Jesus Is Not Our Savior

Who is Jesus Christ? Whom do we preach?
See our complete section here.

Jesus Is Not Our Savior

Postby Stephen » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:50 pm



(This is an archived correspondence at The Path of Truth. We have sent notification to the correspondent.)


Although you spent a great deal of time and verbiage explaining your position, which I agree with, if you are saying that Jesus (not Jesus Christ since that is not his name. i do not know why people call him that?) is not our savior.

I'm not criticizing any man made religion, all of the known religions on this rock are indeed man made. The Jews are Gods chosen people so I'm thinking there is something special about them that God knows and we don't.

I read the Book of Hosea. I got a verbatim translation from some jewish friends of mine and verified the text as being the original, so, I'm comfortable in reading it and accepting it in the way I understand it.

In this book, God himself, not Hosea, not some man, not some priest or other clergy, but God himself said that besides him, there is no other savior.
So I gotta take it that God (or Hashem as he introduced himself to Adam) is saying he is the one and only Savior. This kinda takes Jesus out of that role in my opinion. But I'm not judging Jesus, I'm just taking Gods word for it.

Now Jesus, whomever he was/is, was a very important person in religious history and did much/many great things during his short 3 year teaching. He was born, we read about him till he was 12 and then he disappears and then 18 years later he reappears at age 30 to start preaching. I really don't understand his life, but I'm not the person to judge anyone, just don't understand it. What did he do during those 18 years?

I believe taking/using Gods own words to make your case is easier than all the other quotes you had or used. If God says it, I can accept it and try to live a good life and expect to be rewarded for doing so.

If people choose Jesus over God, let them. It's their choice and free will.
If they choose Gods words over all others then in my opinion they will be safe in their beliefs and only need to live a good life.

Stephen
Stephen
 

Re: Jesus Is Not Our Savior

Postby Paul Cohen » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:56 pm



Hi Stephen,

You're not making sense in your letter. You say of the prophet Hosea's book:

In this book, God himself, not Hosea, not some man, not some priest or other clergy, but God himself said that besides him, there is no other savior.
So I gotta take it that God (or Hashem as he introduced himself to Adam) is saying he is the one and only Savior. This kinda takes Jesus out of that role in my opinion. But I'm not judging Jesus, I'm just taking Gods word for it.


How can you assume that Hosea spoke for God, but Jesus and those who wrote the Gospels didn't? On what basis do you stand on such an opinion? Give us the facts, or admit you don't have them, which it's clear to us is the case.

Regarding a couple misconceptions on your part: We don't choose Jesus over God, because Jesus Christ Is God. Jesus' words are God's words, and vice versa.

“Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves” (John 14:10-11 MKJV).

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 KJV
(1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
(2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
(3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
(4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And as for what Jesus did between the ages of 12 and 30 - that's not important or it would have been recorded for us. What's important is what He did, not only during the three years of His earthly ministry, but especially afterwards, when, after laying down His life, He took it up again, rising from the dead and ascending to Heaven, from whence He gave and still gives His Spirit to those who believe in Him.

Jesus Christ lives and rules over Heaven and earth. He has met with us, taught us and resides in us. Our lives are His because of what He has done and Who He is, God come in the flesh. You're meeting Him here. The One Who spoke through Hosea speaks through us, and what's more, He gives His life to those who hear and believe.

You don't believe? Here's why:

2 Corinthians 4:3-7 KJV
(3) But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4) In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, Who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(5) For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
(6) For God, Who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
(7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

You sum things up:

If they choose Gods words over all others then in my opinion they will be safe in their beliefs and only need to live a good life.

So how's that working out for you? Are you safe in your beliefs, living a good life? Immediately following your words I see the picture for your business. Is that safe and life-promoting? It was pictures like that and the message they embodied which, lacking responsible adult supervision, led me down the destructive path of fornication. Not good at all, Stephen.

You're altogether missing the message of God through Hosea:

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…” (Hosea 4:6 KJV).

“They have deeply corrupted themselves as in the days of Gibeah: He will remember their iniquity; He will punish their sins. Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season, I saw your fathers. But they came to Baal-peor and consecrated themselves to the thing of shame, and became detestable like the thing they loved” (Hosea 9:9-10 ESV).

“Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? Understanding, and he shall know them? For the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them; but sinners shall fall in them” (Hosea 14:9 MKJV).

