
Victor Hafichuk
 
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