“But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but Me, and besides Me there is no Savior [Jesus Christ is the LORD our God]. It was I Who knew you in the wilderness, in the land of drought” (Hosea 13:4-5 ESV).

By the way, many are the references to Jesus Christ in the New Testament...at least 188 in all but 1 book. Now you know why He's referred to as Jesus Christ...Jesus the Christ...Yeshua HaMashiach in Hebrew.

Know and understand, Stephen, that being good is impossible for you. Jesus Christ said so (Matthew 19:26). Unless you believe on Him, you have no life and no hope:

“He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him” (John 3:36 MKJV).

“He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:12 MKJV).

You're right when you say one is on the right track when believing God's Word. Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Paul Cohen
www.ThePathofTruth.com
Paul Cohen
 
Posts: 492
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:01 am

Re: Jesus Is Not Our Savior

Postby Stephen » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:12 pm



You rely too much on christian church re-writes instead of historical documents that have been translated verbatim. I have them at my request from a very old line of Jewish theologians.

Jesus did not write the gospels. Where on earth did you ever hear or read that? Another christian belief that is not true?

You seem to be the typical 'judgmental' christian. Living on the churches words, not Gods.

That's okay. It's your life not mine.

If a picture and a company name bother you, then you are very much entrenched in a religion that has created evil, suspicion and distrust in your life.

My life is great, because God is in it.

I'm 64, retired at 52, have the aches and pains most guys at my age have and am close to my God and Savior.

I do not have any intention to recruit people away from or to anything, as christians do.

I just love to read, understand, ask questions and in the end always believe/love/trust my God and Savior.

This seems to be a huge problem for christians. Their faith is based on the church, not God.

Just read over this:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ ... bility.htm

Something from the vatican and Raymond Brown. It has a lot of Vatican approved statements that may make it clearer why I and many others question 'man made religions'.

God never said he was Jesus and Jesus never said he was God.

Look for these specific words in your documents, they are only there when you extrapolate, which is not something God looks at very kindly. He actually warned us to never change his words and christianity has done that from day one.

Sorry to hear from you in a tone that is so pissy faced and judgmental.

Maybe getting closer to God will help you.

Stephen
Stephen
 

Re: Jesus Is Not Our Savior

Postby Stephen » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:42 pm



As a follow up, I'm headed to the golf course soon, try not quoting so much 'stuff' to support a simple question. It has been proven in most debates that the person that has less to say for themselves and more to quote from others, actually has little to say.

I used Hosea as a reference, you asked why believe him, and yet you tried to quote Hosea later on.

This shows a confused thought process.

Go to the OT, use just the words as written, verbatim, and read it (unless you are claiming you already have. which in that case you must not have been paying attention). If you do not see the very same problems as I and millions of others have seen in the modern day christian movement then you will never. The Vatican knows of the problems in the NT and has allowed R. Brown to expound on them with the approval of the Pope/Vatican. Why is it uncomfortable to hear questions? The Pope/Vatican did not have problems with it, and they are supposed to be the head of the christian church worldwide aren't they?

And as far as your past problems whether they be adultery, pedophilia or whatever, God forgives us all.

I am in God and God is in me as well. I am a child of God. I have the spark of God within me as we humans all do. Without Gods spark/spirit within us we would not exist. I am a male child of God. I am a son of God. So are you, assuming you are male. If you are a female then you are a daughter of God. We are all children of God. I would have thought you knew this already.

I have no issues with christianity or Jesus. I love Jesus very much. He did many great things here on earth just as all the great prophets and leaders of the Hebrew/Jewish nation.

The christian church has changed documents over the past centuries to suit their needs. This is not my opinion, this is just fact. Read R. Browns responses from the Vatican.

If you do not believe in the book of Hosea, please don't quote from it. If you do believe in the book of Hosea then you must believe when God said 'besides me there is no Savior' he was speaking the truth.

God nowhere ever says he and Jesus are one in the same. This is a creation of the church (trinity) to associate Jesus with God as as equal.

NO ONE IS EQUAL TO GOD.

God is my savior.
Stephen
 

Re: Jesus Is Not Our Savior

Postby Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:51 am



“Now hear this, O foolish people and without heart; who have eyes and see not; who have ears and hear not” (Jeremiah 5:21 MKJV).

Is there any point in talking to a fool such as yourself, Stephen? Not if we're expecting you to understand. God knows you don't and won't. Nevertheless, you need to hear these things in order to be judged by Him, while others are edified.

You say: “If you do not see the very same problems as I and millions of others have seen in the modern day christian movement then you will never.

We have nothing whatsoever to do with the “modern day Christian movement,” as you call it. I never have; I'm Jewish, and came to know the Messiah by His direct intervention. When I met Victor in Israel in 1979, he and his wife had been taken out of the religious works of men for several years already.

You say, in all ignorance: “The Pope/Vatican did not have problems with it, and they are supposed to be the head of the christian church worldwide aren't they?

The Pope and Vatican have nothing to do with Jesus Christ, and you wouldn't make such a stupid remark, identifying us as something we're clearly not, had you bothered reading about who we are and what we believe before opening your mouth.

Victor Hafichuks Testimony
Catholicism
wHaT tHe LoRd HaS dOnE wItH mE

You say:

If you do not believe in the book of Hosea, please don't quote from it. If you do believe in the book of Hosea then you must believe when God said 'besides me there is no Savior' he was speaking the truth.

Who said I don't believe the book of Hosea? I didn't. All I said is what makes you assume the book of Hosea is from God while the Gospels and Christ are not? The point of quoting from Hosea is that I believe what he wrote, whereas you don't. You don't believe him at all, or the testimony of God. And didn't I tell you that God IS our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ?

God nowhere ever says he and Jesus are one in the same. This is a creation of the church (trinity) to associate Jesus with God as as equal.

NO ONE IS EQUAL TO GOD…

God never said he was Jesus and Jesus never said he was God.

“For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. There is no end of the increase of His government and peace on the throne of David, and on His Kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will do this” (Isaiah 9:6-7 MKJV).

“And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born” (Zechariah 12:10 MKJV).

John 8:56-58 ESV
(56) Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
(57) So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
(58) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

John 5:18-27 MKJV
(18) Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the Sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God.
(19) Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
(20) For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all the things that He Himself does. And He will show Him greater works than these, so that you may marvel.
(21) For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son of Man makes alive whomever He wills.
(22) For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
(23) so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father Who sent Him.
(24) Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him Who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
(25) Truly, truly, I say to you, The hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself,
(27) and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

John 14:8-11 MKJV
(8) Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
(9) Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
(10) Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
(11) Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.

“And worshiping Him [Jesus], they returned to Jerusalem with great joy” (Luke 24:52 MKJV).

Jesus is equal to God because He is God. That's why His followers worshipped Him. There is no trinity. There is only one God, who took on human form and became our Savior because no man born in sin could fulfill the role.

“And He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. Therefore His own arm brought salvation to Him; and His righteousness sustained Him” (Isaiah 59:16 MKJV).

“And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was no one to uphold; therefore My own arm has saved for Me; and My fury upheld Me” (Isaiah 63:5 MKJV).

There is no trinity. Obviously you're not reading our writings, such as The Asininity of the Trinity.

You ask:

Jesus did not write the gospels. Where on earth did you ever hear or read that?

Never red, heard, or said it. What I asked was how did you know Hosea spoke for God, but Jesus didn't, or those who wrote the Gospels? This is the second such occasion that shows how careless and irresponsible you really are. You don't pay attention to what's said and readily jump to evil conclusions, because your eye is evil.

You say:

I have no issues with christianity or Jesus. I love Jesus very much. He did many great things here on earth just as all the great prophets and leaders of the Hebrew/Jewish nation…

God is my savior.

You're a very confused man, Stephen. Here you are, making such statements while arguing against what you call Christianity and denying that Jesus is the Messiah, the Lamb of God Who died for our sins and rose from the dead for our justification. God is not your Savior and you aren't saved. Far from it.

You say:

If a picture and a company name bother you, then you are very much entrenched in a religion that has created evil, suspicion and distrust in your life…"

And as far as your past problems whether they be adultery, pedophilia or whatever, God forgives us all.

You're also a very wicked man. You promote fornication and then say “God forgives us all.” You're not forgiven at all, because unrepentant and proud of your sin. You're not born of God - you're of your father the Devil. We say to you what Jesus said to the Jews who didn't believe their prophets, like Hosea.

John 8:42-45 EMTV
(42) Therefore Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth and have come from God; nor have I come from Myself, but He sent Me.
(43) Why do you not understand what I say? Because you are unable to hear My word.
(44) You are of your father the Devil, and the lusts of your father you desire to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
(45) But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
www.ThePathofTruth.com
Paul Cohen and Victor Hafichuk
 


Return to Jesus Christ is God

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron